[Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
Roger Pihlaja
rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Tue, 27 Aug 2002 22:46:08 -0400
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Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced HelmSteve,
First of all, let me admit something. I absolutely hate teaching people =
how to sail in light air. The effect of everything that one does in =
light air sailing is subtle & there is virtually no feedback thru the =
controls. In addition, it's very easy to screw everything up by not =
sitting still on the boat or steering too much or not reacting properly =
to a wind shift. Doing any of these can cause the weak laminar flow to =
separate from the sails &/or hull & cause a turbulent stall, which then =
requires several boatlengths for the stalled flow to reattach itself & =
resume laminar flow. Basically, you must first learn how to sail & =
adjust the sail shaping controls in heavier air where there is some =
feedback thru the controls & the flow patterns are more robust. Then, =
you can apply what you've learned to light air. But, you are still =
adjusting the controls without any feedback because you simply "know" =
what the correct shape looks like. It's sort of a "Luke, Close Your =
Eyes & Feel The Force" kind of thing". If you were hoping for it to =
jump up & bite you, then please realize that's not going to happen. I =
don't think it's possible to teach this skill hands off via the =
internet. It would be very helpful for all of you that are having this =
problem to get out on the water with an expert sailer & have them show =
you what to do in a hands on learning environment.
Several people on the list have reported light air lee helm with the =
175% genoa & the IMF mainsail. From a design standpoint, this sail plan =
configuration is certainly the one that would be expected to have this =
problem. It's got the biggest headsail & the smallest, least powerful =
mainsail. Dynamic Equilibrium does not have this sail plan =
configuration, so I can't give you specific instructions what to do. =
But, if it were my boat with this problem & the adjustments I suggested =
in my previous post didn't work, then I would get first get back to =
basics & verify that Newton's Laws of Motion still work. I would =
lengthen the forestay to the maximum adjustment possible, shorten the =
backstays to match, & then see if I still had light air lee helm. If I =
still had lee helm, then I would start adding shackles to the forestay =
to lengthen it even more. Don't worry about the appearance of the mast =
rake, you've got to get the sail plan's center of effort somewhere in =
the right ballpark first. Once I had the light air lee helm banished, =
then I would see how the feel of the helm changes when the wind speed =
increases. You may like what you find, but you may just as likely find =
you've introduced a strong dose of heavy air weather helm. In that =
case, you're going to have to live with a crossover between lee helm & =
weather helm & make a decision how much of each you want & what =
windspeed you want the crossover point to occur at.
Light air lee helm may just be the favored mode of the 175% genoa & IMF =
mainsail sailplan configuration.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Steve Alm=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
Roger, Joe, Mary Lou, others,
I while back I posted a question regarding my lee helm. I have the =
IMF /175. When I'm under full sail in light winds, I usually have a lee =
helm. Although I agree that this is not a big problem in light air, it =
still just doesn't feel right. I tried raking my mast back. =
Disregarding the advice to go in half inch increments, I lengthened the =
forestay about an inch and three quarters; so much that I can easily see =
the aft rake of the mast when I stand at the dock looking at the boat =
from the side. Amazingly, I noticed little, if any, real change in my =
helm! I've experimented with the rudder rake and concluded that it =
works best if it's all the way forward. Anything else and the helm gets =
heavy and harder to steer. I've experimented with the CB and discovered =
that if I pull it up to about half, this helps but then I assume I'm =
losing my course to the lee. For this discussion, I'm referring to =
sailing upwind.
I've also been trying to correct the problem with the trim of the =
sails. Sometimes I get it right (I'll settle for a neutral helm) but it =
always seems to take a lot of tweaking. It's a given that I'm not an =
expert sailor, but most of the other boats I've sailed have a natural =
weather helm and you have to try hard to create a lee helm. My boat =
tends to be the other way around. Under full sail with the IMF/175, the =
jib is certainly overpowering the main and this just may be an inherent =
problem with this sail configuration and maybe it simply requires all =
this tweaking to get it right. Roger, you mentioned leech telltails. =
Can you tell us more about this? Exactly where are they positioned and =
what are they supposed to do or not do? How about leech telltails on =
the jib? I have luff yarns on the jib but if I reef in at all, of =
course, they're gone.
Slim
S/V Fandango
On 8/27/02 7:12 AM, "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402@centurytel.net> wrote:
Mary Lou, Joe, Et All,
If you are having lee helm with the 175% genoa in light air, then =
consider trying the following before you lengthen the forestay:
Slack off slightly on the mainsail's outhaul on the boom. This will =
increase the fullness or maximum draft in the mainsail's shape. In =
light air, increasing the draft on the mainsail will power it up =
relative to the genoa, which should move the sail plan's center of =
effort aft & thus decrease your lee helm. (& make you go faster as =
well!) The downside is that the new sail shape will be less forgiving =
of sail trimming & helmsman errors. i.e., the "groove" will be =
narrower.
+
Tighten up the mainsail's leech line. This will cause the =
mainsail's leech to curve ("hook") to windward. This will cause the =
mainsail's center of effort to move aft, which will decrease lee helm.
+
Make certain you are using the main sheet & traveller properly. =
Watch your mainsail's leech telltales to be certain you are not =
overtrimming the mainsail, thus causing the airflow to stall. If you =
stall the airflow over the mainsail, the sail plan's center of effort =
will move forward & increase lee helm.
+
Make certain you are not overtrimming the genoa. The exhaust =
airflow coming off an overtrimmed genoa will blanket the mainsail & =
induce the airflow on the leeward side of the mainsail to stall. See =
above bullet point
=20
If these techniques solve your light air lee helm issues; then, it =
will be better than permanently raking the mast further aft, which will =
increase weather helm under all conditions. Remember, these sail shape =
adjustments are subtle & a little bit of sail shape or sail trim change =
can have a significant effect.
Good luck!
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Lou Troy [mailto:mltroy@netreach.net]
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 9:18 PM
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
If you are fighting to keep the boat from falling off the wind you =
have lee=20
helm not weather helm.
With the 175 jib, lee helm can be a real issue. It certainly is on=20
Fretless. In light to moderate winds when we have the full job and =
main out=20
we have lee helm that we can only reduce by furling the jib =
somewhat. In=20
very light air, lee helm isn't an issue and we're glad for the 175. =
We have=20
tightened the back stay as much as we can with the backstay =
adjuster. Our=20
next step is shorten the backstays one more notch so that we have a =
bit=20
more leverage with the adjuster. We are also going to try setting =
the=20
rudder so that it not quite all the way forward. The next step (next =
season) will be to let the jib stay out a notch. Stan suggested =
moving the=20
knot on the centerboard line to let the board drop a bit further. =
That=20
helped a bit.
Any other ideas? We would be happy to hear other suggestions.
Mary Lou
1991 R22 Fretless
Swan Creek, MD / Ft. Washington, PA
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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Steve,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First of all, let me admit =
something. I=20
absolutely hate teaching people how to sail in light air. The =
effect of=20
everything that one does in light air sailing is subtle & =
there is=20
virtually no feedback thru the controls. In addition, it's =
very easy=20
to screw everything up by not sitting still on the boat or steering too =
much or=20
not reacting properly to a wind shift. Doing any=20
of these can cause the weak laminar flow to separate from the sails =
&/or hull & cause a turbulent stall, which then requires several =
boatlengths for the stalled flow to reattach itself & resume laminar =
flow. Basically, you must first learn how to sail & adjust the =
sail=20
shaping controls in heavier air where there is some feedback thru the =
controls=20
& the flow patterns are more robust. Then, you can apply what =
you've=20
learned to light air. But, you are still adjusting the controls =
without=20
any feedback because you simply "know" what the correct shape looks =
like. =20
It's sort of a "Luke, Close Your Eyes & Feel The Force" kind=20
of thing". If you were hoping for it to jump up & bite =
you, then=20
please realize that's not going to happen. I don't think it's =
possible to=20
teach this skill hands off via the internet. It would be very =
helpful=20
for all of you that are having this problem to get out on the water with =
an=20
expert sailer & have them show you what to do in a hands on learning =
environment.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Several people on the list have =
reported light air=20
lee helm with the 175% genoa & the IMF mainsail. From a design =
standpoint, this sail plan configuration is certainly the one that would =
be=20
expected to have this problem. It's got the biggest headsail & =
the=20
smallest, least powerful mainsail. Dynamic Equilibrium does not =
have this=20
sail plan configuration, so I can't give you specific instructions what =
to=20
do. But, if it were my boat with this problem & the =
adjustments I=20
suggested in my previous post didn't work, then I would get first get =
back to=20
basics & verify that Newton's Laws of Motion still =
work. I=20
would lengthen the forestay to the maximum adjustment possible, =
shorten the=20
backstays to match, & then see if I still had light air lee =
helm. =20
If I still had lee helm, then I would start adding shackles to the =
forestay to=20
lengthen it even more. Don't worry about the appearance of the =
mast rake,=20
you've got to get the sail plan's center of effort somewhere in the =
right=20
ballpark first. Once I had the light air lee helm banished, then I =
would=20
see how the feel of the helm changes when the wind speed =
increases. You=20
may like what you find, but you may just as likely find you've =
introduced=20
a strong dose of heavy air weather helm. In that case, =
you're=20
going to have to live with a crossover between lee helm & weather =
helm &=20
make a decision how much of each you want & what windspeed you want =
the=20
crossover point to occur at.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Light air lee helm may just be the =
favored mode of=20
the 175% genoa & IMF mainsail sailplan configuration.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dsalm@mn.rr.com href=3D"mailto:salm@mn.rr.com">Steve Alm</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 27, 2002 =
5:13=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Balanced=20
Helm</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Roger, Joe, Mary Lou, =
others,<BR><BR>I while=20
back I posted a question regarding my lee helm. I have the IMF =
/175.=20
When I=92m under full sail in light winds, I usually have a lee =
helm.=20
Although I agree that this is not a big problem in light air, it =
still=20
just doesn=92t feel right. I tried raking my mast back. =
Disregarding=20
the advice to go in half inch increments, I lengthened the =
forestay=20
about an inch and three quarters; so much that I can easily see the =
aft rake=20
of the mast when I stand at the dock looking at the boat from the =
side.=20
Amazingly, I noticed little, if any, real change in my helm! =
I=92ve=20
experimented with the rudder rake and concluded that it works best if =
it=92s all=20
the way forward. Anything else and the helm gets heavy and =
harder to=20
steer. I=92ve experimented with the CB and discovered that if I =
pull it up=20
to about half, this helps but then I assume I=92m losing my course to =
the lee.=20
For this discussion, I=92m referring to sailing =
upwind.<BR><BR>I=92ve also=20
been trying to correct the problem with the trim of the sails. =
Sometimes=20
I get it right (I=92ll settle for a neutral helm) but it always seems =
to take a=20
lot of tweaking. It=92s a given that I=92m not an expert sailor, =
but most of=20
the other boats I=92ve sailed have a natural weather helm and you have =
to try=20
hard to create a lee helm. My boat tends to be the other way =
around.=20
Under full sail with the IMF/175, the jib is certainly =
overpowering the=20
main and this just may be an inherent problem with this sail =
configuration and=20
maybe it simply requires all this tweaking to get it right. =
Roger, you=20
mentioned leech telltails. Can you tell us more about this?=20
Exactly where are they positioned and what are they supposed to =
do or=20
not do? How about leech telltails on the jib? I have luff =
yarns on=20
the jib but if I reef in at all, of course, they=92re =
gone.<BR><BR>Slim<BR>S/V=20
Fandango<BR><BR><BR><BR>On 8/27/02 7:12 AM, "Roger Pihlaja"=20
<cen09402@centurytel.net> wrote:<BR><BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Mary Lou, Joe, Et=20
All,<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana><BR></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial>If you are having lee helm with the 175% genoa in light =
air, then=20
consider trying the following before you lengthen the=20
forestay:<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana><BR></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial>Slack off slightly on the mainsail's outhaul on the =
boom.=20
This will increase the fullness or maximum draft in the =
mainsail's=20
shape. In light air, increasing the draft on the mainsail will =
power=20
it up relative to the genoa, which should move the sail plan's =
center of=20
effort aft & thus decrease your lee helm. (& make you go =
faster as=20
well!) The downside is that the new sail shape will be less =
forgiving=20
of sail trimming & helmsman errors. i.e., the "groove" =
will be=20
narrower.<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana><BR></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial> +<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Tighten =
up the=20
mainsail's leech line. This will cause the mainsail's leech to =
curve=20
("hook") to windward. This will cause the mainsail's center of =
effort=20
to move aft, which will decrease lee helm.<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial> +<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Make =
certain you are=20
using the main sheet & traveller properly. Watch your =
mainsail's=20
leech telltales to be certain you are not overtrimming the mainsail, =
thus=20
causing the airflow to stall. If you stall the airflow over =
the=20
mainsail, the sail plan's center of effort will move forward & =
increase=20
lee helm.<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana><BR></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial> +<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Make =
certain you are=20
not overtrimming the genoa. The exhaust airflow coming off an=20
overtrimmed genoa will blanket the mainsail & induce the airflow =
on the=20
leeward side of the mainsail to stall. See above bullet=20
point<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DVerdana><BR> <BR></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>If these techniques solve your light air =
lee helm=20
issues; then, it will be better than permanently raking the mast =
further=20
aft, which will increase weather helm under all conditions. =
Remember,=20
these sail shape adjustments are subtle & a little bit of sail =
shape or=20
sail trim change can have a significant =
effect.<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Good=20
luck!<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana><BR></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial>Roger Pihlaja<BR>S/V Dynamic =
Equilibrium<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Mary Lou Troy =
[mailto:mltroy@netreach.net]<BR>Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 9:18 =
PM<BR>To:=20
rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org<BR>Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced=20
Helm<BR><BR><BR>If you are fighting to keep the boat from falling =
off the=20
wind you have lee <BR>helm not weather helm.<BR><BR>With the 175 =
jib, lee=20
helm can be a real issue. It certainly is on <BR>Fretless. In light =
to=20
moderate winds when we have the full job and main out <BR>we have =
lee helm=20
that we can only reduce by furling the jib somewhat. In <BR>very =
light air,=20
lee helm isn't an issue and we're glad for the 175. We have =
<BR>tightened=20
the back stay as much as we can with the backstay adjuster. Our =
<BR>next=20
step is shorten the backstays one more notch so that we have a bit =
<BR>more=20
leverage with the adjuster. We are also going to try setting =
the=20
<BR>rudder so that it not quite all the way forward. The next step =
(next=20
<BR>season) will be to let the jib stay out a notch. Stan suggested =
moving=20
the <BR>knot on the centerboard line to let the board drop a bit =
further.=20
That <BR>helped a bit.<BR><BR>Any other ideas? We would be happy to =
hear=20
other suggestions.<BR><BR>Mary Lou<BR>1991 R22 Fretless<BR>Swan =
Creek, MD /=20
Ft. Washington, PA<BR><BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT=20
face=3DVerdana><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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