[Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails

Rik Sandberg rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:11:50 -0500


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MessageRoger,

If I remember right, his message was at the bottom, under your message. =
I didn't see it right away either.

Rik
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Roger Pihlaja=20
  To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
  Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails


  Ed,

  Did you want to ask me something or were just sending me a copy of my =
own post?

  Roger
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Ed Kroposki=20
    To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
    Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:18 AM
    Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails



      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: Roger Pihlaja=20
      To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
      Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 5:55 AM
      Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails


      Ed,

      Probably, but it wouldn't be as simple as sewing a bolt rope into =
the foot of an IMF mainsail.  Does your IMF boom have a slot to accept a =
boltrope?  Of course, attaching the boom & foot together with a boltrope =
would greatly increase the friction in the IMF system, thus making it =
much more difficult to operate.  Even if you had a boltrope on the foot =
of your sail & a boom with a slot to accept the boltrope, I don't think =
it would help the performance very much because the mainsail's shape & =
design is compromised to be compatible with IMF.  The IMF mainsail has =
no battens & no easy way to have battens & still be able to furl the =
sail inside of the mast.  Are you prepared to remove the battens every =
time you want to furl the sail?  Are you prepared to go up the mast in a =
bosun's chair in order to be able to get at the upper battens?  That =
would sort of defeat the purpose of IMF wouldn't it?  The IMF mainsail =
has little if any roach.  Roach: If you drew an imaginary line from the =
head of the sail to the clew, the portion of the sail area outside of =
that line is called the roach.  Sails with no roach are essentially =
triangular in shape when viewed from a side elevation.  Triangular sails =
are very aerodynamically inefficient.  The optimum side elevation =
profile looks more like an ellipse, which implies a considerable amount =
of roach.  But, without battens to support the shape, the roach area of =
the sail will curl hopelessly to windward, thus creating monster weather =
helm & other sail trimming problems.  This is a primary reason why =
battens were originally introduced into mainsail design.

      IMF mainsails were orginally developed for big cruising boats =
being sailed shorthanded, or with inexperienced crew, or by elderly or =
physically unfit crew in order to enable the big mainsails to be safely =
handled.  The 110 square foot mainsail on Dynamic Equilibrium is a =
pretty small sail area & has never been a problem for me to handle.  The =
reduction in sailing performance involved in IMF mainsails is simply not =
acceptable for me.  However, I realize a lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this =
list absolutely love their IMF mainsails.  That's part of the charm of =
the Rhodes 22 & GBI.  You really can have it your way.  Ed, enjoy the =
convenience, safety, & whatever level of performance you have with your =
IMF mainsail because I think you're stuck with it the way it is.=20

      If still you want more boat speed, then I would get a better genoa =
rigged on a modern, 3rd or 4th generation design, roller furler for =
upwind sailing plus a triradial &/or a cruising spinnaker rigged with a =
snuffer sock for downwind work.  These upgrades will give you far more =
bang for your buck than trying to upgrade your IMF mainsail.  Under =
certain sailing conditions, especially when it's puffy, I would think =
the combination of good headsails & the infinite adjustability of an IMF =
mainsail to balance the helm would be very fast.  I'd love to sail on an =
IMF mainsail boat equipped like this.  This setup might very well come =
close to having it all.

      Roger Pihlaja
      S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
        ----- Original Message -----=20
        From: Ed Kroposki=20
        To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
        Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:31 PM
        Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails


        Roger:
               Now for the IMF crowd -- is there anyway to secure the =
main to the boom to maintain shape on the Stan Spitzer design IMF???? =20
                                      Ed k
          ----- Original Message -----=20
          From: Roger Pihlaja=20
          To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
          Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:01 PM
          Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating


          Richard,

          Bullshit!  To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single =
performance oriented sailboat racing class that prefers to use loose =
footed mainsails.  I don't know why Doyle has made this marketing =
decision.  Fortunately, there are plenty of other choices of sailmakers =
& I would run, not walk, away from this idiot at Doyle.

          Roger Pihlaja
          S/V Dynamic eQuilibrium
            ----- Original Message -----=20
            From: R.G. Smith=20
            To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
            Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 2:46 PM
            Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating


            The mainsail on my boat is pretty much shot also.  My boat =
is a re-mfg 1990 and I insisted on the old style spars (non IMF) and the =
sail I have is all that Stan had.  I got in touch with Doyle regarding a =
new main the sail they suggust has 2 full length battens at the head and =
2 partial battens towards the foot.

            The sail they quoted was also loose footed!  When I =
expressed surprise I was told that (Doyle) was no longer building mains =
with bolt ropes along the foot.  There contention is that a loose footed =
sail set's better and last longer.

            Richard Smith

               
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Roger,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If I remember right, his message was at the bottom, =
under your=20
message. I didn't see it right away either.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rik</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net =
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger=20
  Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
 </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 28, =
2002 1:45=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose footed=20
  main sails</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Did you want to ask me something or =
were just=20
  sending me a copy of my own post?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Dkroposki@innova.net =
href=3D"mailto:kroposki@innova.net">Ed=20
    Kroposki</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 28, =
2002 10:18=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose=20
    footed main sails</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
      <A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net=20
      href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
      title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
      </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 25, =
2002 5:55=20
      AM</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Rhodes22-list] Loose=20
      footed main sails</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed,</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Probably, but it wouldn't be as =
simple as=20
      sewing a bolt rope into the foot of an IMF mainsail.&nbsp; =
Does&nbsp;your=20
      IMF boom have a slot to accept a boltrope?&nbsp; Of course, =
attaching the=20
      boom &amp; foot together with a boltrope would greatly increase =
the=20
      friction in the IMF system, thus making it much more difficult to=20
      operate.&nbsp; Even if you had a boltrope on the foot of your sail =
&amp; a=20
      boom with a slot to accept the boltrope, I don't think it would =
help the=20
      performance very much because the mainsail's shape &amp; =
design&nbsp;is=20
      compromised to be compatible with IMF.&nbsp; The IMF mainsail has =
no=20
      battens &amp; no easy way to have battens &amp; still be able to =
furl the=20
      sail inside of the mast.&nbsp; Are you prepared to remove the =
battens=20
      every time you want to furl the sail?&nbsp; Are you prepared to go =
up the=20
      mast in a bosun's chair in order to be able to get at the upper=20
      battens?&nbsp; That would sort of defeat the purpose of IMF =
wouldn't=20
      it?&nbsp; The IMF mainsail has little if any roach.&nbsp; Roach: =
If you=20
      drew an imaginary line from the head of the sail to the clew, the =
portion=20
      of the sail area&nbsp;outside of that line is called the =
roach.&nbsp;=20
      Sails with no roach are essentially triangular in shape when =
viewed from a=20
      side elevation.&nbsp; Triangular sails are very aerodynamically=20
      inefficient.&nbsp; The optimum side elevation&nbsp;profile looks =
more like=20
      an ellipse, which implies a considerable amount of roach.&nbsp; =
But,=20
      without battens to support the shape, the roach area of the sail =
will curl=20
      hopelessly to windward, thus&nbsp;creating monster weather helm =
&amp;=20
      other sail trimming problems.&nbsp; This is a primary =
reason&nbsp;why=20
      battens were originally introduced into mainsail =
design.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>IMF mainsails were orginally =
developed for=20
      big cruising boats&nbsp;being&nbsp;sailed shorthanded, or with=20
      inexperienced crew,&nbsp;or by elderly&nbsp;or physically unfit=20
      crew&nbsp;in order to enable the big mainsails to be&nbsp;safely=20
      handled.&nbsp; The 110 square foot mainsail&nbsp;on Dynamic =
Equilibrium is=20
      a&nbsp;pretty small sail area &amp;&nbsp;has never been a problem =
for me=20
      to handle.&nbsp; The reduction in sailing performance involved in =
IMF=20
      mainsails&nbsp;is simply not acceptable for me.&nbsp; However, I =
realize a=20
      lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this list&nbsp;absolutely love their =
IMF=20
      mainsails.&nbsp; That's part of the charm of the Rhodes 22 &amp;=20
      GBI.&nbsp; You really can have it your way.&nbsp; Ed, enjoy the=20
      convenience, safety, &amp; whatever level of performance you have =
with=20
      your IMF mainsail because I think you're stuck with it the way it=20
      is.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If still you want more boat =
speed, then I=20
      would get a better genoa&nbsp;rigged on&nbsp;a modern, 3rd or 4th=20
      generation design, roller furler for upwind&nbsp;sailing&nbsp;plus =
a=20
      triradial &amp;/or a&nbsp;cruising&nbsp;spinnaker rigged with a =
snuffer=20
      sock for downwind work.&nbsp; These&nbsp;upgrades&nbsp;will give =
you far=20
      more bang for your buck than&nbsp;trying to upgrade&nbsp;your IMF=20
      mainsail.&nbsp; Under certain sailing conditions, especially when =
it's=20
      puffy, I would think the combination of good headsails &amp; the =
infinite=20
      adjustability of an IMF mainsail to balance the helm&nbsp;would be =
very=20
      fast.&nbsp; I'd love to sail on an IMF mainsail boat equipped like =

      this.&nbsp; This setup might very well come close to having it=20
      all.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic =
Equilibrium</FONT></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
      style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
        <DIV=20
        style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
        <A title=3Dkroposki@innova.net =
href=3D"mailto:kroposki@innova.net">Ed=20
        Kroposki</A> </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
        title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
        </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August =
24, 2002=20
        7:31 PM</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose=20
        footed main sails</DIV>
        <DIV><BR></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Roger:</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
        <STRONG>Now for the IMF crowd</STRONG> -- is there anyway to =
secure the=20
        main to the boom to maintain shape on the <EM>Stan Spitzer =
design=20
        IMF????</EM>&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT=20
        face=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
        Ed k</FONT></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
        style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
          <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
          <DIV=20
          style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
          <A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net=20
          href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger Pihlaja</A> =
</DIV>
          <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
          title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
          =
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
          </DIV>
          <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August =
24, 2002=20
          7:01 PM</DIV>
          <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Rhodes22-list] Mast=20
          Bending &amp; PHRF Rating</DIV>
          <DIV><BR></DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Richard,</FONT></DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bullshit!&nbsp; To the best =
of my=20
          knowledge, there isn't a single performance oriented sailboat=20
          racing&nbsp;class that prefers to use loose footed =
mainsails.&nbsp; I=20
          don't know why Doyle has made this marketing decision.&nbsp;=20
          Fortunately, there are plenty of other choices of=20
          sailmakers&nbsp;&amp; I would run, not walk, away from =
this&nbsp;idiot=20
          at Doyle.</FONT></DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic =
eQuilibrium</FONT></DIV>
          <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
          style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
            <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
            <DIV=20
            style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
            <A title=3Dsailnut@asan.com =
href=3D"mailto:sailnut@asan.com">R.G.=20
            Smith</A> </DIV>
            <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
            title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
            </DIV>
            <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
August 24, 2002=20
            2:46 PM</DIV>
            <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[Rhodes22-list]=20
            Mast Bending &amp; PHRF Rating</DIV>
            <DIV><BR></DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
            class=3D718413818-24082002>The mainsail on my boat is pretty =
much shot=20
            also.&nbsp; My boat is a re-mfg 1990&nbsp;and I insisted on =
the old=20
            style spars (non IMF)&nbsp;and the sail I have&nbsp;is all =
that Stan=20
            had.&nbsp; I got in touch with Doyle regarding a new =
main&nbsp;the=20
            sail they suggust&nbsp;has 2 full length battens at the head =
and 2=20
            partial battens towards the foot.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
            class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
            class=3D718413818-24082002>The sail they quoted was also =
loose=20
            footed!&nbsp; When I expressed surprise I was told that =
(Doyle) was=20
            no longer building mains with bolt ropes along the =
foot.&nbsp; There=20
            contention is that a loose footed sail set's better and last =

            longer.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
            class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
            class=3D718413818-24082002>Richard Smith</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
            <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
              <DIV></DIV>
              <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr=20
              align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
            =
size=3D2><BR></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
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