[Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source

[m w]

ww.american hydrogen association has been running h2
vehicles for 30+ years. how so? if this technology
does not exist, perhaps it does but someone doesn't
want the rest of the oil and coal burners to know it.
--- Todd Tavares <sprocket80 at mail.com> wrote:
> Roger,
> 
>     It sounds like a great deal of work.  I thought
> mechanical engineering students did  only fun things
> like make concrete canoes.  :-D
> 
>      Where do you get your energy?  lol  (don't say
> corn)
> 
> Todd
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 02:44:04 -0500
> To: <kroposki at innova.net>,"The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source
> 
> > Rummy, et al,
> > 
> > It all depends where you "draw the box" around the
> ethanol from corn process
> > to tally up the energy costs.  The studies that
> come up with a net negative
> > energy production from turning corn into alcohol
> are penalizing the ethanol
> > process for the energy required to mine the iron
> ore, turn it into steel to
> > make the farm equipment, make the fertilizer,
> pesticides, etc in addition to
> > all the energy associated with actually planting,
> watering, weeding,
> > harvesting, fermenting, and distilling the
> alcohol.  If you do a more
> > realistic energy balance around just the farm and
> the alcohol plant, current
> > practices produce about 1.3X more energy than the
> process consumes & about
> > 1.8 X is fairly easily achievable by widely
> applying the best available
> > technology on the farm and in the alcohol plant. 
> But, the fact is that all
> > energy sources are not created equal.  Liquid
> fuels, like gasoline and
> > alcohol, that can be burned efficiently in today's
> internal combustion
> > engines & handled by the existing liquid fuel
> infrastructure are more
> > valuable to society than say wind power or solar
> power or electricity from
> > coal that require huge stationary power plants,
> electric distribution
> > networks, and electricity storage systems.  Yes,
> in a self-sustaining energy
> > economy, we're going to need all those sources of
> energy & maybe a few more
> > like fusion & fission nuclear.  But, there will
> always be a need for a high
> > energy density, clean burning fuel for use in
> transportation, construction,
> > and farm machinery.  Hydrogen burned in either
> internal combustion engines
> > or fuel cells could serve the same purpose, but
> there are tremendous
> > technical & safety problems and the technology is
> not there yet.
> > 
> > Roger
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 10:33 AM
> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Corny energy source
> > 
> > 
> > > Ron, Rummy,
> > > If you use current dollars and expense this out,
> yes it cost
> > > more to produce energy from corn, or other
> organics.  But, ad in the
> > > what ifs and future costs and reliability
> factors, then it becomes a
> > > concern of national interest.
> > > If you have a rudimentary system in place to
> provide alternative
> > > energy in the event of a problem, then you do
> not have to start from
> > > zero.  So nationally, it is an appropriate
> investment for research.  You
> > > develop the knowledge base and skills to deal
> with a problem.
> > > History has shown that 'pure' research often
> filters down into
> > > practical applications.  While the present costs
> are higher, who is to
> > > say that Roger's idea, research, and applying
> the results, might not be
> > > the thing that makes it cost effective?  Once
> the cost are about equal
> > > then the economies of scale might kick in.
> > > An important factor is jobs and opportunity. 
> Under the current
> > > system the United States is using (wasting)
> economic wealth.  Anyway you
> > > look at it, the money spent buying oil or any
> manufactured item overseas
> > > is wealth in their pocket.  Even if they
> reinvest their wealth in
> > > American stocks, bonds, etc, the wealth belongs
> to them, not us.
> > > The current Republican argument is for free
> trade.  But this is
> > > really transferring an important part of wealth
> away from us.  While
> > > free trade may provide a cheaper product, the
> income of that item that
> > > created the wealth is transferred to someone
> else.
> > > This analogy can now be applied to General
> Boats.  Initially,
> > > Stan made many of the elements of the Rhodes22. 
> He added other items
> > > and manufactured a new item thereby creating a
> thing of new value, a new
> > > wealth creation.  Now, Elton will use the market
> and skills learned with
> > > the Rhodes 22 to sell the Seaward 26.  This no
> longer has the wealth
> > > creation aspect (except to Hake Yachts).  It
> reselling may make money
> > > for the intermediary, but no intrinsic wealth
> creation to the country.
> > > Ed K
> > >
> > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > I just saw an article on this.  A Cornell prof.
> who analysed ethanol
> > > Production initially claimed that 70% more
> energy is used to produce
> > > ethanol than it contains.  After some back and
> forth with industry
> > > consultants he revised the number to 29%.  It's
> a high stakes political
> > > game, as the recent energy bill showed.
> > > A bill with many provisions distasteful to the
> Democrats was supported
> > > by
> > > the Democratic representatives from the farm
> states.
> > >
> > > Ron
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
> > > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >
> > > > Roger,
> > > > Question? Is alcohol made from corn a viable
> energy source? It seems
> > > to me
> > > > that it takes more energy to produce the stuff
> than is realized from
> > > it's
> > > > production. Figuring in the costs of the
> farmer in energy to plant and
> > > harvest (not
> > > > to mention the gov't subsidies to plant it)
> and dry and store and then
> > > turn it
> > > > into alcohol, it seems like a losing battle.
> > > >
> > > > Rummy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> 
> -- 
>
___________________________________________________________
> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
www.rhodes22.org/list


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/