[Rhodes22-list] More diesel and gasoline questions
Michael Meltzer
mjm at michaelmeltzer.com
Wed Dec 10 23:11:57 EST 2003
I know I do, I do not have a warm and fuzzy relation ship with my vendor :-)
MJM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Tavares" <sprocket80 at mail.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:24 PM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] More diesel and gasoline questions
> Rik,
>
> >>idea is top keep the fuel warmed above this cloud point
> temperature, or
> to lower the cloud point temperature by adding chemicals<<<
>
> Are these fuel additive chemicals mixed into the fuel by the fuel vendor, or do you have to measure and pour them into your
tanks at fill up?
>
>
> Roger,
>
> The gasoline stations in my area start in November to dispense "oxygenated" gasoline. Is is supposed to lower emmissions
during the cold winter months.
>
> In my 2000 Mazda B 2500 pick-up with a 2.5L and my 1999 Dodge with a 318 Magnum V-8, the net result is detonation under light
to moderate acceleration (which probably results in higher hydrocarbon emmissions). This means I have to run mid-grade or premium
just to get "normal" performance. Is this a legitimate process, or they trying to increase sales?? Neither vehicles' owner manuals
require running anything higher than regular grade fuel. I commute 100 miles/day and my wife commutes to school 80 miles/day, and
this adds $100 per month onto the fuel bill.
>
> Has anyone else had this problem?
>
> Todd
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rik Sandberg <sanderico at earthlink.net>
> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:19:14 -0600
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] What's The Difference Between #1, #2, #3, ... ,#6 Fuel Oil?
>
> > Roger,
> >
> > Excellent desciption of diesels and why/how they work. Far better than I
> > could have done.
> >
> > The most important point in Rogers post concerning winter operations with
> > diesels is when he talks about the cloud point. This is what what most people
> > think of as the point where diesel fuel "gells" I doubt that one could see
> > this in their cars of SUVs. In a truck though, you can easily see into the
> > fuel tanks and when your fuel is cold enough to be at the cloud point, it is
> > readily visible. You will start to see a "waxy" sort of layer floating on to
> > of the fuel and the fuel below will not appear clear anymore, but cloudy. The
> > whole idea is top keep the fuel warmed above this cloud point temperature, or
> > to lower the cloud point temperature by adding chemicals. My experience has
> > been that not all brands of diesel fuel have the same cloud point
> > temperature. Or, perhaps this can even vary from one batch to another at the
> > same station. Also not all cloud point lowering chemical treatments are
> > created equal, some seem to be better than others.
> >
> > When you are dirving in extremely cold weather, it becomes much more
> > difficult to keep your fuel warmed above the cloud point, because the "wind
> > chill" will remove the heat from your fuel tanks, perhaps faster than it is
> > being rewarmed by your engine. Diesel engines have what is called a fuel
> > by-pass. That is, not all of the fuel that is pumped from the tank is
> > injected into the cylinders and burned. Some of it is bypasses the injector
> > pump and is returned to the tank. During this round trip, it is warmed. The
> > secret to the whole thing is to conserve enough of the warmth, or to add even
> > more with an additional fuel heater, to keep the fuel in the tank above the
> > cloud point. If you can do this, your diesel will continue to run, no matter
> > how cold it gets. Fail to do this and you will eventually end up with plugged
> > fuel filters and a cold walk in your future.
> >
> > Mostly from the school of hard knox
> >
> > Rik
> >
> > On 12/10/2003 08:14 am, you wrote:
> > > Hi Everybody,
> > >
> > > The 1st thing you need to know is that crude oil is a very complex mixture
> > > of literally thousands of different organic, inorganic, and organo-metallic
> > > compounds & the specific composition varies greatly between crude oils from
> > > different fields. One of the first processing steps in an oil refinery is
> > > to send the crude oil thru a distillation tower. In the distillation
> > > tower, the components in the crude oil mixture are separated into fractions
> > > by their boiling point ranges. The components with the lowest boiling
> > > points come out the top of the distillation tower as vapor. These would
> > > include compounds like methane, ethane, ethylene, propane, and butane.
> > > These so called "light components" are sent to another distillation tower
> > > which operates at cryogenic temperature for further separation. Going down
> > > the crude oil distillation tower, fractions with greater & greater boiling
> > > point ranges are removed as liquid side streams. From the top of the tower
> > > down, these fractions are: gasoline or naphtha, JP-4, kerosene or #1 fuel
> > > oil, #2 fuel oil, #4 fuel oil, #5 light, #5 heavy, & #6 fuel oil. #3 fuel
> > > oil is not an official API crude oil fraction designation because it would
> > > have to be removed from the distillation tower very near the feed port.
> > > Removal of this #3 fuel oil side stream in the vicinity of the feed port
> > > would tend to upset the operation of the distillation tower. Believe me,
> > > achieving stable on-spec operation of a distillation tower with 9 or 10
> > > product streams & a variable feed stock is one of the most difficult
> > > process control problems in all of chemical engineering, even without
> > > screwing up the column operation by removing a side stream near the feed
> > > port! Sometimes refineries will cut a deal with a local business & sell
> > > them a product called #3 fuel oil with a boiling point range intermediate
> > > between #2 fuel oil & #4 fuel oil. But, it's always made by blending #2
> > > fuel oil & #4 fuel oil. Remember, all these products are not pure
> > > compounds. They are complex mixtures that meet a boiling point range
> > > specification.
> > >
> > > OK, so what happens if you feed a diesel engine a fuel oil that's too
> > > light? The fuel injection system in a diesel engine has a number of very
> > > precisely machined, highly polished components that meter & atomize the
> > > fuel. These pieces/parts depend upon the lubricating qualities of the fuel
> > > oil to lubricate & cool them as they operate. A fuel oil that's too light
> > > will not have the oil film strength (basically viscosity) to prevent
> > > metal-to-metal contact in the fuel injection system. The fuel injection
> > > system will self-destruct in short order. In addition, a fuel oil that's
> > > too light will have a boiling point range outside of the design range of
> > > the fuel injection system. Remember, the fuel injection system is located
> > > right next to a hot engine. If the light fuel oil starts vaporizing inside
> > > the injection pump &/or injectors, the system will stop working. There
> > > will be instant catastrophic metal-to-metal contact & the system will seize
> > > up. Finally, smooth operation of the diesel engine depends upon the
> > > atomized droplets of fuel in the combustion chamber behaving in a
> > > predictable manner. Basically, what's supposed to happen is that in the
> > > microseconds immediately following fuel injection, the light components of
> > > the diesel oil mixture start boiling out of each droplet. These light
> > > components mix as a vapor with the air in the combustion chamber,
> > > eventually forming a mixture with a composition within the flammable range.
> > > Somewhere in this vapor space, the flammable mixture lights off due to the
> > > adiabatic heat of compression (remember it's a diesel - no spark plugs).
> > > The flame front rapidly consumes all the fuel present as a vapor & ends up
> > > burning at the surface of the remaining droplets of fuel. These droplets
> > > of fuel progressively boil up their remaining lightest components & the
> > > remaining droplet gets enriched in heavy boiling components. Under heavy
> > > load, there isn't enough time available during the 4-cycle engine's power
> > > stroke to completely combust the heaviest components. These heavy
> > > components get ejected with the exhaust gases & we see them as diesel smoke
> > > & soot. If there are too much light boiling components in the diesel fuel;
> > > then, too much of the droplet vaporizes in-between fuel injection &
> > > ignition. Two things can happen. Ignition can actually occur while the
> > > fuel injectors are still atomizing fuel. The fuel injectors were not
> > > designed to have a high temperature flame impinging on them while they are
> > > in operation atomizing fuel & they can be damaged. The other thing that
> > > can happen is that a relatively large amount of light boiling components
> > > end up in the vapor space prior to ignition. When this big fuel charge
> > > lights off, combustion is too rapid & the
> > > pressure/temperature in the combustion chamber exceeds design limits. This
> > > can cause problems like blown head gaskets, holes in pistons, burnt valve
> > > seats, etc. It's sort of like having the spark timing set incorrectly on a
> > > gasoline engine &/or using a fuel with too low an octane number for the
> > > spark ignited engine's compression ratio. In fact, diesel fuels actually
> > > have a "cetane number", which is the opposite of an "octane number". A
> > > high cetane number means the fuel will preignite very readily. Diesel
> > > fuels have a low octane number and a high cetane number. The optimum
> > > injection timing in a diesel engine strongly depends upon the lag time
> > > between fuel atomization & initial light off & this lag time is mostly
> > > controlled by the boiling point range of the diesel fuel.
> > >
> > > So what happens if you feed a diesel engine a fuel oil that's too heavy?
> > > The viscosity of the fuel oil goes up along with the boiling point range.
> > > A heavy fuel oil may be too viscous for the fuel system to pump from the
> > > fuel tank to fuel injection metering system, especially at low
> > > temperatures. In addition, all fuel oils have a specification called the
> > > "cloud point". Basically that's the temperature at which the fuel oil
> > > becomes visibly cloudy or scatters transmitted light. Physically, what's
> > > happening is that the heaviest boiling components in the fuel oil have
> > > solidified into micron sized particles of a waxy material. Remember all
> > > those very precise, highly polished pieces/parts in the fuel injection
> > > system? The diesel engine's fuel system has a system of very fine mesh
> > > filters & oil/water separators designed to filter out abrasive particles &
> > > water in order to protect those parts. These waxy particles will clog up
> > > the fuel filters in a diesel engine very quickly. Winter diesel fuel
> > > additives increase the solubility of these waxy materials so they stay
> > > dissolved. The higher viscosity fuel oil may not atomize properly in the
> > > fuel injectors, resulting in the atomized droplets being too big in the
> > > combustion chamber. Bigger droplets result in less surface area for the
> > > light boiling components to evaporate from. In addition, the heavy fuel
> > > oil has relatively less of the lighter boiling components in it to begin
> > > with. So, there are less of the low boiling components present to vaporize
> > > off the droplets & those that are there vaporize more slowly because of the
> > > bigger droplets to mix with the air in the combustion chamber to light the
> > > fire. In other words, especially at low temperature, the engine may not
> > > even run on this fuel. That's why diesel engines have glow plugs
> > > (combustion chamber preheaters) for winter operation. Even if the diesel
> > > engine does run on this fuel, a much larger % of the combustion will be of
> > > the slower, less efficient variety wherein burning occurs at the surface of
> > > the droplets. I would expect the engine would be down on power & the
> > > exhaust would be very smoky & sooty.
> > >
> > > So, although diesel engines can theoretically burn a wide range of fuels;
> > > in reality, they are pretty finicky about what they will reliably run on.
> > >
> > > There, that's probably much more than you ever wanted to know re fuel oil
> > > specifications & how diesel engines work. Hopefully, I answered your
> > > question.
> > >
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:31 AM
> > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> > >
> > > > Dan, Rik and Rummy,
> > > > Dan thank you for the latest on Ford's diesels, and for your
> > > > inputs on diesel fuel and additives.
> > > > Maybe we can get Roger to explain the chemical differences
> > > > during the Christmas holidays, if he gets them.
> > > > As for #3, it was used in big locomotive engines during the
> > > > transition from coal to diesel. It was used to generate steam.
> > > > Ed K
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Michael Meltzer
> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:28 PM
> > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> > > >
> > > > thanks, I will watch it and take it easly on the centen booster, BTW
> > > > mine might be a early one 3/2003(did not know it until I picked
> > > > it up), is their anything I should watch out for or bitch to the dealer
> > > > about?(reflash the chip)
> > > >
> > > > MJM
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Dan Bodnar" <dsbodnar at earthlink.net>
> > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:23 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> > > >
> > > > > Michael,
> > > > > I've had several of the old 7.3L Diesels in E350 Vans. The last one I
> > > >
> > > > owned
> > > >
> > > > > was in 2001 and it had glow plugs and a fuel heater and I'm fairly
> > > >
> > > > certain
> > > >
> > > > > that the new 6.0L still has the fuel heater. I'm in the Metro Detroit
> > > >
> > > > area
> > > >
> > > > > and we rarely have nights much colder than -10 degrees. I learned
> > > >
> > > > that I
> > > >
> > > > > did not need to plug it in unless it was going to be colder than 10
> > > >
> > > > below
> > > >
> > > > > 'cause the diesel started fine. I did plug it in when I knew it would
> > > >
> > > > be
> > > >
> > > > > colder than 10 below at night just to be safe. But, having forgotten
> > > >
> > > > to do
> > > >
> > > > > it a few times, taught me that they would start using just the
> > > >
> > > > recommended
> > > >
> > > > > start procedure.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, fresh winter grade fuel, or some Premium diesel (which I think
> > > >
> > > > is
> > > >
> > > > > really #1) and your diesel should do fine. Also make sure that the
> > > >
> > > > water
> > > >
> > > > > separator really does get drained with every oil change. I never had a
> > > > > diesel not start. They were a little smoky sometimes when it was zero
> > > >
> > > > or
> > > >
> > > > > colder, but they always started. I only used a diesel fuel
> > > >
> > > > conditioner on
> > > >
> > > > > one trip into Michigan's Upper Peninsula where I knew I was going to
> > > >
> > > > have
> > > >
> > > > > 20+ below-zero weather. I don't remember the gel point of diesel
> > > >
> > > > either,
> > > >
> > > > > but I'm pretty sure it is lower than 15 below... now that I think
> > > >
> > > > about it,
> > > >
> > > > > if the numbers aren't in the diesel supplement to your owner's manual,
> > > >
> > > > then
> > > >
> > > > > the gel point is printed on the back of some of the bottles of fuel
> > > > > conditioner. Oh, and with the new 6.0L electronically controlled
> > > >
> > > > diesel, if
> > > >
> > > > > you decide to use a fuel conditioner, "more is NOT better". Raising
> > > >
> > > > the
> > > >
> > > > > flash point of the fuel too far will play havoc with proper
> > > >
> > > > combustion.
> > > >
> > > > > We had some initial growing pains with the new 6.0L Diesel, but the
> > > >
> > > > reports
> > > >
> > > > > I'm seeing lately say that the late 2003 and 2004 units are top
> > > >
> > > > drawer.
> > > >
> > > > > Dan Bodnar
> > > > > SV QOL
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> > > >
> > > > Meltzer
> > > >
> > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:46 PM
> > > > > To: sanderico at earthlink.net; The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> > > > >
> > > > > That nice to know, under a little knowage is dangerous I heard that
> > > >
> > > > use
> > > >
> > > > > Kerosene can be use up to 20% in the winter, also almost
> > > > > anything can go into a disel engine, like bio-disel, made from used
> > > >
> > > > frechfry
> > > >
> > > > > oil :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > MJM
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Rik Sandberg" <sanderico at earthlink.net>
> > > > > To: <kroposki at innova.net>; "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:54 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ed,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > #1 fuel oil and kerosene are not the same thing. Kerosene is more
> > > > >
> > > > > "refined"
> > > > >
> > > > > > than #1 oil. #3 fuel oil is an even heavier oil than #2. I think
> > > >
> > > > they use
> > > >
> > > > > it
> > > > >
> > > > > > for firing funaces (like asphalt plants) and things, industrial
> > > >
> > > > stuff more
> > > >
> > > > > > down south than up around here. It's heavy enough that you have to
> > > >
> > > > warm it
> > > >
> > > > > up
> > > > >
> > > > > > before it will light easily. Not an expert on this though :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I did run across a guy from down south a few years ago that claimed
> > > >
> > > > to be
> > > >
> > > > > > using #3 oil in the truck he was driving. It was about -20 F that
> > > >
> > > > night
> > > >
> > > > > and I
> > > > >
> > > > > > stopped to help him as his truck was froze up (fuel gelled) on the
> > > >
> > > > side of
> > > >
> > > > > > I-94. Poor bastard was out in that shit in nothing but a light
> > > >
> > > > jacket and
> > > >
> > > > > a
> > > > >
> > > > > > t-shirt. He was, to say the least, happy to see me. I would imagine
> > > >
> > > > that
> > > >
> > > > > they
> > > > >
> > > > > > had to drain whatever fuel was in that truck and start over with all
> > > >
> > > > new,
> > > >
> > > > > > lighter fuel before that truck would ever go anywhere again before
> > > >
> > > > spring.
> > > >
> > > > > I
> > > > >
> > > > > > think he learned that some of the things you can get away with down
> > > >
> > > > south,
> > > >
> > > > > > won't get you very far up here when it gets cold. Up here, we've got
> > > >
> > > > real
> > > >
> > > > > > honest to God.......COLD!!!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rik
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 12/08/2003 08:16 pm, you wrote:
> > > > > > > KEROSENE! What is # 3 used for? and yes there is a #3. Hey guys
> > > >
> > > > help
> > > >
> > > > > > > Rummy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ed K
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've always just known it as #1.
> > > > > > >
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