[ham] Re: [Rhodes22-list] Taxes & Politics
Wally Buck
tnrhodey@hotmail.com
Sat, 18 Jan 2003 10:33:36 -0500
MJM,
I hope you find a new job and get the hell out of there. I have heard you
rule out the south before but I don't pay any state income tax or wages.
Wally
>>At 06:32 PM 1/17/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>>I am here :-)
>>
>>lets see were I am in this debate.
>>
>>Section 1:
>>I live in CT, the top state to get back the least tax dollars/services on
>>taxes paid(per cap)
>>I live in Fairfield county, the county to get back the least tax
>>dollars/services on taxes paid(per cap) in ct
>>I live in Westport, second only to bill in Greenwich, at the town level
>>200%+ the USA cost of living average.
>>
>>Bottom line, at the fed/state/county level I see the least return on tax
>>dollars and in fact fund everyone else,
>>if a nuke was to go off in town, everyone taxes in the county/state/nation
>>would go up.
>>
>>I pay my own health insurance, even paying top dollar the town/state/fed
>>employs plan in better, infact I would have better coverage
>>if I was on welfare.
>>Like slim I pay my own SSI, both sides.
>>I also pay unemployment insurance, been told I never will be able to
>>collect.
>>I pay fee to set up and maintain my retirement plain.
>>I pay fee to my account(and their not cheap) to do my taxes. I have to it
>>would cost more in taxes if I did not.
>>I can not have a simple will, that tax thing again, lawyers want 3000+ to
>>draw it up.
>>The tax code does effect how my family lives their life, as in day to day
>>actions.
>>Most of the town is experts in the tax code, why should I have to live my
>>life that way ?
>>
>>
>>
>>I do think Milton is right, Almost by definition. Kind of like the quote
>>"you ever notice that their always enough news every day to
>>fill a news paper", I do think we are getting to the point of "ternary of
>>democracy", to maintain power people are using class
>>warfare tactics, passing laws that only effect others. In one breath
>>"Social Security insurance" in a lock box, in the next "Cut
>>payroll taxes (which are the SSI taxes)". I believe that to solve the ssi
>>problem it will be taken a taken away from me and my
>>family, to become an older welfare program. The Marjory of voters will
>>befits that way.
>>
>>My problem is that it never lets up, every time I try around someone
>>after my wallet, lets see this week, bloomberg for ny comuter
>>tax(selling it for high eraners), ct for an increase to the cig tax(it
>>good for you), town for bonding for school construction(the
>>state backed out of it share, tight budget westport can adfordit). The
>>only choice anyone every give me it to cut and run, do like
>>it move. never a thankyou. Even with that thier are still places I can not
>>live or work in the area. Yep I in a foul mood.
>>
>>a couple of random thought:
>>why is it the worst price from doctor is paying cash?
>>why has it become being a vitims is now a lotory? less 100 victims of wtc
>>have settled, thier waiting on the law suits.
>>how did it become that value of human life is unlimited?
>>the world only victims now, lawers doing risk tranfers, Tv ads for any
>>stuiped thing "call 1800 lawwer", with high stacks payoffs.
>>
>>MJM
>>
>>Never did work in the CO spending cap
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Alex Bell" <alexbell@coastalnet.com>
>>To: <wwrhodes@rhodes22.com>; "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>><rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 3:25 PM
>>Subject: [ham] Re: [Rhodes22-list] Taxes & Politics
>>
>>
>> > Stan,
>> >
>> > The only thing I would agree with your commentary is that there's a lot
>> > of simplistic logic going on.
>> >
>> > I am not going to comment on and on about this since I have been
>> > chastised in the past for any political view I expressed in joke form.
>> > It amazes me that this joke sent by Paul, with a disclaimer attached to
>> > boot, would end up becoming a platform for you to express your
>>political
>> > views. I think you should keep your commentary to the boats you build.
>> > If the rest of us are supposed to adhere to some kind of non political
>> > agenda here, then the least you could do would be to refrain from
>> > expousing your views.
>> >
>> > As to debt, I don't want to pay off someone else's debts. I have plenty
>> > of my own, thank you. I worked for mine. I started out delivering
>> > telegrams on a bicycle, worked on the L&N Railroad section gang, a
>> > spring factory, and road grader manufacturer as a welders helper before
>> > my education assisted me in better paying jobs. Like Brad said, I am
>>not
>> > going to apologize for what I've accumulated over the years.
>> >
>> > Someone commented on the fabled double tax and capital gains tax. I
>> > suppose some people might feel that these taxes affect only the rich.
>> > But it affects anyone who might want to sell a piece of property, only
>> > to find that if sold, it would cost them dearly. How many people own
>> > some kind of Mutual Fund? We had some that lost 40% of their value, but
>> > we had to pay capital gains on them. Aint that great?
>> >
>> > When times are tough, we cut back on spending. Something the
>>government
>> > programs don't seem to do. I'm tired of the guilt trips people lay on
>>us
>> > because we want to keep more of our money. I find myself paying taxes
>>on
>> > money I saved and put away once, and it's getting old. I've left the
>> > list before because of political discussions, but I think I'll stick
>> > around and stir the pot for a change. Of all people, I have OPINIONS.
>>If
>> > someone encourages me, I will be able to supply a full diatribe. So
>> > there.
>> >
>> > To Wally, I say, good job in questioning the written word. You are a
>> > bright light in a dim day.
>> > To RIK, he don't apologize for you comments. That first comment was
>>just
>> > not necessary. The second one was better.
>> > To MJM, hey where are you?
>> > To Brad, gee, I wish I had said that. But then I'm not quite as well
>> > off. But I'm not full of envy. Hard work pays off...twice.
>> >
>> > Alex
>> >
>> >
>> > General Boats wrote:
>> > >
>> > > With the same caveat that Paul posted, here is a reply from the left.
>> Don't
>> > > read it if it moves you to leave the list.
>> > >
>> > > Would it only be so simple as the professor from SD makes it.
>> > >
>> > > Just three minor complications - many more can be contributed by
>>musch wiser
>> > > economists..
>> > >
>> > > a) 50,000,000 of us do not make enough to pay taxes no matter how
>>hard we
>> > > work - we are just not that smart. So Tax cuts are not a neutral
>>issue. Tax
>> > > cuts invariably mean tax increases for us. With less revenues,
>>services are
>> > > diminished. Cost of education rises. (That is a very costly error -
>>the free
>> > > GI educational bill of WW 2 got the US economy roaring). States find
>> > > themselves in financial holes and have to make up the shortfalls with
>>all sorts
>> > > of increases like higher sales taxes (which have the same rate no
>>matter what
>> > > your income), higher real estate taxes - perhaps gas taxes -anything
>>to raise
>> > > moneys the income tax cuts have taken from them. So tax cuts are a
>>double edge
>> > > sword that not only help those who need help the least, but at the
>>same time
>> > > hurt those who need help the most. I know some of you chafe at the
>>idea of
>> > > someone getting something for nothing. But those who take advantage
>>of any
>> > > good nature the government shows are in the minority of good
>>Americans and good
>> > > policing can wean the freeloaders out. Overkill sooner or later leads
>>to
>> > > overthrow. The funny thing about tax cuts is that the very wealthy
>>think they
>> > > are a mistake.
>> > >
>> > > b) If you step back and see how the rich got rich, with the
>>exception of
>> > > those who stole it and then bought their way in and those who
>>contributed
>> > > nothing but happen to be born in the right circle, the majority made
>>it the
>> > > hard way, they worked for it. But they were only able to succeed
>>because they
>> > > had the invaluable assistance of the police man and fireman and
>>milkman (and in
>> > > my day the iceman) and hosts of others that were needed to create the
>> > > environment that made the accumulation of wealth possible in the
>>first place.
>> > > Part of any money due back the high end is really to be shared with
>>their
>> > > silent partners. President Roosevelt understood this and pulled the
>>country
>> > > out of a depression most of you have no inkling of.
>> > >
>> > > c) The Baltimore Sun ran an editorial pointing out that while our
>>current
>> > > leader says we should cut taxes because it is their own money we are
>>giving
>> > > back to them, he skips saying it is also their debt. Yet it was and
>>is the
>> > > very creating of the debt that paved the way for the accumulation of
>>wealth.
>> > > But somehow when it comes to who should pay for the debt, that
>>becomes a non
>> > > progressive burden. We are taught that when we have money we should
>>pay off
>> > > our debts and instead our leaders cut taxes - all the interest that
>>could have
>> > > been saved could have paid for the next war. What a shame.
>> > >
>> > > Since no one is reading this I'll stop here. But for the simplistic
>>logic of
>> > > our good professor, there are many other avenues of challenge.
>> > >
>> > > stan/gbi
>> > >
>> > > Rik Sandberg wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Paul,
>> > > >
>> > > > Yeah, I printed that one out. Think I'll frame it and hang it on
>>the wall
>> > > > in my office. We had that happen in Minnesota the last couple of
>>years when
>> > > > they did a sales tax rebate. People that were living off welfare or
>>other
>> > > > gov't programs were all bitching 'cause they didn't get any money
>>back.
>> > > > It's amazing how they can translate paying nothing into less of a
>>benefit
>> > > > to them than paying less is to someone else. To top it off, it seem
>>there
>> > > > really is a fool born every minute, so there's a lot of them out
>>there. :-)
>> > > >
>> > > > Rik
>> > > >
>> > > > At 08:00 AM 1/15/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>> > > > >Before you read this, it is a commentary on taxes & politics. It
>>is just
>> > > > >one guy's opinion (not even necessarily mine) so don't go crazy
>>with this
>> > > > >& start a war. If you don't like this kind of stuff, delete it
>>now and
>> > > > >don't read it. - Paul
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >A VERY simple way to understand the tax laws. Read on -- it does
>> > > > >
>> > > > >make you think!!
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that
>>every
>> > > > >day,
>> > > > >
>> > > > >ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If
>>they
>> > > > >paid
>> > > > >
>> > > > >their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like
>>this:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >The first four men -- the poorest -- would pay nothing; the fifth
>>would
>> > > > >pay
>> > > > >
>> > > > >$1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the
>>ninth
>> > > > >$18,
>> > > > >
>> > > > >and the tenth man -- the richest -- would pay $59.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the
>>restaurant
>> > > > >
>> > > > >every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement -- until one
>>day,
>> > > > >the
>> > > > >
>> > > > >owner threw them a curve (in tax language a tax cut).
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to
>>reduce
>> > > > >the
>> > > > >
>> > > > >cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only
>>cost
>> > > > >$80.00.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.
>>So the
>> > > > >
>> > > > >first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But
>>what
>> > > > >
>> > > > >about the other six -- the paying customers? How could they divvy
>>up the
>> > > > >$20
>> > > > >
>> > > > >windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they
>> > > > >
>> > > > >subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and the
>>sixth
>> > > > >man
>> > > > >
>> > > > >would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner
>> > > > >suggested
>> > > > >
>> > > > >that it
>> > > > >
>> > > > >would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same
>>amount, and
>> > > > >he
>> > > > >
>> > > > >proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so the
>>fifth man
>> > > > >paid
>> > > > >
>> > > > >nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth
>>paid
>> > > > >$9,
>> > > > >
>> > > > >the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52
>>instead of
>> > > > >his
>> > > > >
>> > > > >earlier $59.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four
>>continued
>> > > > >to
>> > > > >
>> > > > >eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to
>>compare
>> > > > >
>> > > > >their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the
>>sixth
>> > > > >man,
>> > > > >
>> > > > >but he, (pointing to the tenth) got $7!". "Yeah, that's right,"
>>exclaimed
>> > > > >
>> > > > >the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too, ........It's unfair
>>that he
>> > > > >got
>> > > > >
>> > > > >seven times more than me!". That's true!" shouted the seventh man,
>>why
>> > > > >
>> > > > >should he get $7 back when I got only $2?" The wealthy get all the
>> > > > >breaks!".
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't
>>get
>> > > > >anything
>> > > > >
>> > > > >at all. The system exploits the poor!"
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night
>>he
>> > > > >didn't
>> > > > >
>> > > > >show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But
>>when it
>> > > > >
>> > > > >came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was
>>very
>> > > > >
>> > > > >important. They were FIFTY TWO DOLLARS short of paying the bill!
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Imagine that!
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is
>>how the
>> > > > >
>> > > > >tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the
>>most
>> > > > >benefit
>> > > > >
>> > > > >from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being
>>wealthy,
>> > > > >and
>> > > > >
>> > > > >they just may not show up at the table anymore. Where would that
>>leave
>> > > > >the
>> > > > >
>> > > > >rest?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Unfortunately, most taxing authorities anywhere cannot seem to
>>grasp this
>> > > > >
>> > > > >rather straight-forward logic!
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >T. Davies
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Professor of Accounting &Chair,
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Division of Accounting and Business Law
>> > > > >
>> > > > >The University of South Dakota
>> > > > >
>> > > > >School of Business
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >========================
>> > > > >Paul Grandholm
>> > > > >C&H Technology
>> > > > >GrandPower Components Div.
>> > > > >========================
>> > > > >_________________________________________________
>> > > > >Use Rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > > >
>> > > > _________________________________________________
>> > > > Use Rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > >
>> > > _________________________________________________
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