[ham] Re: [Rhodes22-list] Taxes & Politics
Saroj
saroj@pathfind.net
Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:40:16 -0500
Michael,
What is it you do exactly?
(or is it top secret?)
Saroj
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Meltzer" <mjm@michaelmeltzer.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [ham] Re: [Rhodes22-list] Taxes & Politics
> my job is very tied to wall street trading and the firms, hedge funds and
street firms, about 70% in ny/north jersey, southern ct,
> 10% Chicago, 5 % phila, 5% Boston, 5% la, and the rest everywhere else.
make it hard to move out of the area for a warmer place :-)
>
> BTW the good news, I got a 6 months exception from the current firm,
happened right after an interview :-) my have been the suit :-)
>
> MJM
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wally Buck" <tnrhodey@hotmail.com>
> To: <rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 10:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [ham] Re: [Rhodes22-list] Taxes & Politics
>
>
> > MJM,
> >
> > I hope you find a new job and get the hell out of there. I have heard
you
> > rule out the south before but I don't pay any state income tax or wages.
> >
> > Wally
> >
> > >>At 06:32 PM 1/17/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> > >>I am here :-)
> > >>
> > >>lets see were I am in this debate.
> > >>
> > >>Section 1:
> > >>I live in CT, the top state to get back the least tax dollars/services
on
> > >>taxes paid(per cap)
> > >>I live in Fairfield county, the county to get back the least tax
> > >>dollars/services on taxes paid(per cap) in ct
> > >>I live in Westport, second only to bill in Greenwich, at the town
level
> > >>200%+ the USA cost of living average.
> > >>
> > >>Bottom line, at the fed/state/county level I see the least return on
tax
> > >>dollars and in fact fund everyone else,
> > >>if a nuke was to go off in town, everyone taxes in the
county/state/nation
> > >>would go up.
> > >>
> > >>I pay my own health insurance, even paying top dollar the
town/state/fed
> > >>employs plan in better, infact I would have better coverage
> > >>if I was on welfare.
> > >>Like slim I pay my own SSI, both sides.
> > >>I also pay unemployment insurance, been told I never will be able to
> > >>collect.
> > >>I pay fee to set up and maintain my retirement plain.
> > >>I pay fee to my account(and their not cheap) to do my taxes. I have
to it
> > >>would cost more in taxes if I did not.
> > >>I can not have a simple will, that tax thing again, lawyers want 3000+
to
> > >>draw it up.
> > >>The tax code does effect how my family lives their life, as in day to
day
> > >>actions.
> > >>Most of the town is experts in the tax code, why should I have to live
my
> > >>life that way ?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>I do think Milton is right, Almost by definition. Kind of like the
quote
> > >>"you ever notice that their always enough news every day to
> > >>fill a news paper", I do think we are getting to the point of "ternary
of
> > >>democracy", to maintain power people are using class
> > >>warfare tactics, passing laws that only effect others. In one breath
> > >>"Social Security insurance" in a lock box, in the next "Cut
> > >>payroll taxes (which are the SSI taxes)". I believe that to solve the
ssi
> > >>problem it will be taken a taken away from me and my
> > >>family, to become an older welfare program. The Marjory of voters will
> > >>befits that way.
> > >>
> > >>My problem is that it never lets up, every time I try around someone
> > >>after my wallet, lets see this week, bloomberg for ny comuter
> > >>tax(selling it for high eraners), ct for an increase to the cig tax(it
> > >>good for you), town for bonding for school construction(the
> > >>state backed out of it share, tight budget westport can adfordit). The
> > >>only choice anyone every give me it to cut and run, do like
> > >>it move. never a thankyou. Even with that thier are still places I can
not
> > >>live or work in the area. Yep I in a foul mood.
> > >>
> > >>a couple of random thought:
> > >>why is it the worst price from doctor is paying cash?
> > >>why has it become being a vitims is now a lotory? less 100 victims of
wtc
> > >>have settled, thier waiting on the law suits.
> > >>how did it become that value of human life is unlimited?
> > >>the world only victims now, lawers doing risk tranfers, Tv ads for any
> > >>stuiped thing "call 1800 lawwer", with high stacks payoffs.
> > >>
> > >>MJM
> > >>
> > >>Never did work in the CO spending cap
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>From: "Alex Bell" <alexbell@coastalnet.com>
> > >>To: <wwrhodes@rhodes22.com>; "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > >><rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org>
> > >>Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 3:25 PM
> > >>Subject: [ham] Re: [Rhodes22-list] Taxes & Politics
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Stan,
> > >> >
> > >> > The only thing I would agree with your commentary is that there's a
lot
> > >> > of simplistic logic going on.
> > >> >
> > >> > I am not going to comment on and on about this since I have been
> > >> > chastised in the past for any political view I expressed in joke
form.
> > >> > It amazes me that this joke sent by Paul, with a disclaimer
attached to
> > >> > boot, would end up becoming a platform for you to express your
> > >>political
> > >> > views. I think you should keep your commentary to the boats you
build.
> > >> > If the rest of us are supposed to adhere to some kind of non
political
> > >> > agenda here, then the least you could do would be to refrain from
> > >> > expousing your views.
> > >> >
> > >> > As to debt, I don't want to pay off someone else's debts. I have
plenty
> > >> > of my own, thank you. I worked for mine. I started out delivering
> > >> > telegrams on a bicycle, worked on the L&N Railroad section gang, a
> > >> > spring factory, and road grader manufacturer as a welders helper
before
> > >> > my education assisted me in better paying jobs. Like Brad said, I
am
> > >>not
> > >> > going to apologize for what I've accumulated over the years.
> > >> >
> > >> > Someone commented on the fabled double tax and capital gains tax. I
> > >> > suppose some people might feel that these taxes affect only the
rich.
> > >> > But it affects anyone who might want to sell a piece of property,
only
> > >> > to find that if sold, it would cost them dearly. How many people
own
> > >> > some kind of Mutual Fund? We had some that lost 40% of their value,
but
> > >> > we had to pay capital gains on them. Aint that great?
> > >> >
> > >> > When times are tough, we cut back on spending. Something the
> > >>government
> > >> > programs don't seem to do. I'm tired of the guilt trips people lay
on
> > >>us
> > >> > because we want to keep more of our money. I find myself paying
taxes
> > >>on
> > >> > money I saved and put away once, and it's getting old. I've left
the
> > >> > list before because of political discussions, but I think I'll
stick
> > >> > around and stir the pot for a change. Of all people, I have
OPINIONS.
> > >>If
> > >> > someone encourages me, I will be able to supply a full diatribe. So
> > >> > there.
> > >> >
> > >> > To Wally, I say, good job in questioning the written word. You are
a
> > >> > bright light in a dim day.
> > >> > To RIK, he don't apologize for you comments. That first comment was
> > >>just
> > >> > not necessary. The second one was better.
> > >> > To MJM, hey where are you?
> > >> > To Brad, gee, I wish I had said that. But then I'm not quite as
well
> > >> > off. But I'm not full of envy. Hard work pays off...twice.
> > >> >
> > >> > Alex
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > General Boats wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > With the same caveat that Paul posted, here is a reply from the
left.
> > >> Don't
> > >> > > read it if it moves you to leave the list.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Would it only be so simple as the professor from SD makes it.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Just three minor complications - many more can be contributed by
> > >>musch wiser
> > >> > > economists..
> > >> > >
> > >> > > a) 50,000,000 of us do not make enough to pay taxes no matter
how
> > >>hard we
> > >> > > work - we are just not that smart. So Tax cuts are not a neutral
> > >>issue. Tax
> > >> > > cuts invariably mean tax increases for us. With less revenues,
> > >>services are
> > >> > > diminished. Cost of education rises. (That is a very costly
error -
> > >>the free
> > >> > > GI educational bill of WW 2 got the US economy roaring). States
find
> > >> > > themselves in financial holes and have to make up the shortfalls
with
> > >>all sorts
> > >> > > of increases like higher sales taxes (which have the same rate no
> > >>matter what
> > >> > > your income), higher real estate taxes - perhaps gas
taxes -anything
> > >>to raise
> > >> > > moneys the income tax cuts have taken from them. So tax cuts are
a
> > >>double edge
> > >> > > sword that not only help those who need help the least, but at
the
> > >>same time
> > >> > > hurt those who need help the most. I know some of you chafe at
the
> > >>idea of
> > >> > > someone getting something for nothing. But those who take
advantage
> > >>of any
> > >> > > good nature the government shows are in the minority of good
> > >>Americans and good
> > >> > > policing can wean the freeloaders out. Overkill sooner or later
leads
> > >>to
> > >> > > overthrow. The funny thing about tax cuts is that the very
wealthy
> > >>think they
> > >> > > are a mistake.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > b) If you step back and see how the rich got rich, with the
> > >>exception of
> > >> > > those who stole it and then bought their way in and those who
> > >>contributed
> > >> > > nothing but happen to be born in the right circle, the majority
made
> > >>it the
> > >> > > hard way, they worked for it. But they were only able to succeed
> > >>because they
> > >> > > had the invaluable assistance of the police man and fireman and
> > >>milkman (and in
> > >> > > my day the iceman) and hosts of others that were needed to create
the
> > >> > > environment that made the accumulation of wealth possible in the
> > >>first place.
> > >> > > Part of any money due back the high end is really to be shared
with
> > >>their
> > >> > > silent partners. President Roosevelt understood this and pulled
the
> > >>country
> > >> > > out of a depression most of you have no inkling of.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > c) The Baltimore Sun ran an editorial pointing out that while
our
> > >>current
> > >> > > leader says we should cut taxes because it is their own money we
are
> > >>giving
> > >> > > back to them, he skips saying it is also their debt. Yet it was
and
> > >>is the
> > >> > > very creating of the debt that paved the way for the accumulation
of
> > >>wealth.
> > >> > > But somehow when it comes to who should pay for the debt, that
> > >>becomes a non
> > >> > > progressive burden. We are taught that when we have money we
should
> > >>pay off
> > >> > > our debts and instead our leaders cut taxes - all the interest
that
> > >>could have
> > >> > > been saved could have paid for the next war. What a shame.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Since no one is reading this I'll stop here. But for the
simplistic
> > >>logic of
> > >> > > our good professor, there are many other avenues of challenge.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > stan/gbi
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Rik Sandberg wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Paul,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Yeah, I printed that one out. Think I'll frame it and hang it
on
> > >>the wall
> > >> > > > in my office. We had that happen in Minnesota the last couple
of
> > >>years when
> > >> > > > they did a sales tax rebate. People that were living off
welfare or
> > >>other
> > >> > > > gov't programs were all bitching 'cause they didn't get any
money
> > >>back.
> > >> > > > It's amazing how they can translate paying nothing into less of
a
> > >>benefit
> > >> > > > to them than paying less is to someone else. To top it off, it
seem
> > >>there
> > >> > > > really is a fool born every minute, so there's a lot of them
out
> > >>there. :-)
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Rik
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > At 08:00 AM 1/15/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> > >> > > > >Before you read this, it is a commentary on taxes & politics.
It
> > >>is just
> > >> > > > >one guy's opinion (not even necessarily mine) so don't go
crazy
> > >>with this
> > >> > > > >& start a war. If you don't like this kind of stuff, delete
it
> > >>now and
> > >> > > > >don't read it. - Paul
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >A VERY simple way to understand the tax laws. Read on -- it
does
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >make you think!!
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose
that
> > >>every
> > >> > > > >day,
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100.
If
> > >>they
> > >> > > > >paid
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something
like
> > >>this:
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >The first four men -- the poorest -- would pay nothing; the
fifth
> > >>would
> > >> > > > >pay
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >$1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12,
the
> > >>ninth
> > >> > > > >$18,
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >and the tenth man -- the richest -- would pay $59.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the
> > >>restaurant
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement -- until
one
> > >>day,
> > >> > > > >the
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >owner threw them a curve (in tax language a tax cut).
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going
to
> > >>reduce
> > >> > > > >the
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten
only
> > >>cost
> > >> > > > >$80.00.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our
taxes.
> > >>So the
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free.
But
> > >>what
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >about the other six -- the paying customers? How could they
divvy
> > >>up the
> > >> > > > >$20
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if
they
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and
the
> > >>sixth
> > >> > > > >man
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant
owner
> > >> > > > >suggested
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >that it
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same
> > >>amount, and
> > >> > > > >he
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so the
> > >>fifth man
> > >> > > > >paid
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the
eighth
> > >>paid
> > >> > > > >$9,
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52
> > >>instead of
> > >> > > > >his
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >earlier $59.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four
> > >>continued
> > >> > > > >to
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began
to
> > >>compare
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared
the
> > >>sixth
> > >> > > > >man,
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >but he, (pointing to the tenth) got $7!". "Yeah, that's
right,"
> > >>exclaimed
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too, ........It's
unfair
> > >>that he
> > >> > > > >got
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >seven times more than me!". That's true!" shouted the seventh
man,
> > >>why
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >should he get $7 back when I got only $2?" The wealthy get all
the
> > >> > > > >breaks!".
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We
didn't
> > >>get
> > >> > > > >anything
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >at all. The system exploits the poor!"
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next
night
> > >>he
> > >> > > > >didn't
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him.
But
> > >>when it
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what
was
> > >>very
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >important. They were FIFTY TWO DOLLARS short of paying the
bill!
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Imagine that!
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors,
is
> > >>how the
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the
> > >>most
> > >> > > > >benefit
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being
> > >>wealthy,
> > >> > > > >and
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >they just may not show up at the table anymore. Where would
that
> > >>leave
> > >> > > > >the
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >rest?
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Unfortunately, most taxing authorities anywhere cannot seem to
> > >>grasp this
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >rather straight-forward logic!
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >T. Davies
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Professor of Accounting &Chair,
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Division of Accounting and Business Law
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >The University of South Dakota
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >School of Business
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >========================
> > >> > > > >Paul Grandholm
> > >> > > > >C&H Technology
> > >> > > > >GrandPower Components Div.
> > >> > > > >========================
> > >> > > > >_________________________________________________
> > >> > > > >Use Rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > _________________________________________________
> > >> > > > Use Rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >> > >
> > >> > > _________________________________________________
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> > >>
> > >>_________________________________________________
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