[Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was Confused and Stupid
Steve
rhodes2282 at yahoo.com
Mon Jul 21 09:28:51 EDT 2003
Yes, Bill, I can see how folks would do that. No need
in throwing away a motor that would make a perfectly
good anchor. People need to be Conscious on recycling
their old worn out sailboat equipment. As for the oil
leaking, somethings must be overlook for the good of
the nations' recycling program. I am sure all would
agree:-)
Steve
--- Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
> No, Steve,
>
> The 4-strokes run so poorly people don't fix them.
> But they're very heavy, so people throw them
> overboard with a line attached, and use them to moor
> their boats. Too bad about the oil leaking from the
> crank cases.
>
> Bill
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 10:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> Confused and Stupid
>
>
> Excellent, Bill. See, patients pays off:-) Within
> a
> couple of years, probably all 2 strokes will meet
> stardards. I wonder if the 4 strokes will become
> obsilete and you will no longer be able to get
> service
> or parts on them. HUmmmmmmmmmmmm, something to
> think
> about:-)
> Steve
>
>
> --- Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
> > Steve,
> >
> > Great News!
> >
> > Yamaha has just introduced a new 300hp V-6 2-cycle
> > outboard that meets the 2006 federal emissions
> > standard!
> >
> > You may have to modify your engine mount slightly,
> > but your boat will fly--and you can be confident
> > that you're doing your bit for the environment.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Steve
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 7:56 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> > Confused and Stupid
> >
> >
> > Roger
> > Why did Michael get excluded!!! Besides, I never
> > said
> > you were wrong; you're generally right. I just
> > figure
> > we will all be glowing orange before it an
> issue:-)
> > Got to look at the bright side to these issues:-)
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > --- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> > > Bill, Rummy, Et Al,
> > >
> > > Look, this discussion is getting old & boring.
> > I've
> > > tried to state my case
> > > logically & I keep getting attacked from all
> sides
> > > (MJM excluded). You guys
> > > are obviously in denial, so go enjoy your
> 2-cycle
> > > outboards. However, I'll
> > > make a fearless prediction. Within 10 years,
> you
> > > will realise I was
> > > essentially correct re this 2-cycle marine
> engine
> > > emissions issue. On that
> > > day, I hope you will have the moral fiber to
> > > apologise. If, on the other
> > > hand, it turns out that the issue is marine
> > glurge,
> > > you can be certain I
> > > will also apologise.
> > >
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 3:28 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> > > Confused and Stupid
> > >
> > >
> > > > Roger, (and Michael),
> > > >
> > > > Can you find the reports by respected marine
> > > biologists you refer to? The
> > > ones I saw were bought and paid for by the
> marine
> > > engine industry. (OMC I
> > > believe.) They have been thoroughly
> discredited.
> > > >
> > > > 4-cycle engines simply do not get twice the
> fuel
> > > efficiency compared to
> > > 2-cycle engines as anyone with a 2-cycle can
> tell
> > > you. This statement was
> > > based on the notion that since the 4-cycle fired
> > > once every 4 strokes, and
> > > the 2-cycle fired on every other stroke, the 2
> > cycle
> > > must use twice as much
> > > gas, and dump half of it into the water.
> > > >
> > > > The 2 stroke people came back with a
> "ton-miles"
> > > statistic--since 4
> > > strokes of equivalent power weigh more than
> twice
> > as
> > > much as 2-strokes,
> > > pound for pound the 2 stroke engines must be
> twice
> > > as efficient.
> > > >
> > > > In fact, the 4-cycles are slightly more
> > efficient
> > > than the 2 strokes for
> > > the same amount of power. Most of the
> difference
> > is
> > > not "dumped into the
> > > water" as Michael would have it, but manifests
> > > itself in heat. 2-cycle
> > > engines run hotter.
> > > >
> > > > Which brings us to Dave, Jay, Michael and
> Bruce
> > > who have all had problems
> > > with their 4-cycle cooling systems. To bring
> > > 4-cycles up to operating
> > > temperatures they must employ complicated
> > > intermittent cooling systems with
> > > thermostats. There is an abundant supply of
> cool
> > > water in a marine
> > > environment to cool the hotter running
> > 2-cycles--no
> > > thermostats needed. The
> > > 2-cycles exhaust most of the extra gas in the
> form
> > > of non-polluting hot
> > > water. I have never had a problem with my
> cooling
> > > system. My engine is 12
> > > years old. I'm moored a couple of hundred yards
> > > from Bruce. Same salt
> > > water. I try to remember to flush my system at
> > the
> > > end of each season.
> > > (Last year I forgot.)
> > > >
> > > > The reports you refer to compared detuned
> > 2-cycle
> > > engines with specially
> > > tricked up 4-cycles made by the same
> manufacturer
> > > who didn't want to retool
> > > its 2-cycle line.
> > > >
> > > > The Japanese make excellent low polluting
> > 2-cycle
> > > engines, and were
> > > already making them when these reports were
> > written.
> > > My engine calls for a
> > > 50-1 gas-oil mixture. I put in more oil at the
> > > beginning of the season to
> > > make sure everything is lubricated, and when I
> > first
> > > start my engines there
> > > is a puff of smoke, but after that there is no
> > > visible smoke coming out of
> > > my engine, and there is no oil slick trailing my
> > > boat.
> > > >
> > > > That is not true of many 4-stroke gas guzzlers
> > > that cross my path leaving
> > > rainbows of residue behind them. The cylinders
> of
> > 4
> > > stroke engines must be
> > > lubricated just as 2 strokes must be lubricated.
>
> > > Cylinder rings are
> > > supposed to remove the excess, but not all of
> the
> > > oil--that's why you check
> > > your oil. Where do you think the missing oil
> > goes?
> > > No one does a ring job
> > > until much more oil has been dumped into the
> water
> > > than my little 2-stroke
> > > will ever put there.
> > > >
> > > > We have been around this bush too many times.
> I
> > > believe the claims you
> > > cite are glurge. What are the original sources?
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Roger Pihlaja
> > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 11:50 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> > > Confused and Stupid
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bill,
> > > >
> > > > The marine industry has been fighting the
> > > regulation & banning of 2-cycle
> > > > engines tooth & nail. The industry has a
> > > tremendous investment in
> > > > production capacity for the current generation
> > of
> > > 2-cycle engines. The
> > > > reports I am refering to were published by
> > > respected marine biologists,
> > > not
> > > > the marine industry. I assure you, the issue
> is
> > > good science, not
> > > "glurge".
> > > >
> > > > Also, if you reread what I have written, I did
> > not
> > > advocate everyone to go
> > > > out & immediately trade-in their 2-cycle
> marine
> > > engines. As I wrote, I
> > > > myself switched over to 4-cycle outboards over
> a
> > 4
> > > year period & only when
> > > > it was appropriate to replace an engine.
> > However,
> > > 2006 is approaching.
> > > >
> > > > Nationwide, 2-cycle powered PWC's & small
> > 2-cycle
> > > outboard powered boats
> > > > outnumber all other pleasure craft by wide
> > > margins.
> > > >
> > > > Other than the abuse heaped upon our Honda 9.9
> > by
> > > my son, Gary, our
> > > 4-cycle
> > > > Honda outboards have been bulletproof reliable
> > for
> > > nearly 8 & 4 years
> > > > respectively. They don't leak oil, we don't
> use
> > > any additives in their
> > > > fuel, they start on the 1st or 2nd pull with
> no
> > > rituals, & the % extra
> > > > engine time involved in running their carbs
> out
> > of
> > > fuel in between uses is
> > > > inconsequential. Besides, I used to do the
> same
> > > thing with the gas in the
> > > > carb on the 2-cycle Evinrude. I believe
> running
> > > the gas out of the carb
> > > is
> > > > just good practice with an outboard that sits
> > > between uses.
> > > >
> > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 12:09 PM
> > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> > > Confused and Stupid
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Glurge is the sending of inspirational
> (often
> > > supposedly "true") tales
> > > > that conceal much darker meanings than the
> > > uplifting moral lessons they
> > > > purport to offer, and that undermine their
> > > messages by fabricating and
> > > > distorting historical fact in the guise of
> > > offering a "true
> > > > story."" -snopes.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger--
> > > > >
> > > > > The marine engine industry has concocted
> this
> > > glurge and you keep
> > > > repeating it. They are trying to sell more
> > > motors, they don't give a damn
> > > > about marine pollution. 2-cycle engines have
> > not
> > > been banned. More
> > > > stringent regulations have been established.
> > The
> > > marine engine industry
> > > has
> > > > now developed 2-cycle engines that are cleaner
> > > than most 4-cycle engines.
> > > > >
> > > > > People on this list have constantly
> complained
> > > about the reliability of
> > > > their 4-cycle engines--we read, year after
> year,
> > > elaborate rituals
> > > performed
> > > > before and after every use by 4-cycle engine
> > > owners--what's more, the
> > > > engines exhaust raw fuel into the water every
> > time
> > > they fail to start;
> > > > owners dump multiple "additives" directly into
> > > their fuel; they run their
> > > > engines twice as long as they need them to
> drain
> > > all the fuel after every
> > > > use; they dump the old oil into the water with
> > > every oil change; their
> > > > engines leak oil directly into the water...
> > > > >
> > > > > The population density of wretched excess
> > > conspicuous consumption boats
> > > is
> > > > amazingly high wherever there is money. Here
> on
> > > Long Island Sound I see
> > > 100
> > > > multi-engine gas guzzlers in operation for
> every
> > > PWC.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know you are genuinely concerned about the
> > > environment, and your
> > > > engineering background concentrated on
> removing
> > > pollutants emitted by
> > > > internal combustion engines. No one questions
> > > your competence in the
> > > > technical aspects of this conversation.
> > However,
> > > with regard to the
> > > larger
> > > > point of swapping in a reliable 2-cycle engine
> > > (which will be sold to and
> > > > used by someone else) for a less reliable,
> brand
> > > new 4-cycle engine (which
> > > > exacted additional environmental costs in its
> > > manufacture) to be used
> > > > occasionally on a sailboat, I think you have
> > > allowed your technical
> > > > expertise to cloud your common sense judgment.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 6:53 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm Confused
> Was
> > > (Stupid People Tricks)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve & Rummy,
> > > > >
> > > > > Look, I'll be the 1st to agree that double &
> > > triple engined muscle boats
> > > > are
> > > > > one of the most glaring examples of
> > conspicuous
> > > consumption & wretched
> > > > > excess in the world today. But, they mostly
> > run
> > > with 4-cycle engines &
> > > > they
> > > > > run mostly in deep water, far from shore, &
> > > their population density is
> > > > > usually pretty low. Small 2-cycle outboards
> &
> > > PWC's tend to be much
> > > more
> > > > > numerous, used near shore, in estuaries,
> small
> > > bays, rivers, etc. In
> > > > other
> > > > > words, the small 2-cycle marine engines tend
> > to
> > > be emitting their
> > > > pollution
> > > > > into the waters that are the most productive
> &
> > > most vulnerable in terms
> > > of
> > > > > fish spawning grounds, insect larvae,
> > > crustaceans, plant life, etc.
> > > Make
> > > > no
> > > > > mistake, there is some BAD SHIT in 2-cycle
> > > exhaust smoke & the oily film
> > > > > that these machines lay down on the water;
> > > materials like dioxins,
> > > > > tetrahydrofurans (THF's) & other materials
> > that
> > > are biologically active
> > > at
> > > > > parts per billion concentration & also tend
> to
> > > bioconcentrate up the
> > > food
> > > > > chain. Gentlemen, this is a really bad
> deal!
> > > > >
> > > > > Hey guys, I'm a sailor, just like you. I'm
> > also
> > > a professional chemical
> > > > > engineer, not some tree hugging
> > > environmentalist. I've seen the water
> > > > > quality & biological sampling data & the
> > > supporting analysis. These
> > > > reports
> > > > > have convinced me that marine 2-cycle
> engines
> > > are a problem. Certainly
> > > > the
> > > > > small, low use, 2-cycle outboards used on
> our
> > > R-22's are not the biggest
> > > > > contributor to the problem; BUT, they are
> part
> > > of the problem & not part
> > > > of
> > > > > the solution. It's counterproductive to
> point
> > > your finger at
> > > muscleboats
> > > > &
> > > > > say those folks should be banned until your
> > own
> > > house is in order. The
> > > > > environmental threat from 2-cycle marine
> > engine
> > > exhaust emissions is
> > > real
> > > > &
> > > > > not going away any time soon. Which side of
> > > this issue do you want to
> > > be
> > > > > on?
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Steve Alm" <salm at mn.rr.com>
> > > > > To: "Rhodes" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 2:46 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm Confused
> Was
> > > (Stupid People Tricks)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Rummy, I'm with you. The heavy machinery
> is
> > a
> > > much bigger problem. I
> > > > > doubt
> > > > > > I burn more than fifteen gallons a season.
>
> > > It's a goddang blowboat
> > > for
> > > > > > chirstsake! If they ban 2 cycles, I would
> > > hope that they would put a
> > > > cap
> > > > > on
> > > > > > it--like over 25 or something.
> > > > > > Slim
> > > > > > P.S. You're partying with the wrong
> people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 7/17/03 6:54 PM, "John Tonjes"
> > > <johntonjes at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Roger,
> > > > > > > If 2 cycle engines are outlawed, there
> are
> > > going to be a lot of
> > > > unhappy
> > > > > > > loggers, tree trimmers, grass
> maintenance
> > > compamies and homeowners
> > > who
> > > > > use
> > > > > > > them for everything from blowing leaves
> to
> > > mowing the lawn.
> > > > Personally,
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > would prefer to see the 1000 hp
> cigarette
> > > boats with blowers
> > > outlawed
> > > > > long
> > > > > > > before the 2 cycles are done in. I
> talked
> > > with a guy a few weeks ago
> > > > at
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > party with just such a boat. He can go
> in
> > > excess of 100mph on the
> > > > water.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > didn't bother asking about fuel
> > consumption,
> > > but he did mention he
> > > > > carried
> > > > > > > 110 gallons of high test.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rummy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> [Original Message]
> > > > > > >> From: Roger Pihlaja
> > > <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> > > > > > >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >> Date: 7/17/2003 5:22:54 PM
> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm
> Confused
> > > Was (Stupid People
> > > Tricks)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Steve,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Since 2-cycle engines are currently
> still
> > > legal to operate on most
> > > > > bodies
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > >> water in the United States, everyone
> must
> > > decide for themselves
> > > what
> > > > > they
> > > > > > >> want to do re this issue. Certainly,
> > PWC's
> > > & large 2-cycle
> > > outboards
> > > > > > >> generate lots more pollution & waste
> much
> > > more fuel than the
> > > > relatively
> > > > > > >> small & infrequently used outboards on
> > our
> > > R-22's. I realize
> > > > replacing
> > > > > an
> > > > > > >> outboard engine is an expensive
> > > proposition. I myself did not
> > > switch
> > > > > over
> > > > > > >> to 4-cycle engines overnight. The
> > 2-cycle
> > > Evinrude 6 came
> > > installed
> > > > on
> > > > > > >> Dynamic Equilibrium when the boat was
> > > purchased in 1987 & we ran
> > > with
> > > > > that
> > > > > > >> engine for 9 years. I replaced the
> > 2-cycle
> > > Evinrude 6 on Dynamic
> > > > > > >> Equilibrium with the 4-cycle Honda 8 in
> > > 1996. However, in that
> > > same
> > > > > > > year, I
> > > > > > >> converted the long shaft Evinrude 6
> back
> > to
> > > a standard length shaft
> > > &
> > > > > ran
> > > > > > >> the 2-cycle engine on our 10 foot
> > > inflatable sport dingy until
> > > 2000,
> > > > > when
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > >> purchased the 4-cycle Honda 9.9. I
> > finally
> > > sold the 2-cycle
> > > Evinrude
> > > > > at a
> > > > > > >> yard sale in the summer of 2001. By
> that
> > > point, the Evinrude was
> > > > > getting
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > >> little tired & looked pretty scruffy,
> but
> > > it still ran reasonably
> > > > well.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The nearly 2X greater fuel consumption
> &
> > > more than 10X greater
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > >> emissions issues with 2-cycle marine
> > > engines are real & well
> > > > > documented.
> > > > > > >> Their continued use does not represent
> > good
> > > stewardship of the
> > > > planet.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > >> real question everyone must ask
> > themselves
> > > is, "Do you want to be
> > > > part
> > > > > of
> > > > > > >> the problem or part of the solution?"
> > Long
> > > term, I think 2-cycle
> > > > > marine
> > > > > > >> engines will either be saddled with so
> > much
> > > emissions control
> > > > > technology
> > > > > > >> that the cost, simplicity, & weight
> > > advantages over 4-cycle engines
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > go
> > > > > > >> away or the 2-cycle engine will be
> banned
> > > altogether. There is
> > > > already
> > > > > a
> > > > > > >> small but steadily growing list of
> bodies
> > > of water wherein it is
> > > > > illegal
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > >> operate 2-cycle marine engines. That's
> > > something to ponder when it
> > > > > comes
> > > > > > >> time to replace your current outboard.
> > If
> > > you wait until 2-cycle
> > > > > engines
> > > > > > >> are outlawed; then, your current
> outboard
> > > won't have much resale
> > > > value.
> > > > > > >> I've already voted with my checkbook.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >> From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > > > > > >> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:37 PM
> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm
> Confused
> > > Was (Stupid People
> > > Tricks)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>> Well, Roger, I am sure you saw this
> > coming
> > > but I like
> > > > > > >>> my little 2 cycle motor. Pollution &
> > > all:-)
> > > > > > >>> Steve
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> --- Roger Pihlaja
> > > <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> > > > > > >>>> Richard,
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> I can usually follow your line of
> > > reasoning; but,
> > > > > > >>>> this time I'm confused. The
> discussion
> > > was about
> > > > > > >>>> the relative merits of 2-cycle vs
> > 4-cycle
> > > marine
> > > > > > >>>> engines. What do alcohol burning
> model
> > > airplane
> > > > > > >>>> engines have to do with gasoline
> > burning
> > > marine
> > > > > > >>>> engines?
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > >>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > > >>>>
> > >
> __________________________________________________
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> > >
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