[Rhodes22-list] Sheldon Green

[Michael Meltzer]

believe or not I do not approve the emails, I could but chose not to, also I happy you did respond, you cleared a few things up and
gave me some information I did not know

but to full out the story, not trying to be mean more curious:

I heard the centerboard got hung-up from a grounding when you took the boat out from the ramp. Your the captain and they do not know
your waters. Safe off the trailer is the standard I know and at the rampdock.. Settle for a group option on this one. BTW their is a
longer subject here but you are going to get used to the fact your are "absolute" responsible for everything that happens on the
boat, that the law, go back to the 1600 and how "salvage" works. The classic example: your are below sleeping, in broad daylight and
clear wither the competent helmsman hits the midchannel marker. It your fault. next a passing boat help fix the hole, give you a
spare pump and tows you in(even seatow), the next day a claim is placed on 30-50% of the boat, you have to pay. I am reacting to
your tone more than the centerboard issue, It something you need to understand the issues on the water.

The trailer:The guys bottom painted the boat, that was a nice 700$ hookup BTW, your seen how they do it, they hang it and move the
trailer out of the way. I heard your surveyed claimed it was an 1985, that should have been the tip-off, the crew put the wrong
trailer under it. From what I heard instead of figuring it out Stan got beat up and gave you a dual ale that was worth 1000$ more,
nice hookup. BTW my trailer did have everything listed including spending every summer at triad for upgrade and maintenance, enough
people know it to verify, It was a dam good trailer.

You Forgot to mention the bambini, it sounds small to you but is was a big expensive headache you created. if I got the story right,
I warned you that the removable parts were in ct, stan spend some time cleaning and peeping the boat and to make it good looking
place a new bambini on it, white right?, The parts come down from CT and they put on mine, blue. The boat show and you scream, "I
want the other", BTW I think the blue matches the sails and boat better, Stan play good guy and gives a new white one, 400-500
dollar hookup, now the real problem, they can not be shipped, Elton has to drop it off(trip 1), guess what the hardware does not
match, it not mine(trip 2), I not sure if their was trip 3 and 4, that might have been the centerboard, BTW do not forget delivery
trip. he has what 5 trips in this, he does get paid you know, we will bring up labor later

Elton a few hours late in nominal and with in reason, it what a 400 mile trip, The antenna and Windex get creamed in travel all the
time, it a top of mast thing along  with low breaches, it part of the trailing fiction , everyone on the list has replaced them at
one time. The fact these issues effected you as much is more telling, your going to run into many more issues owning a boat.

Now I hear after Elton tried a few times(that trip thing again) Stan come up on site, pull the boat and fixes the centerboard, he
ever going to the point of buy the tools he needs, found it was hung up by rocks and sand. Now that was a petty good hook up again,
the guy is 78 and SOP is to pull it back to the factory, from what I heard so he would not loose sailing time, great hookup.

The head. I behonest, This is the first I heard of the exact cause. GB usually never has freeze problems, they do not get deep
freezes, by I grant you a blow water value is a blow water value, IIRC I sent you a full rebiuld kit, pressure gage. The unit they
use is selfcontaines, the only place you could be loosing vacuum is a hose clamp(simple) or the value in the head itself(in the
rebuild kit), My issue is it appeared that you were sparing no expense here, what was it 1000+ in labor, like you are playing with
other people money so you do not care, not using due diligence, This guy saw work and told you(and did you let him, no one like a
head job), the installation work fine for 3 years, BTW they always use that excuse valid or not.


BTW how much did the servaror price the boat, I heard around 48,000. is that correct?

now we are talking what 6+ days in the field, delivery, direct cost, GB crew and shop time(they where trying to take care of you),
your time spent with them paperwork cost, your bank issues, lots of gas, weeks of man-hours and then the finial issue, after Stan
covers the center board issue he made a deal that you would take care of the head. This is after allot of good hookups already and
not leaving you hanging ON A USED BOAT!!! After thinks you caused, ansd keeping my mouth shut, then to get short changed, come on

Last thing, who do you think paid for all this? Why do you think I went thought the roof, like I said before, you did not know when
to stop and only keep taking even after your fair shre.

MJM










----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sheldon Green" <sheldongreen at comcast.net>
To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 12:36 AM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Sheldon Green


RESPONSE:

Having purchased Mr. Meltzer's boat we now find ourselves the subject of his
very public vile denigration of our character, coupled with his fairytale
story of the events of the purchase.  While we are not people who air
personal issues in public, given the postings of the last several days, we
would like to at least present our side.  Hopefully Mr. Meltzer will allow
this posting; otherwise you will be reading it in your emails.

In reviewing our buying experience (which Stan suggests "should be fun") .
(1) we had to deal with a Non-Negotiable price, (2) with major discrepancies
between what was offered vs. presented, (3) major system malfunctioning from
time of delivery, and lastly . public abuse by the "keeper of the Rhodies
Web Bulletin Board"!

We apologize, in advance, for this rather lengthy posting to present you
with our understanding of the facts.

First and foremost we want all potential "Rhodies" and existing "Rhodies" to
know that the Rhodes22 is a wonderful boat and a lot of fun to sail!
Regardless of the "tone" of certain postings, you should not hesitate to
fall in love with the Rhodes22, as we have.

Our purchase began in January of 2004, when we went to the AC boat show to
check out a Hunter and fell in love with the Rhodes.  We were not seriously
considering the purchase of a boat at this time, but started making plans to
see if one might be in our future within the next year or two.

We began by doing what most interested people do; we read the board and the
archives and saw the ad for Mr. Meltzer's boat.  Mr. Meltzer's listing can
be found in the archives Jan 19, 2004.  If you view it, you will see that
the boat and all the "extras", including the engine and trailer, are either
listed or implied as 3 years old.

As posted on the board . "after 3 years all build "issues" have been
corrected and tested in high wind conditions.  The boat is in great shape
and ready to sail NOW. The boat has been upgraded to the latest 2003
standards."

We decided that we loved the Rhodes and we wanted to purchase the best boat
we could within our budget. Our approach was strictly that of a business
transaction, like buying a house or a car.  This boat with its extras was
being offered for $40,000.  We posted an inquiry to the board to see if the
boat was still available and Stan responded back that he had a deposit on
it.  That purchase fell through and Stan contacted us and said we could buy
it if we were still interested but we needed to understand that the "price
was NON-NEGOTIABLE".

Without going through the entire list of features, options, and upgrades (as
posted). the boat consisted of a "top of the line", fully loaded, Rhodes 22
(vintage 2001) with additional options including: a Trailer (with SS Disc
Brakes, LED lights, spare tire, etc.), a Yamaha 9.9 hp engine, Vacuum Head,
and various other assorted items.

We put down a deposit and scheduled a visit to the plant to see the boat and
go for a "test drive", if possible.  We hired a boat surveyor to gain an
independent understanding of the boat.  Long story / short . We visited the
plant, our surveyor found the boat to be basically sound with some of the
following significant noted exceptions:  water in the bilge, cracked trailer
bunk, trailer presented was vintage 1997 (no spare tire, no LED lights, nor
SS brakes), 1998 Yamaha engine (vs. 2001), and various additional lesser
items.

As the boat was sitting on a trailer in the GB parking lot, the Surveyor was
unable to test out some of the boat's systems.. specifically the Vacuum Head
and the water system, as there was no water in the boat!

When we presented Stan with the discrepancy noted between the Trailer
presented vs. the Trailer listed as a part of the sale, Stan provided us
with a alternate "comparable" trailer.

When we questioned the age of the engine, Stan suggested that the engine was
older than expected as it may have been "sitting in a warehouse in inventory
for several years prior to purchase and installation".

Now for the delivery of our Rhodes22 .

Forty Thousand dollars is a lot of money for a used boat.  At the very least
we expected every item, as listed, to be in working order.  We also did not
expect to pay for additional expenses that were incurred during the delivery
of the boat.

As buyers, it was our understanding and our expectation that GB was to
provide the following:  (NOTE:  In the absence of a written Sales
Agreement).

1. Delivery in good working order ("Ready to Sail"), with all of the
items functioning properly and intact, as stated in Mr. Meltzer's Offering.
2. Stepping the mast and rigging the boat ready to sail
3. Launching of the boat and safe delivery to its designated slip in
our marina.

Here's what we experienced the day we took delivery of the boat.

1. Because Elton had van problems, he was 4 hours late, arriving
sometime after 2:00 pm.
2. Elton and a fellow "Rhodie" (who often helps out GB) went to "step
the mast" when I noticed that there was a wooden stick (used for
transporting the Jib with the mast) still attached to the mast.. So Elton
had to then drop the mast.
3. When the mast was lowered, the Windex broke off.  So we needed to
purchase a new Windex.
4. Again, Elton went to step the mast, when I noticed that the antenna
was missing.  So we again, lowered the mast, went to the store to pick up an
antenna, and installed the antenna.
5. We finally finished "stepping the mast".. When Elton said that our
"fellow Rhodie" would "Rig the boat" tomorrow, as it was late in the day,
and Elton "needed to hit the road".
6. Our fellow Rhodie took the helm and we proceeded to get stuck, as
none of us was familiar with the area.   NOTE: It was after 6:00 pm, and the
Dock Master was gone for the day... Therefore, there was no one to provide
key information regarding the launch ramp and channel information.  We then
motored over to our slip in the marina.
7. Elton then went through a very short overview of the boat (lasting
about 5-10 minutes).  He did not demonstrate the operation of the Head, the
centerboard, or any of the mechanical / electrical systems.
8. During Elton's brief "talk through", I opened the bilge (inside the
cabin) and noted that there was a significant amount of water.  I pointed
this out to Elton and he suggested that it may have been from rainwater and
it would evaporate in a few weeks.  Note:  Our Boat Surveyor had observed
water in this location several months earlier in his report.
9. Elton left (around 7:30 pm) and our fellow Rhodie returned the next
day to show us how to Rig the boat.
10. When taking our Rhodes out for our "Maiden Voyage", we were unable
to lower our Centerboard.  Please note that Stan was very responsive in
making the necessary "on location" repairs to the centerboard, and it now
seems to work just fine.
11. When attempting to use the Head for the first time, it did not work!
I noticed that that the water valve on the head was cracked and leaking
water.  I believe that this may have been a source of the water in the bilge
as noted above.

Following the delivery of our boat, I ordered a replacement water valve and
installed it myself (at my own expense). This solved the leak and water in
the bilge issues, but did not correct the non-working head issue.

I called the manufacturer again and they directed me to an authorized /
certified repair service in our area to diagnose the problem and make the
required repairs.  Also, in speaking with the manufacturer, they noted that
the head most likely had not been properly "winterized", as evidenced by the
cracked part.

It did not seem very practical to return the boat to the plant for Head
Repairs.  Given that Stan had commented several times, while we were at the
plant, as to how challenging and difficult it was to install this particular
Head (non-standard GB Issue), we didn't feel very comfortable that this was
something that GB would be able to address.  Therefore, we contacted the
local manufacturer's certified repair service to diagnose the problem and
make the necessary repairs.  The manufacture's service rep. noted that the
Head had not been properly installed according to the manufacturer's
specifications.  Furthermore, he also noted that the Holding Tank was full.
Frankly, we couldn't believe that the boat was delivered with the full
holding tank!  We then requested the Marina to Pump out the waste at our
expense.  After correcting the wiring problem and making the initial
necessary repairs, and testing the system, the repairman noted that the
hoses were leaking and not holding a vacuum.  He then returned at a later
date to fix the vacuum leak.  Note that we did not have use of the head at
any time from delivery of the boat, on April 30th, until the final repairs
were made on June 28th. for almost two months!


Since we were unable to test all of the boat's systems or able to see
/review all of the boat's accessories prior to delivery, we withheld $5000
(as agreed with Stan), pending a 30 day review.  We subsequently retained
$1143.47 to cover the cost of repairs for the Head and replacement of the
Antenna and Windex.

We hope that this will clarify the facts for both Mr. Meltzer and the Board!

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