[Rhodes22-list] Computerized Boat

Wed Jun 9 20:14:00 EDT 2004

wireless only get you out of data cables, you still need power cables and they are the ones that go up in smoke with out a fuse(how
many people have a main 40amp fuss at thier battrys?). I agree the "ruggedized" are overpriced. Bill Install networks all the time,
you going to have alot of nea 183 connections which will look like "rs232 comports', it real hard to make that look neat. Franky the
nav software works better on the PC, the larger screen is great. it trying to make it do everything else I have issues with. BTW the
aircraft system work on unix/liux, thier a stripped down version that has been both securityed cheek and every line of source code
has a test case. Commpaneis use it so they only have to prove thier code is correct and save years on delivery.

MJM

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Computerized Boat

Michael,

Programs like Cap'n will allow you to interface instruments directly into them.  They will display the information any way you like,
and will run autopilots.

I've mentioned my friend who bought a brand new Pacific Seacraft which almost burned down to the water line due to an electrical
wire fire that started while he was aboard.  Thanks to his heroic efforts only 1/4 of the boat caught fire.  It didn't sink.
Pacific Seacraft built him another boat, but he didn't have anything at all for a year and a half.  I'm not sure running wires
through fiberglass and splashing salt water on them is any better an idea than running wireless.  They will both fail in that
environment, and it's dumb not to carry compasses and paper charts--and know how to use them.  I know you do.

You can buy a very capable laptop for $800.  It will do everything you need to run a boat better than dedicated instruments.  If you
choose to wire it rather than run wireless, you can--personal preference.

There are Mil-Spec laptops available, but I don't think they pay.  It would cost less to carry a spare laptop in a pelican case--or
2--or 3.  If I get caught in a storm I close up everything, and heave to.  (My friend, in his much larger boat, does the same
thing--he got caught in Hurricane Mitch midway between Annapolis and Bermuda.  They hove to for 2 days.  He has wonderful pictures
of what 50 foot waves actually look like.  The Pardys also heave to in storms in a much smaller boat.  I don't think having access
to wired dedicated instruments will make any difference.  By the way, it's quite calm aboard a hove to boat, even when conditions
are bad.  You would be able to use the laptop in the cabin.)

Bill

PS -- you do fly on airplanes run by Bill Gates.  That's why they sometimes fly directly into mountains.  It's just like your
boat--punch the heading into your auto pilot.  Only grounding a plane under those conditions is worse.

Auto pilots must always be the secondary system.  You must always be the first.  Again, I know you know this.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael Meltzer
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Computerized Boat

well let look at the issues.

what can be done with a pc:
1)radar
2)gps interfacing
3)vhf receive
4)ssb email
5)weather telex
6)nea 183 interface
7)maybe wind
8)charts
9)nav
10) stores and log

not on pc:
1)depth
2)speed thought water
3)autopilot with compass

so at first look the pc has allot, now the ugly problem:
1)allot of the pc functions are coming from separate software packages with propriety  hardware interfaces, verdor lockin's, and NDA
will not solve it
2)because it is general purpose, the connections will be a "rat nest", should be able to get it working, but keeping it working will
be fun :-)
3)I live the same mile, my house wiring does not turn green. also I level stuff on the boat, sound like you area a better boy that
me about bring thing home.
4)Garmin seem to coming out with a system based on 100baset(as in wifi), best bet might bo to use a "co-up" of that system.
5)I am not sure any money would be saved, 1300 for a laptop just to start. intergration issues and headachs.
6)I would not want to fly on a airplane run by BillGates, do I want to be on a boat............
7)Because how the system was put together, best chace to fail is when it is wet and moving around alot, like a storm, sometime you
do have to pay for the testing and engining.
8)for seconday system, no problem but not for the primary.

Still openminded, but I see the pc for more trip planning,email,loging,nav and playing DVD's for the kids that system controls.

MJM

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Computerized Boat

Michael,

The way I sail, water virtually never gets into the cabin unexpectedly.  I am moored 150 feet from shore.  I don't think the air on
my Rhodes is substantially different from the air in the houses on shore.  I think they have more problems caused by salt water than
I do in my home a mile from the water, and I think my computer will not be helped by being in my boat some of the time, but I expect
the computer will be obsolete before it is substantially damaged.

I take the computer everywhere in a Pelican 1520 case with pick and pluck foam.  The case is both water-tight and bullet proof.
It's heavy.  But I have everything I ever need for the computer inside, and the computer never gets hurt.

Because I am always travelling with it these days, I have become religious about backing up.  I move information back and forth, and
I back up to CD ROM, and leave them in various locations.  I also use GoToMyPC so I can get to files I may have left behind.

Adding computerized boat functions, at this point, seems cheap at the price.  Even if I lose a laptop, it will be cheaper than
dedicated instruments to replace it.  And there is much more functionality.

It's an interesting idea, even if it turns out to be a bad one.

Bill

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael Meltzer
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Computerized Boat

the problem I have is saltwater, even thought general computer are cheaper, without being "potted" and fully water sealed very much
doubt they will last, I need to sleep to do this justices, It will pick this up first tomarrow.

MJM

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 8:19 AM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Computerized Boat

Michael,

I don't have the time to think this through right now, but my next boat project will probably be to computerize my boat.  You will
have finished before I start, so a few thoughts.  It seems to me that the portable computers we all have are more than adequate to
the task, and far more capable than the dedicated instruments being marketed as an afterthought by companies full of engineers not
thinking about our problems, or how inexpensively we can get better equipment and software elsewhere.

I am using a Juice 70 to power my laptop on board from the house batteries.  My laptop runs on 90 watts, and the Juice is just 70,
but this is not a problem.  It still fully charges the laptop battery, just takes a little longer.  I take the power unit everywhere
I take the laptop.  Been very satisfied with it.  It also runs off 110, and it will charge other portable things while at the same
time charging the laptop.

I am using a T-Mobile wireless modem.  Slow but solid.  Sprint is twice the speed, but less reliable on my mooring.  What are you
using?

I plan to set up a wifi system on board.  Instruments, music, navigation software, auto tiller, remote screens with very large
letters and numbers, should all run on inexpensive wireless systems.  How many old laptops do I have lying around that will provide
much better displays than the most expensive instruments I would ever consider for this boat?  And if they get wet...my wife will be
so happy to see them go, she'll probably keep pouring drinks on them so I'll replace them with another, and have one fewer in the
house.

Laptop navigation software is far more capable than the software that comes with the instruments.  The charts are now free.  The
software will run the auto pilot--an infinite number of waypoints--any length name--an infinite number of routes--automatic
updating--weather, GPS, radar, tides, and currents can all be plugged in.   Have you tried the Fugawi?  I've used Cap'n.  What are
you using now?  What do you like?

Bill Effros

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael Meltzer
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 2:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] autopilots

I know more after geeting the boat, but at the wheel my thinking is :-)

CS4500 airmar
raymarine tridata/60
raymarine st4000 mkii
standard horizion ram mic

a maybe on 60/wind and sometype of fishfinder and chartpototer, or a ray 120 gps and a "head" for it.

all the "stuff" to be mounted on navman pod on the wheel guard.

I leaning to the 4000 becuase on intergration issues(match and ties into the 60's), I want the new 6000+ system with the rate gryo
but it is overpriced(IMHO), the simrad wp30cx might work for you also, it seem the wheel polits are half the price and a lot simpler
to install that the below deck ones. Also I want to keep the option to take the wheel off and rail mount is out of the way, the 4000
seem like it will do that.

MJM

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RUSSELL MILLER" <re.miller at worldnet.att.net>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 3:33 PM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] autopilots

Thinking of purchasing an autopilot for the new Bulldog (Seaward26RK)  suited for wheel steering.  Looking for suggestions, advise,
etc.

Russ
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