lee helm was Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????

[Mary Lou Troy]

Thanks for adding food for thought  Lloyd - I figured that if Peter's 
tracks were longer, someone else probably had them too. One never knows 
whether a difference is evolution or variation until others chime in. What 
is your headsail and do you ever use those cars that far back?

Mary Lou




At 12:02 AM 3/15/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Mary Lou,
>
>My '84 Rhodes has the same length genoa track as Peter's, i.e., extending
>about to the Rhodes 22 nameplate.  I can move the cars well aft of the
>winches.
>
>Lloyd
>s/v Uhuru II
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mary Lou Troy" <mltroy at verizon.net>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:27 PM
>Subject: Re: lee helm was Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
>
>
>Peter,
>I think you have a long genoa track (or maybe the right length ;-) ). I
>just spent a while looking at the R22 pics on my hard drive and on the
>rhodes22.org site. Looks like most are about like Fretless though there is
>a small variation - none as long as yours though.
>
>Fretless was purchased recycled with a new genoa and main by Doyle
>Offshore. Stan and crew set her up and Stan actually sailed her briefly in
>a moderate breeze. The genoa is on a GBI furler so I suspect there isn't
>anything unusual with the forestay. Stan has commented that R22s tend to a
>neutral helm and that it is not uncommon for them to have slight lee helm
>in light air but that as the winds kick up the lee helm goes away.
>Obviously we've had more of an issue with it than that but we are working
>on it for just the reasons you list.
>
>Thanks again,
>Mary Lou
>
>At 07:54 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >Mary Lou,
> >
> >Given that the board is all the way down and as forward as possible, then
> >the only way to cure lee helm would be to move the rig aft.  If your move
> >the rig's Center of Effort aft, the lee helm would reduce, then go away.
> >Move it far enough and you will have weather helm.  The devil is in
> >determining exactly how much distance to move aft.  I think lengthening the
> >forestay is a great place to start.
> >
> >B/T/W, I just looked at a great picture of Fretless, Fred and you
>(attached)
> >showing your big 175 and Genoa tracks.  The tracks do not appear to extend
> >past the winches.  On Phoenix, the tracks start at about the same place as
> >they do on Fretless, but they extend almost to the "Rhodes 22" nameplate. I
> >suppose there is a lot of rigging variance among R22s.  If so, it makes me
> >wonder if all R22s have the same length forestay and other standing
>rigging.
> >Clearly, the I, J, P and E are set by Phillip Rhodes, but that still leaves
> >a lot of room for standing rigging adjustment.   I've never seen an R22
> >specification that includes this information.  Have you or anyone?
> >
> >In one-design classes, sailmakers publish "tuning guides" that recommend
> >specific lengths for various standing rigging parts, to optimize trimming
> >their sails.  Perhaps you could contact the sailmaker of your Genoa and
> >obtain a recommended forestay length and other standing rigging dimensions
> >for Fretless with the IMF and 175.  This could give you an idea if your
> >current forestay could be way out.
> >
> >To answer your question about trimming the Genoa more forward than its
> >current aft position on the tracks, imagine the situation like this:  1)
>the
> >sail is a big triangle, fixed to the stem fitting at the tack, which cannot
> >move; 2) lengthening the forestay would rotate the sail head aft: 3) the
> >clew would be correspondingly rotated down toward the deck; 4) this would
> >move the trim point forward on the Genoa track.
> >
> >Most boats are designed with a slight weather helm as a safety factor so in
> >a puff or heavy air, you can count on the boat rounding up to a luff if the
> >tiller is let go.  A boat with lee helm just wants to bear off and take on
> >more air, if left to its own devices.  Under adverse conditions this could
> >cause some problems - an uncontrolled and unexpected gybe, for example.  I
> >think this is a problem worth solving.
> >
> >Fair winds,
> >
> >PT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Peter,
> >I'm not following. I don't think there is any way that the clew of the
> >genoa will trim forward on the tracks - no matter how far aft we rake the
> >mast. Closehauled, our 175 trims right to the aft end of our genoa track by
> >the winch. I don't believe the inch or so that we can adjust the forestay
> >(We have a couple of holes left on the adjuster) will make much difference
> >in where the genoa will trim to  - it might however improve the helm -
> >that's what we're hoping. I don't think we would want the mast raked any
> >more than that.
> >
> >In response to your other suggestion, we have measured to make sure the
> >mast is true and haven't found any problems.
> >
> >You are correct that the IMF requires a dead straight mast - no bend. The
> >good news is that with the double walls in the mast I 'm not sure you could
> >bend it if you tried - something else would probably break first. We have
> >been fussing with rig tuning for the past couple of years and have decided
> >that we were initially sailing with it too loose. Thanks for all the
> >suggestions. We'll keep mulling things over as we get ready for launch.
> >
> >Mary Lou
> >
> >
> >
> >At 04:22 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Mary Lou,
> > >
> > >"Sailing with the 175 all the way out
> > >(light air), we have the lead cars all the way back on the Genoa track"
> > >
> > >That seems like the smoking gun to me, so I think you have already
> > >discovered the problem.  If the forestay is too short and is pulling the
> >rig
> > >forward, that certainly could give you lee helm.
> > >
> > >Most sails are designed and cut to power up at the forward most Genoa car
> > >position.  For example, with the Genoa cars all the way forward and going
> > >close hauled, when you head up the Genoa should break evenly along the
> >luff,
> > >top to bottom.  With this set up to depower, instead of furling,  you can
> > >just pull the Genoa car back and the top leech opens and spills air.
> > >Because your entire rig is so far forward, to get the luff to break
>evenly
> > >you have already moved the Genoa car all the way aft and have no room
> > >remaining to adjust sheet leads aft.  Your existing 175 is probably cut
> >just
> > >fine, but on too short a forestay pulling the top of the mast too far
> > >forward.
> > >
> > >To correct this tuning problem you could determine exactly how much
>longer
> > >the forestay needs to be so that the clew of the 175, when close-hauled,
> > >trims near the front of the Genoa tracks. I'll bet you and Fred could do
> > >this in the backyard, on a calm day, with the rig up and 175 fully out.
> >Try
> > >to get the boat's waterline reasonably level with the trailer jacks (this
> >is
> > >not critically important).  Don't attach the forward lower shrouds (to
> >allow
> > >the mast to learn aft) and get a 15' or so piece of strong line, like
>5/32
> > >spectra, that you could loop between the bottom forestay fitting and the
> > >stem head fitting 3 or 4 times, for a good purchase.  Tie this off and
>then
> > >take up loose tension with the backstays.  When you have increased the
>mast
> > >rake so that your 175 clew trims forward on the tracks, you'll know
>exactly
> > >how much longer (than your existing) to order a new forestay.
> > >
> > >As far as this port/starboard lee helm variance thing goes, have you
> >checked
> > >you rig for "trueness"?  (You might want to do this first, so you'll know
> >if
> > >it really is way out of adjustment before you try the forestay thing):
> >With
> > >your boat rigged on the trailer, attach a tape measure to a masthead
> >halyard
> > >and lock off the halyard.  Then, with tape tight, measure to the
>starboard
> > >deck and then to the port deck, being sure to measure to corresponding
>same
> > >spots.  A boat with a "true" mast will result in equal measurements.  If
> > >yours is way out, that could be the culprit.
> > >
> > >I am not a rig tuning expert by any means.  I suspect the IMF main
>probably
> > >always requires a dead straight mast, so as not to mess up the internal
> > >roller.  There is a lot of reference material available about how to do
> >tune
> > >rigs.  I have read that too loose a rig can be dangerous because it
>allows
> > >large forces to develop when gusts and waves combine.  Too tight a rig
>just
> > >overstresses the hull.  Like Goldilocks' porridge, your rig should be
>tuned
> > >"just right".. A quick Google search tuned up plenty of resources (tapes,
> > >books) and some looked pretty good.
> > >
> > >I hope some of this is helpful to you.
> > >
> > >Fair Winds,
> > >
> > >PT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Peter,
> > >Our lee helm is more noticeable in light air - though even in higher
> > >windspeeds we need to furl with the helm in mind. It is more prominent on
> > >port tack - maybe something to do with the big outboard on the port stern
> > >or the heavy galley to starboard or....?  We seem to have more issues
>than
> > >other R22s. I've heard a number of reports of lee helm or neutral in
>light
> > >air but we've had significant lee helm at 10 knots. We've made lots of
> > >changes with weight distribution, making sure the centerboard drops all
>the
> > >way and tightening the backstays. Some of these improved the situation
>but
> > >it's still there. This year we're going to let the forestay out a notch
>at
> > >the masthead. We meant to do it last year but forgot and it wasn't enough
> > >of a problem to drop the mast again. Sailing with the 175 all the way out
> > >(light air), we have the lead cars all the way back on the genoa track.
>Are
> > >you suggesting that with it partially furled we should keep the cars a
>bit
> > >further aft than we might ordinarily? We'll have to try to remember that.
> > >As might be expected, we also can make improvements playing with the
> > >traveler. We didn't get many opportunities to sail in steady winds last
> > >year so most of our playing around was from the year before.
> > >
> > >Not really sure about our ideal big genoa. For a long time I thought it
> > >would be smaller than a 175 but we had 6 or 7 sails this past year where
> > >the 175 was just perfect. Don't know if we'd have done nearly as well
>with
> > >a 155 or 160 but maybe so. It would definitely be lighter than the
>current
> > >very heavy sailcloth. The heaviness is necessary I suppose if you are
>never
> > >going to change sails but I like the idea of having several.  I'll be
> > >interested to hear what Wally thinks once he has his new sail - whatever
>it
> > >is.
> > >
> > >Mary Lou
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >At 12:58 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Mary Lou,
> > > >
> > > >Just a thought...   To get rid of lee helm with your 175, have you
>tried
> > > >moving the genoa lead tack point much farther aft on the genoa track?
> >This
> > > >should spill air from the top of the sail, lower the headsail's center
>of
> > > >effort, and, combined with an appropriate amount of furling for the
> > > >conditions, perhaps help to balance the helm.  I agree that you would
> >also
> > > >want to keep as much main out as possible, as you suggested, to
>maintain
> > >the
> > > >Center of  Effort  farther aft and that the IMF, with no roach, would
> >tend
> > > >to aggravate this condition because it's CE is farther forward.
> > > >
> > > >Under what conditions do you develop lee helm?
> > > >
> > > >What size and weight would your "ideal big genoa" be?
> > > >
> > > >Fair winds,
> > > >
> > > >PT
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Mary Lou Troy" <mltroy at verizon.net>
> > > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:04 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Wally, we reduce sail well before 20 knots (actual or apparent)
> >windspeed.
> > > >Our 175 seems to be the perfect sail from 4 to 10 knots. I suspect we
> >begin
> > > >to furl it a little before 10 if it's gusty. I don't think we've ever
> >tried
> > > >Bill's method of furling the main more than the genny as we are always
> > > >trying to get rid of lee helm. For the record we don't like the 175 for
> > > >much below 4 knots of wind - the sailcloth is just too heavy to keep
>the
> > > >sail full in any kind of wave action - that's one of the reasons we
>went
> >to
> > > >the UPS for really light air.
> > > >
> > > >My current thinking on an ideal set of sails for our boat and the way
>we
> > > >sail would be the UPS, a somewhat lighter big genoa and a heavier
> >125-130.
> > > >
> > > >I think a standard main with a roach would affect heeling differently
> >than
> > > >the IMF main. I also suspect (but don't know) that furling our mains
>the
> > > >way we do makes them more susceptible to having them develop a blown
>out
> > > >belly and that this may affect heeling as well. I've also noticed that
>it
> > > >is easier to get a flatter main with our new through-the-boom outhaul
> > > >arrangement - we used to have to tie the outhaul off to a horn cleat so
> >it
> > > >was not very adjustable on the go.
> > > >
> > > >Mary Lou
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >At 10:27 AM 3/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >I have IMF. I am amazed at the range of comments regarding wind speed
> >and
> > > > >sail selection. I don't see how it could matter if I had IMF or
> >Standard
> > > > >main. My boat needs sails reduced in 20 plus.
> > > > >
> > > > >Wally
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > > >>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> > > > >>Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:59:49 -0500
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Standard main or IMF?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Bill Effros
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>----- Original Message -----
> > > > >>From: Wally Buck
> > > > >>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > >>Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 11:14 AM
> > > > >>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>My boat must be light or something. At 20 heading upwind my 125 is
> > >furled
> > > >to
> > > > >>keep me off the rail and I am fighting a 30 degree heel.  Most
>likely
> > >the
> > > > >>boom is lowered halfway as well. I like exciting sails as much as
> >anyone
> > > >and
> > > > >>more than most. Too bad you can't try sails out and return them like
> > > >clothes
> > > > >>that don't quite fit!
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Still have an open mind .....
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Wally
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > > >> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> > > > >> >Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:04:45 -0500
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Twice in one day.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Again, Wally, I agree with Rummy.  I rarely furl below 20 knots.
>I
> > >sail
> > > > >> >the boat upright with minimum heel.  I generally sail alone.  The
> >175
> > > >makes
> > > > >> >it very easy to come about.  I adjust sail sizes to keep the boat
> >well
> > > > >> >balanced.  When I'm sailing in crowded harbors I reduce the size
>of
> > >the
> > > >175
> > > > >> >so I can see the traffic better.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Bill Effros
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> >From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
> > > > >> >To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > >> >Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:18 PM
> > > > >> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Wally,
> > > > >> >When you furl depends a lot on your style of sailing and how much
> > > >ballast
> > > > >> >(people weight) you have with you. When alone, I never furl until
> >the
> > > >winds
> > > > >> >gust
> > > > >> >above 20 knots. Below that and I'm comfortable. The 175 is an
> >awesome
> > > >sail.
> > > > >> >Besides looking good, it is an excellent performer in lite air as
> >Bill
> > > > >> >mentioned. By the way, I think this is one of the first times
>anyone
> > >has
> > > > >> >agreed with me
> > > > >> >on the list.....I appreciate your support Bill.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Rummy
> > > > >> >__________________________________________________
> > > > >> >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >> >__________________________________________________
> > > > >> >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >>
> > > > >>_________________________________________________________________
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