[Rhodes22-list] I Wish To Change My Vote
brad haslett
flybrad at yahoo.com
Thu Oct 7 10:17:35 EDT 2004
Bill,
It's tempting to challenge you on the "nits and noys"
of your version of Vietnamese history but like you,
time is limited. My version of "Ho Chi Minh: A Life"
by William J. Duiker doesn't quite line up with your
take on history but let's look at the bigger picture.
The United States dropped the ball at the end of WW2
when we declared victory and went home. The price we
paid was Communist China, the Warsaw Pact countries,
Korea, Vietnam, and the whole Cold War. If you don't
think the fight against communism was worth it or
hundreds of millions of people didn't suffer as a
result of it, you probably don't sleep with a former
communist as I do. Reagan had the vision and the guts
to put this scourge on humanity to its death by
espousing a simple idea, "all mankind yearns to be
free". What is your idea? Should we build a "Great
Wall" or an "Iron Curtain" around the US and guarantee
freedom to those lucky enough to have been born here
and the rest of you are on your own?
The war on terror is not about one man, one group, one
country. Its about a whole philosophy that says
"you're an infidel so we will kill you". This is not
idle talk, they did in New York City and have been
doing it for over twenty years and they will do it
again. What do you suggest, peace talks?
Brad
PS. To whoever suggested that we could have used the
money spent on the war for "heating assistance" let me
make this suggestion. Find someone you like and buy
them some heat. That's what I do for my parents and
it works well.
--- Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
> Roger,
>
> What the hell are you talking about?
>
> I don't have the time to go over this point by
> point, and I don't really care who you vote for, but
> your history lesson regarding what we should have
> learned from Vietnam should be chiseled into the
> Vietnam War Memorial right next to George
> Santayana's oft quoted "Those who cannot learn from
> history are doomed to repeat it."
>
> Let's just do a fast review.
>
> Ho Chi Minh orgaized the Vietnamese Communist Party
> in 1930 (before WWII) to throw out the French who
> had been running Vietnam since before our Civil War.
>
> The Japanese invaded Vietnam in 1940 but let the
> French keep running the place. Ho Chi Minh was the
> resistance to the Japanese invasion. Because of the
> Japanese invasion of French Vietnam, the United
> States finally cut off oil to Japan (we were the
> Saudi Arabia of the world at that time) after
> declaring ourselves "neutral" in the mid 1930s so we
> could continue to ship oil to Germany, Italy, and
> Japan to fuel their war machines--without which they
> could not have started WWII. By the time we stopped
> shipping oil to the original "Axis Powers", they had
> captured other sources and didn't need us any more.
> Our cut off of oil to Japan was bitterly opposed by
> the oil interests in the US who claimed Roosevelt
> did it to provoke Japan into attacking us at Pearl
> Harbor.
>
> In 1945 we parachuted special forces teams into
> Vietnam to save Ho Chi Minh's life when he fell ill
> because he remained the sole viable opposition to
> Japan in the region.
>
> Later that year, after the defeat of the Japanese,
> Ho Chi Minh delcared a democratic Vietnam.
>
> The French decided they wanted Vietnam back, and
> shelled the country, killing thousands of civilians.
> We backed French Colonial rule and their puppet
> emperor, turning our backs on democracy.
>
> We provided the French with money to support the
> French attempt to re-occupy Vietnam.
>
> In 1950 we sent 35 guys to help the French. By the
> end of the year we were footing 1/2 the bill for the
> French. General MacArthur told us the French would
> do the dirty work "I think that 150,000 elite French
> troops should have settled the issue in about 4
> months." That's more guys than we've got in Iraq
> right now. The populations of the 2 countries are
> roughly the same. We're not doing any better.
>
> In 1954 Ho Chi Minh threw the French out.
>
> Ho Chi Minh wanted to hold an election, but we
> wouldn't let him because we knew he would win in a
> landslide. Instead, we imported an exile living in
> the US and said he's going to be the ruler of the
> new country of South Vietnam. (Does any of this
> sound familiar?)
>
> Fighting breaks out in 1956.
>
> In 1961 we start building up our troops in Vietnam.
> (Are you counting the years, Roger--not
> months--YEARS!)
>
> By 1965 we've got 200,000 troops in Vietnam.
>
> By 1966 we've got 400,000 troops in Vietnam.
>
> By 1968 we've got 540,000 troops in Vietnam--not to
> mention the 700,000 man South Vietnamese Army.
> We've dropped more bombs on little Vietnam than we
> dropped on Germany. We're defoliating the jungle
> with Agent Orange. We're dropping jellied gasoline
> on women and children. We're declaring "free fire
> zones" in which we kill anything that moves.
>
> Our military guys are telling us "We've got them
> now!"
>
> THEN CAME TET!
>
> A one time military offensive? They held off the
> French, the Japanese, the French again and then us
> for 38 years up to that point. The Japanese decided
> not to try to fight Ho Chi Minh, but to leave that
> to the French. Ho Chi Minh took out the French at
> Dien Bien Phu in 1954. (The French declared Dien
> Bien Phu a victory.) We had 5 times as many guys
> over there as we have in Iraq now. We had trained
> 15 times as many Vietnamese as we've trained Iraqis.
>
> In 1968 just before the election, Nixon says he's
> got a secret plan to end the war. It's so secret he
> can't tell anybody what it is--we've just got to
> trust him. The Bushies don't even have a SECRET
> plan.
>
> In 1969 we start secretly bombing neighboring
> neutral Cambodia. Troop strength is still 480,000
> in Vietnam.
>
> In 1970 troop strength is still 280,000.
>
> In 1971 troop strength is still 140,000.
>
> In 1972 Nixon is conducting secret negotiations to
> cut and run, just before the next election.
>
> In 1973 we split--that is 5 years after the Tet
> Offensive. Do you really want to send your own sons
> to Iraq to bring free elections to that
> land--(Saddam had free elections, too--at our
> insistence and with our backing) or is this
> something to be done only by other people's sons and
> daughters. Why haven't your sons volunteered? Why
> didn't Bush's girls volunteer if this is so
> important, and so noble? Why not Cheney's kids? Or
> Wolfowitz? Or Perle? Or Rik's kids? Or Brad's?
>
> Because none of you believes a word of what you're
> saying!
>
> In 1975--45 years after Ho Chi Minh started his
> independence movement--the North Vietnamese, who had
> no army left according to your version of history,
> took apart the South Vietnamese Army and overran the
> whole country.
>
> Is this the history you want us to repeat?
>
> But that isn't my real question, Roger. Here's my
> real question, here's what I really don't get:
>
> If things keep going the way they've been going you
> may never again work in your chosen field. You tell
> us you may have to sell your beloved boat. You have
> spent your retirement money on retraining, and you
> still don't have a job. Is this really what you
> want for this country? Do you want 4 more years of
> idiotic foreign policy coupled with idiotic domestic
> policy? You could be on some form of welfare for
> the rest of your life. What's wrong with you?
>
> I just don't get it.
>
> Bill Effros
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> T
>
>
> To download a free copy of the electronic book
> "Quote Without Comment"
>
> Click on or copy this address and load it into your
> web browser:
>
http://www.quotewithoutcomment.com/qwc.cgim?template=FreeBook
>
> Want to see more quotes?
> http://www.QuoteWithoutComment.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roger Pihlaja
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 11:57 AM
> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] I Wish To Change My Vote
>
>
> Well, after watching the presidential & vice
> presidential debates, I wish to pull a flip flop &
> change my vote to Bush/Cheney. Let me explain my
> thinking.
>
> As a draftable male college student in the early
> 1970's, I watched developments in the Vietnam war &
> the protest movement here at home with great
> interest. John Kerry's presidential candidacy has
> made me reexamine my own attitudes towards Vietnam.
> There were a lot of mistakes made in the way the
> United States conducted the Vietnam war -
> presidential
=== message truncated ===
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