[Rhodes22-list] I Wish To Change My Vote

[Steve Alm]

Rik,

Roger made himself very clear.  I don't think I misunderstood him when he
said "oil is blood" and "I would argue this is a really good reason to go to
war." and when he said  "If the Iraq war escalates and we have to have a
draft; then, both Daniel & Gary are prepared to serve."

My position lies somewhere in between death for oil and sitting around the
campfire sing Kum Ba Ya.

Slim

On 10/7/04 6:59 AM, "Rik Sandberg" <sanderico at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Slim,
> 
> I'm not Roger again........ But
> 
> There's a heck of a lot more to this than "You'll send your two boys to
> die for oil".  Doesn't it bother you just a bit when Muslim extremists
> blow up one of the biggest office buildings in the world and kill 3000
> of our citizens?? Would you rather lay back and wait to see how long it
> takes for them to do it again??? Don't forget Slim, we (yes, you and me)
> are infidels and these people have gotten the idea that it is their duty
> to wipe us off the face of the planet for God. You ain't gonna stop that
> by sitting around the camp fire singing Kum-ba-ya(sp). Thank God for
> people like Roger who are realistic enough to realize it.
> 
> Rik
> 
> Steve Alm wrote:
> 
>> Roger,
>> 
>> I'll certainly give you credit for your intellectual honesty.  You come
>> right out and say it.  You'll send your two boys to die for oil. I don't
>> know how I can argue with that, but when I read your earlier post on how
>> they're both kicking ass in school, I can't help but think what a tragic
>> waste that would be.   They have bright futures ahead of them.  Why
>> jeopardize that?  They're both of the age where they could be drafted--that
>> means it's not THEIR decision, but rather a decision made for them by
>> politicians.  It seems like that's what you really want, and so the chances
>> of talking you out of that are slim and none.  I'll just have to accept the
>> fact that one of the great minds here on the Rhodes list has adopted a
>> hawkish, blood-lust mentality, even to the expense of his own children.  I
>> regret that.
>> 
>> You say that GWB deserves the benefit of the doubt. Come on, man, he's HAD
>> the benefit of the doubt.  He got elected president--well, not exactly.  But
>> what he deserves now more than ever is scrutiny!  I don't hold politicians
>> up to godlike standards--that's asking way too much!  I just want them to be
>> responsible, intelligent and honest and I don't think GWB has been any of
>> those.  
>> 
>> I'm not even going to try to offer solutions for untangling the mess in the
>> middle east.  I'm not informed enough nor smart enough.  I don't know who
>> is.  Pull out? Stay in? Sounds like what happened at the drive-in when I was
>> 16.  But I sure as Hell will not let Michael Moore OR Rush Limbaugh tell me
>> what to think.  I go with my gut.  And my gut tells me that there's gotta be
>> a better way.  Maybe it's naïve to be optimistic but that's why I vote for
>> change.  The Bush administration has shown us nothing but fear, contempt and
>> aggression.  If that's how you want America to be characterized, then he's
>> your man.
>> 
>> I'm frustrated that John Kerry is the best that the dems can come up with.
>> I don't really like him much at all.  And I definitely don't like John
>> Edwards. Come to think about it, I don't like any of these jackasses, so a
>> guy's gotta vote for the lesser of two evils.  I don't like it but that's
>> the reality.  Kerry hasn't done anything to piss me off and Bush has.  I
>> hear a lot of noise about Kerry's voting record, but have you really looked
>> at it yourself?  Have you counted votes and read all the bills and their
>> riders for 30 years and decided for yourself?  Probably not. OK, he's a
>> Massachusetts liberal and he votes on the left--that ain't news.  But when
>> in doubt--dump the incumbent and get a fresh start.
>> 
>> Roger, there's nothing wrong with flip-flopping.  There's still time to
>> change your mind again.  Don't put Daniel and Gary in harm's way!
>> 
>> Slim Chance
>> 
>> On 10/6/04 5:43 PM, "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> Rummy,
>>> 
>>> This is the real world and the answers are not in the back of the textbook.
>>> We grope along as best we can using the best intelligence assessments
>>> available, making the best decisions possible with the data available at the
>>> time the decision has to be made.  You are accusing the President of the
>>> United States of going to war with Iraq to settle a blood feud with Saddam
>>> Hussein regarding the dictator's attempt to have Bush Sr. assonated.  This
>>> involved lying to the US congress and the American people.  Pretty strong
>>> stuff!  If true, it would definitely rise to the level of an impeachable
>>> offense.  If there was any proof of this sort of conspiracy, the democratic
>>> side of the aisle in congress would be screaming for impeachment.  I will
>>> wait for the judgement of history; but, I doubt Bush is guilty of anything
>>> worse than believing bad intelligence.  Until some sort of reasonable proof
>>> is forthcoming, I think the President of the United States deserves the
>>> benefit of the doubt.
>>> 
>>> We hold our leaders up against a Godlike standard of performance.  It's
>>> Bush's fault that 3000 people died on 9/11.  It's Bush's fault that the
>>> entire world intelligence community AT THE TIME believed Iraq had WMD's.
>>> It's Bush's fault that we toppled a brutal dictator's regime & then found
>>> out the prewar intelligence assessment was wrong.
>>> 
>>> I'll accept the judgement of history regarding the validity of going to war
>>> with Iraq.  The question is, what do we do right now to move forward?  The
>>> data on Kerry strongly suggests he is nothing but an appeaser who will cut &
>>> run at the 1st opportunity in Iraq.  This will almost certainly make the
>>> situation much worse.  Kerry can bluster and bellow all he wants about how
>>> he will defend this country during the campaign.  He'll be looking for a way
>>> out of Iraq the 1st time our nose gets bloody.  His 30 year record of public
>>> service indicates he has no stomach for war.  No other countries will join
>>> our coalition under Kerry either because his commitment to the mission in
>>> Iraq is so weak.  He will use this as another excuse to cut and run.
>>> 
>>> If the Iraq war escalates and we have to have a draft; then, both Daniel &
>>> Gary are prepared to serve.  Deb & I will worry about their safety every
>>> day, just like any other parent.  FYI, Gary's choosen career in law
>>> enforcement isn't exactly the safest career choice a guy could make.  But,
>>> Deb & I support his decision.
>>> 
>>> Japan & Germany are two democratic success stories brought about by a long
>>> bloody war.  I don't understand your point.
>>> 
>>> Rummy, if you don't like the cut of Bush's jib; in this country, that's a
>>> perfectly acceptable reason to not vote for him.  All I'm asking is that you
>>> be intellectually honest with yourself regarding your reasons.  Michael
>>> Moore style propaganda isn't necessarily true no matter how many film awards
>>> he wins or how many times he shouts it.
>>> 
>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 1:12 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I Wish To Change My Vote
>>> 
>>> 
>>>    
>>> 
>>>> Roger,
>>>> If you truly believe that the U.S. invaded Iraq to get rid of the
>>>>      
>>>> 
>>> terrorists,
>>>    
>>> 
>>>> I'm sorry, but you are truly mistaken. We went into Iraq to finish what
>>>>      
>>>> 
>>> "W"s
>>>    
>>> 
>>>> father didn't and couldn't and also because Sadam tried to have his father
>>>> killed. Plain and simple.
>>>> Starting a war is easy. Finishing it and getting out of it whole is an
>>>> entirely different story. Besides Vietnam, Japan and Germany come to mind
>>>>      
>>>> 
>>> as well as
>>>    
>>> 
>>>> countless others. War is not a solution to any problems. People die. It
>>>>      
>>>> 
>>> also
>>>    
>>> 
>>>> brings out the worst in people.
>>>> Let me ask you a question? How do you think President Bush is going to get
>>>>      
>>>> 
>>> us
>>>    
>>> 
>>>> out of Iraq? What will the price be? Will we ever really win?
>>>> 
>>>> Rummy
>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>      
>>>> 
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>>>    
>>> 
>> 
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>>  
>> 
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