[Rhodes22-list] What do you do with monsters?
Roger Pihlaja
cen09402 at centurytel.net
Sun Sep 5 18:52:07 EDT 2004
Steve,
You're forgetting that the US currently imports about 21 billion barrels of
crude oil per day. The Middle East contains about 2/3 of the proven global
reserves of crude oil. Like it or not, the West runs on crude oil and there
is no solution to this problem on the horizon. Until we exhaust the Middle
Eastern petroleum reserves in about 40-50 years, the area is going to be
very important to the West. Threatening the reliable supply of a critical
strategic resource is a very good reason to go to war, actually one of the
best reasons.
North Korea is troublesome, no doubt about that. But, they have no
strategically valuable resources and they are surrounded on all sides by
countries that are major trading partners with the United States - S. Korea,
China, Taiwan, Japan, India, etc. It is in all of these Asian countries
best interests to help keep N. Korea in check and they are in a far better
position to do that than the United States. I believe in the end, the
solution to N. Korea is to reunite N. & S. Koreas. In the meantime, if N.
Korea wants to sell WMD technology to terrorists; then, that's just another
aspect of what I meant when I said we live in a very scary period of
history. I hope we all survive to talk about it in our old age.
As far as nations getting the governments they deserve, I don't follow the
logic of that premise. Modern day Iraq was formed by the British after WWI.
One can argue that colonial imperialism, lack of planning, and poor nation
building by the British is at the root cause of much of the current
situation in Iraq. It's not clear to me how the Iraqi people had anything
to do with &/or deserve the situation which the British governement thrust
them into all those years ago.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Alm" <salm at mn.rr.com>
To: "Rhodes" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 5:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] What do you do with monsters?
> Roger,
>
> I'm glad you're out on the side of Kerry/Edwards and I think you're right
on
> about the WMD. We know Saddam had them and there's no evidence of their
> disposal--so they have to be somewhere, right? But we part company on the
> issue that Bush did us a favor in Iraq for which the world owes him a debt
> of gratitude. Let's ask the families of the 1000 dead US soldiers and the
> thousands more wounded if they think Bush did them a favor.
>
> Start with this premise: Nations get the government they deserve. If
> you'll go along with me on that, then why would we bother to oust Saddam?
> Nobody denies that he is an evil monster and SHOULD be ousted, but was it
> worth the deaths of our fellow Americans to do so? I say no! He had WMD
> but did he dare use them on Israel? On us? UK? Supposing that he MIGHT
> use them is nothing but pure speculation. I think he was being pretty
well
> contained by the no-fly zone, UN resolutions, sanctions, etc. He was
> hogtied. Yes, he imprisoned, tortured and murdered his dissidents, but
why
> does the US care about that and then stay silent on the numerous other
> tyrants in the world that have done and continue to do the same? Why
fight
> in Iraq but not North Korea? Why fight in Iraq when, clearly, the enemy
is
> in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia? It just doesn't make sense.
> Unless you're following the money trail--then it does! But that's a
> despicable reason to send our countrymen to their graves.
>
> My fellow Minnesotans are DEAD! So are your fellow Michiganders, Roger.
> What if it were Daniel or Gary?! Heaven forbid!! Our kids aren't dying
> for freedom or democracy or any lofty goals like that. That's not what
> we're fighting over. Keeping your eye on the ball is right: They're dying
> for the absurd political/economic bullshit of our leadership. Debt of
> gratitude? NO! It just isn't an acceptable trade-off.
>
> Steven Alm
>
>
> On 9/4/04 10:22 AM, "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
>
> > Gentlemen,
> >
> > After a great deal of thought, I've decided I'm going to vote for
> > Kerry/Edwards in November. Let me explain why.
> >
> > 1st of all, there is absolutely no doubt that Iraq had WMD. By that I
mean
> > stockpiles of chemical & biological weapons, the means to produce them,
> > systems to deliver them, & a well-developed nuclear weapons program, if
not
> > actual nukes. Saddam Hussein acted like he had something to hide, had a
> > well-documented history of using WMD against Iran and his own people,
and
> > had a fanatically loyal organization in place which would use these WMD
if
> > ordered. Now, several thousand liters of the most toxic stuff known to
man
> > does not just disappear. Yet, published reconnaissance data does not
show
> > any sort of incineration facility in Iraq (Big Footprint - Hard To
Hide).
> > There are no records of the disposal operation. There are no witnesses
to
> > the disposal operation, which had to require many months, if not years
to
> > accomplish. Yet, we haven't been able to find significant quantities of
WMD
> > in Iraq.
> >
> > So, which is the more reasonable conclusion? The entire world
intelligence
> > community was wrong about Iraq's WMD program for over 10 years. Or, the
> > WMD's were either hidden somewhere in the vast deserts of Iraq &/or
smuggled
> > over the relatively porous borders during the wartime chaos into places
like
> > Syria, Lebanon, and Afghanistan? I believe the WMD's are either in some
> > relatively insecure, unguarded hiding place or are already in the hands
of
> > terrorists. If I lived in Israel, I would be very very nervous. Mark
my
> > words, we have not seen the last of Iraq's WMD's.
> >
> > Why haven't we already seen these WMD's used? Well, of course it's hard
to
> > get into the head of someone like Osoma Bin Laden or Yassir Arafat.
But, I
> > would speculate these terrorist organizations do not want to tip their
hands
> > that they have WMD's until the US & British forces in the Middle East
are
> > drawn down. After all, the US & British militaries are the best
equipped to
> > detect and function in a biochemical hazard scenario. Plus, the Bush
> > administration would not hesitate to invade whatever Middle Eastern
country
> > played the WMD card with the forces currently in place in the Middle
East.
> >
> > So why Kerry over Bush? Well, I believe the nature of the game has
changed
> > in a way that Bush cannot cope with, given his bullish style and
apparent
> > lack of diplomatic skill. Bush did the world a tremendous service in
> > invading Afghanistan and Iraq. There was a fair chance to capture &
secure
> > the WMD's and the world is vastly better off without the Taliban and the
> > Hussein regimes. But, apparently the gamble did not pay off and the
WMD's
> > got away. Bush has used up all of his & the USA's political capital and
the
> > world's good will towards the USA to accomplish what's been done to
date.
> > But, the terrorist cancer has metacized and moved on to other countries.
> > The only way to deal with the threat now is with much more help and
> > cooperation from the rest of the world. This can't happen with Bush in
the
> > white house. With a change of administration, other countries can
> > gracefully save face & join in the hunt for the terrorists and WMD's.
> > Please note, this is not a slam against Bush. I think he did a hard
nasty
> > job that needed doing and the world owes him a tremendous dept of
gratitude
> > for his moral courage. It was a worthwhile gamble that did not
completely
> > work out according to plan. But, we live in a dangerous, scary period
of
> > history and it's time to move on to a workable strategy.
> >
> > Plus, I think the Bush administration is just completely wrong headed
> > regarding the management of the US economy. They don't seem to even
> > understand the issues, much less have workable solutions to propose.
> > Kerry/Edwards at least seem to understand the problems. Whether their
> > solutions will ever be implemented or work, given continued Republican
> > control of congress is another matter.
> >
> > That's why I'm voting for Kerry/Edwards in November.
> >
> > Now, can we please back down on the nasty political retoric? I perceive
> > Bush & Kerry to be a couple of the finest Americans alive today. The
issues
> > in this election are far too important and the stakes are much too high
to
> > have the election decided by petty arguing. Keep your eye on the ball
> > people!
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 10:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] What do you do with monsters?
> >
> >
> >> Chris
> >> If this is your 2 cents; I would ask for my money
> >> back!!!!!!!!
> >>
> >> Chris are you really so stupid that the fact that we
> >> were ready to go to war and had built up our military
> >> so superior to the Soviets; that this was not the
> >> reason we won. When we started the Star War
> >> initiative; that was the final straw; the soviets did
> >> not have the techonlogy or money brains to complete
> >> with us. We our spent them, out thought them and had
> >> the balls to back it up.
> >>
> >> I cannot believe you don't know what the Mission
> >> Accomplish ment to the military. We took over the
> >> country - Mission Accomplish. The police action will
> >> continue on until the terrorists are killed off but
> >> the good part of that is that the terrorists are in
> >> Iraq. Where our Military is and where they can handle
> >> it.
> >>
> >> Chris, come on, think a little, you kill the
> >> terrorists until they are no more, or until common
> >> police can handle the problem. Bending over and
> >> kissing the terrorists ass will do no good. Talking
> >> to them will do no good. Waiting on them to cave in
> >> does no good. Killing them solves the problem.
> >>
> >> Chris - I know that all you liberals want everthing to
> >> be happy, pretty, everybody to get alone; you CANNOT
> >> have freedom unless someone is willing to fight & die
> >> for it so that this country can keep FREEDOM. I know
> >> it tough to think this way; you are social, liberal
> >> type thinkers. But give me a break, This Bullshit is
> >> to stupid. The only reason this country is Free - is
> >> because of all the wars we have fought and the fact
> >> that we have a miltary ready to go to war at a second
> >> notice. This is stupid bullshit. Can all you
> >> liberals not think a little bit.
> >>
> >> Stan - why are you pushing your liberal thinking out
> >> on this LIST. You are old enough to know better. You
> >> should be ashame of yourself.
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- Chris Geankoplis <napoli68 at charter.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> My 2 cents:
> >>> A couple of questions Steve. We won
> >>> the cold war by bombing
> >>> the Soviet Union right? Don't give me the" we were
> >>> ready to fight or
> >>> deterence argument", remember you seem to think any
> >>> action however ill
> >>> thought out is better than thoughtful engagement.
> >>>
> >>> Good point "Lobbing bombs does no good untill the
> >>> country falls. Any
> >>> country in paticular? Or just one that is
> >>> convienient. Oh, that's right we
> >>> did that to Iraq and they fell. Mission
> >>> accomplished! And look at all the
> >>> terrorist who decided to find another job. (many are
> >>> pushing up daisies
> >>> right now, but we have their 13 cousins standing in
> >>> the dead guys place).
> >>> When one of our kids are killed do you want to give
> >>> it up? No. When 1000
> >>> of our kids get killed I don't hear you saying that
> >>> it is time to change
> >>> course. Well what in hell do you think the Islamic
> >>> terrorists say when we
> >>> kill a mess of them? "Oh lets give up because we
> >>> are cowards and not
> >>> commited". There will be no military victory, it
> >>> must be played out on a
> >>> much broader field. Why do so many people think
> >>> only we will stay the
> >>> course and not be detered by the death of of our
> >>> troops, but those camel
> >>> jockeys will shurly cave in any day?
> >>> Chris G.
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> >>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>> Date: Friday, September 03, 2004 1:13 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] What do you do with
> >>> monsters?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Excellent Wally, I will add this one to the list of
> >>>> liberal cowards!!!!!!!!!
> >>>> Steve
> >>>>
> >>>> PS - When everyone quits fighting; then no one will
> >>> be
> >>>> free. Freedom is NOT free. Someone has to fight
> >>> for
> >>>> it. Remember this when you go to vote. You can't
> >>>> count on a liberal to fight for you. See
> >>>> below!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >>>>
> >>>> --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Steve,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am not going to get dragged into another round
> >>> of
> >>>>> politcal emails but
> >>>>> ...... are you saying if one is held up a gun
> >>> point
> >>>>> you advice is to fight
> >>>>> back? Are you serious?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Even if you are packing heat most of us are not
> >>> real
> >>>>> good on the quick draw.
> >>>>> I don't carry anything in my wallet that is worth
> >>>>> getting shot over. Do you?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You have posted many emails that show you have a
> >>>>> hard time destinguishing
> >>>>> between bravery and common sense. I will just add
> >>>>> this one to the list.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yeah I know, you will tell me that I am just a
> >>> weak
> >>>>> liberal blah blah blah
> >>>>> ......
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hey I am out of here! Spending tonight on the
> >>> boat,
> >>>>> racing in the morning,
> >>>>> seafood boil and keg part in the evening! I hope
> >>>>> everyone has a great
> >>>>> weekend!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wally
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wally
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> >>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>> To: stan <stan at rhodes22.com>,The Rhodes 22 mail
> >>>>> list
> >>>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] What do you do with
> >>>>> monsters?
> >>>>>> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:10:44 -0700 (PDT)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Stan
> >>>>>> I just don't understand why so many of you all
> >>>>> worry
> >>>>>> so much about our image overseas. When push
> >>> comes
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>> shove; This country is the one that the plantet
> >>>>> turns
> >>>>>> to to fix the problem. The French can win
> >>>>> anything.
> >>>>>> They don't spend enough on weapons. Germany has
> >>>>> had
> >>>>>> the crap kick out of it twice last century and
> >>>>> doesn't
> >>>>>> have what it takes to do anything. Beside, as
> >>> the
> >>>>>> Democrates say; the USA still Occupies Germany.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Peace can only remain if a country is willing to
> >>>>> fight
> >>>>>> for it. We have to fight and take the fight to
> >>>>> them.
> >>>>>> Otherwise, they will bring the fight to us.
> >>> LIke I
> >>>>>> have said before, you can thank Clinton for the
> >>>>> 3,000
> >>>>>> deaths. When the terrorists started hammering
> >>> us;
> >>>>> we
> >>>>>> should have fought back. Lobbing bombs does no
> >>>>> good
> >>>>>> unless it's continueous untill the country
> >>> falls.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gore would not have retaliated after 911. Why
> >>>>> anyone
> >>>>>> would think he would is beond me. After all,
> >>> what
> >>>>> did
> >>>>>> Clinton do. Gore would have followed Clinton
> >>> lead.
> >>>>>> Kerry would make a lousy President. He has no
> >>>>>> balls!!!!!!!!!!! Bottom line. You can't have a
> >>>>>> President like Kerry in time of war that worries
> >>>>> about
> >>>>>> making people mad.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Terrorism is not climing. We are killing the
> >>> hell
> >>>>> out
> >>>>>> of them. Last I heard, our kill ratio is like
> >>> way
> >>>>>> over 20 to 1. Sometimes we kill hundreds of
> >>> them &
> >>>>>> maybe only lose 1 of ours. That great for a
> >>> war.
> >>>>> You
> >>>>>> can't ask for better ratio than that.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Just so everyone know, the only way to make
> >>>>> terrorists
> >>>>>> act right is kill them. They act just find when
> >>>>> thier
> >>>>>> dead. And we don't have to rebuild anything,
> >>> what
> >>>>> we
> >>>>>> are doing in Agfan & Iraq is more than enough.
> >>> We
> >>>>>> will help them alone and eventually it will get
> >>>>>> rebuilt. And it don't hurt to let them rebuilt
> >>> it
> >>>>>> themselves. Nothing says we have to do it all
> >>> for
> >>>>>> them.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Also, the biggest thing that helping in the war
> >>> on
> >>>>>> terrorism; is the fact that we have a BIG
> >>> miltary
> >>>>>> present over in the middle east. Fully ready to
> >>>>> beat
> >>>>>> the crap out of any country.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Anyway, this is a waist of my time but I don't
> >>> want
> >>>>>> this list to be totally without at least one
> >>>>> senable
> >>>>>> view on how the world works. If you are ever
> >>> held
> >>>>> up
> >>>>>> and someone has a gun in your face, do you
> >>> coward
> >>>>> down
> >>>>>> or fight back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Life is not worst
> >>>>> living
> >>>>>> as a coward.
> >>>>>> Steve
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --- stan <stan at rhodes22.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> love politics
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My grandkids visited the twin towers a day
> >>>>> before
> >>>>>>> they collapsed
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Nonetheless, this should not be a one issue
> >>>>> election
> >>>>>>> nor is there any proof
> >>>>>>> that no one else could have done a better job
> >>>>>>> fighting terrorism after the
> >>>>>>> act, than Bush. For instance, if you would
> >>> have
> >>>>>>> made me dictator I would
> >>>>>>> have used all that money to finish what we
> >>>>> started
> >>>>>>> in Afghanistan and turned
> >>>>>>> that into a model country to soften the "Ugly
> >>>>>>> American" image. I won't
> >>>>>>> argue the amount but will argue the
> >>> direction:
> >>>>> Not
> >>>>>>> following the usual
> >>>>>>> American premature bailout policy and instead
> >>>>>>> properly implementing our
> >>>>>>> stated goals for Afghanistan, would have cut
> >>> the
> >>>>>>> rate of terrorists
> >>>>>>> recruitment - now climbing and so increasing
> >>> our
> >>>>>>> need to fight terrorism
> >>>>>>> more and more.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Like so many religions, acting like we are
> >>> the
> >>>>> only
> >>>>>>> ones with the right
> >>>>>>> answer is a sign of the planet's immaturity.
> >>> If
> >>>>> we
> >>>>>>> are lucky, we might live
> >>>>>>> to grow up. But I doubt it - unless you get
> >>> to
> >>>>> work
> >>>>>>> on those placards:
> >>>>>>> Spitzer for Dictator, He is the only one with
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>> right answers.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (that's the problem with dictators - they
> >>>>> get
> >>>>>>> carried away - anyone got
> >>>>>>> a better answer - or at least, anyone for
> >>>>> tennis?
> >>>>>>> One of the richest
> >>>>>>> prospects I ever met said to me, "It is too
> >>>>> late,
> >>>>>>> enjoy yourself.").
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> stan/gbi
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Gardner, Douglas (LNG-DAY)"
> >>>>>>> <douglas.gardner at lexisnexis.com>
> >>>>>>> To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> >>>>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 10:02 AM
> >>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] What do you do with
> >>>>>>> monsters?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> While we're so focused on Bush attacking
> >>>>> Kerry's
> >>>>>>> service in vietnam, and
> >>>>>>>> Kerry attacking Bush & Cheney's avoidance
> >>> of
> >>>>>>> service in vietnam, I'd like
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> point to Russia for a second:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3624024.stm
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> and ask a question: What do you do with
> >>> people
> >>>>> who
> >>>>>>> believe killing
> >>>>>>>> children
> >>>>>>>> is a good way to get sympathy for their
> >>> cause?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'll leave my comments at the question.
> >>>>> Because
> >>>>>>> right now, my own
> >>>>>>>> thoughts
> >>>>>>>> on this matter are simply too ugly to write
> >>>>> down,
> >>>>>>> and certainly too ugly
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> broadcast in public.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> After my anger subsides a bit, I might
> >>> return
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> my beliefs in the rights
> >>>>>>>> afforded to people in our Constitution and
> >>> the
> >>>>>>> Bill of Rights, the
> >>>>>>>> importance of due process, and my beliefs
> >>> that
> >>>>> you
> >>>>>>> must not punish a
> >>>>>>>> person
> >>>>>>>> for the offenses of another.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> For now, I'll let my anger seethe and
> >>> wonder
> >>>>> what
> >>>>>>> kind of pathological
> >>>>>>>> society or religion could allow these kinds
> >>> of
> >>>>>>> acts to go unpunished.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --Doug
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> PS: lest anyone be confused... no, I do not
> >>>>> intend
> >>>>>>> this message to imply I
> >>>>>>>> support Bush. Please see my references to
> >>> the
> >>>>>>> constitution and bill of
> >>>>>>>> rights before you infer who I support for
> >>>>>>> president. My preferred
> >>>>>>>> candidate
> >>>>>>>> isn't running. You cannot defeat hate and
> >>>>>>> injustice with more hate and
> >>>>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>> injustice. I'll speak no more on that
> >>> subject
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>>> this forum.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
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> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
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