[Rhodes22-list] Mary Lou's Lee helm

[Mary Lou Troy]

Slim,
We've had the problem for as long as we've had the boat. It's been better 
or worse depending on how well we set the boat up in the Spring but it's 
only this year that we've realized that the lee helm / port, weather helm 
starboard issue means that the boat is consistently wanting to turn 
right.  This spring when we tuned the rig we used our spare halyard to 
measure to the chainplates and verify that the mast is straight. We just 
eyeballed it in the past.

One additional factor - for those who are not yet bored by the whole 
subject - the boat is faster by nearly a knot on starboard.

As far as we know nothing happened to our keel. It seems to drop straight 
without binding. If we have the boatyard haul it this year maybe we'll see 
if we can drop the board while it's in the slings and see if we see any 
problems.

Thanks again.

Mary Lou



At 03:04 PM 9/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Mary Lou,
>
>You said you checked the mast to see if it's straight.  Are you just
>eyeballing or have you taken precise measurements?  For a quick test, use
>your topping lift and bring it down to the chainplates of the upper shrouds
>and compare results port and starboard.
>
>Have you had Fretless out of the water lately and inspected the under side?
>Maybe something happened your keel.
>
>Slim
>
>On 9/13/04 5:43 PM, "Mary Lou Troy" <mltroy at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > At 02:06 PM 9/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >> Mary Lou, I think Bill's on to something here.  The more the boat heels,
> >> the greater
> >> the weather helm.  So maybe you're heeling more on a starboard tack.
> >
> > Slim, I don't think we heel more on one tack than the other but we'll check
> > it out next time we have a nice steady breeze. We certainly have more
> > weather helm when heeled way over but there is still a distinct difference
> > between port and starboard. The boat always wants to turn right.
> >
> >> Do you have an inclinometer so you can tell exactly how much heel you
> >> have?  If
> >> not, can you jury-rig some kind of little plumb bob--maybe a modified
> >> gimbled drink holder would do.
> >
> > No inclinometer but we'll pay attention.
> >
> >> In lighter air, when your 175% is all the way out, do you still have 
> the lee
> >> helm on port but not starboard?
> >
> > Yes although in light air it's more neutral helm on starboard and lee helm
> > on port.
> >
> > Thanks for trying to help us solve this.
> >
> > Mary Lou
> >
> >
> >> I'm probably reaching here, but wondering
> >> if, when the jib is reefed in, the roll of reefed sail cloth at the 
> luff has
> >> any effect.  It seems that this would be negligible if at all. Just 
> asking.
> >>
> >> Slim
> >>
> >> On 9/13/04 10:32 AM, "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> How much does your boat normally heel when you are sailing?
> >>>
> >>> Think of an analog clock face if you don't think in degrees.  If 12 
> is not
> >>> heeling at all, where does your mast point when you are heeling?  1? 2?
> >> 11:30?
> >>> 10:45?
> >>>
> >>> Bill Effros
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: Mary Lou Troy
> >>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >>> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 10:12 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mary Lou's Lee helm
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In light air we'll sit on the low side. In moderate to heavy winds 
> we're on
> >>> the high side. Last time we were out playing with the helm in light to
> >>> moderate winds on our problematic port tack, I sat on the port side 
> of the
> >>> cabin top. It seemed to make a bit of difference. One of the problems we
> >>> have in playing with this issue is the variability of winds, current and
> >>> chop on the Chesapeake in short spaces of time.
> >>>
> >>> Mary Lou
> >>>
> >>> At 09:56 AM 9/13/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> >>>> Mary Lou,
> >>>>
> >>>> Where do you sit when you're sailing?
> >>>>
> >>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: Mary Lou Troy
> >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >>>> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:38 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mary Lou's Lee helm
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks again for everyone's comments.  I'd appreciate the collective 
> brain
> >>>> doing a bit more thinking about our lopsidedness.
> >>>>
> >>>> We did let our forestay out a notch at the beginning of the s
> >> eason.Keeping
> >>>> the water tank full helps as well. We now have neutral to a slight 
> weather
> >>>> helm on starboard. That's an improvement but we still have mostly 
> lee helm
> >>>> on port so our main concern is getting her balanced. All measurements
> >>>> indicate that the mast is straight and centered.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger may have a point about trim as Fretless tends to list slightly to
> >>>> starboard in the slip even with the heavy Honda 8 on the port side 
> of the
> >>>> stern (all that weight (80 lbs) back there could be a part of the 
> issue as
> >>>> well). There's usually seven gallons of gas under the port bench 
> seat and
> >>>> three one gallon jugs of water under the settee in the cabin as 
> well. The
> >>>> battery is under the v-berth to port next to the water tank which 
> overlaps
> >>>> the centerline but is slightly to port. I suppose that may not be
> >> enough to
> >>>> overcome all those beverages in the cooler. I think rebalancing is our
> >> next
> >>>> step - maybe we'll try moving the spare anchor and chain under the 
> settee.
> >>>> May need to find some lead weights or something.
> >>>>
> >>>> Mary Lou
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> At 07:57 AM 9/6/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> >>>>> Mary Lou,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How does Fretless sit on her lines when the boat is tied up to the 
> dock?
> >>>>> With no one on board, the boat should should be level on the
> >> waterline from
> >>>>> side-to-side and slightly down by the bow, maybe about an inch.  With a
> >>>>> couple of adults in the cockpit, the boat should sit level on the
> >> waterline
> >>>>> in terms of fore/aft trim.  Before we can say whether or not 
> Fretless is
> >>>>> truely right wing, you will need to shift ballast around until you
> >> achieve
> >>>>> the above static trim condition.  If the boat still wants to turn right
> >>>>> after these adjustments; then, you definitely have a problem.  I 
> defer to
> >>>>> Stan as far as likely causes in this case.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "David Walker" <david.walker5 at comcast.net>
> >>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 7:06 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mary Lou's Lee helm
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Mary Lou,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There are probably many ways to balance a Rhodes.  At around 15 
> knots I
> >>>>> find
> >>>>>> that combination of about 120% genoa and the IMF reefed to just
> >>>> exposing a
> >>>>>> sliver of the R22 emblem balances the boat very well with respect to
> >> helm
> >>>>>> and heeling, especially singled handed.  I was out yesterday in this
> >>>>>> condition and handily beat a Catalina 22 under its full sail with 4
> >> crew.
> >>>>>> They were having trouble keeping the boat on its lines with the sails
> >>>>>> properly trimmed.  In general, I find that less sail, properly
> >> trimmed is
> >>>>>> better than more sailed trimmed to spill wind.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  My Rhodes also seems to sail better with more forward sail area than
> >>>> aft.
> >>>>>> I most assuredly looks funny that way, but the helm is neutral as
> >> long as
> >>>>>> the heel is moderate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dave W
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Steve Alm" <salm at mn.rr.com>
> >>>>>> To: "Rhodes" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 5:14 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Mary Lou's Lee helm
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Mary Lou,
> >>>>>>> Yes, I said what Stan said I said.  I raked the mast back by 
> extending
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>> forestay.  It was about 2" or more--sorry I can't be more
> >>>> precise.  That
> >>>>>>> brings the Center of Effros  8-)  aft and yields more weather
> >>>> helm.  But
> >>>>>>> that alone wasn't enough.  I started experimenting with the depth 
> of my
> >>>>>>> centerboard and discovered I could create more weather helm by
> >>>> lessening
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> depth of board.  I have the diamond board and it seems that 
> raising it
> >>>>>>> brings the center of lateral resistance forward, increasing weather
> >>>>> helm.
> >>>>>>> The amount of board I use varies with the wind speed, boat speed and
> >>>>> point
> >>>>>>> of sail.  I'm still learning so I can't be very specific about that
> >>>>> other
> >>>>>>> than to say that the faster the boat speed, the less board I 
> use.  But
> >>>>> if
> >>>>>>> I'm on a close reach, that probably makes me lose some of my 
> footing to
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> lee but I weigh that against the comfort of the helm.  I just play
> >>>>> around
> >>>>>>> with it until I'm happy.  Although I can't help you with the 
> republican
> >>>>>>> tendency of Fretless--that's a head-scratcher -- I'd suggest making
> >>>>>>> adjustments to your board and see if that helps.  Also, I 
> sometimes get
> >>>>>> lee
> >>>>>>> helm in light air which changes over to weather helm in the 
> gusts.  The
> >>>>>> more
> >>>>>>> the boat heels, the greater the weather helm. And lastly, I 
> rarely reef
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>>> my IMF main unless it's really blowing.  I'll reef in the 175% 
> genny to
> >>>>>>> about 90% before I reef the main.  That happens when the winds are in
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>> upper teens.  With winds much higher than that, I'm usually at 
> the dock
> >>>>>>> having a cocktail.  8-)  Speaking of which, isn't it five o'clock
> >>>>>> somewhere?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hope this helps,
> >>>>>>> Slim
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 9/5/04 1:48 PM, "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> a few thoughts if it is really a problem   Slim raked his mast 
> aft by
> >>>>>>>> increasing the jib stay about 2" he says.  the new main with a 
> little
> >>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>> sail area might help but that is a big investment.  If you are 
> handy,
> >>>>>> putting
> >>>>>>>> a small extra fin forward of the keel might tip the scale. Also, I
> >>>>> think
> >>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>> are on the right track about more weight forward.  I brought my
> >>>>> thinking
> >>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>> this up to the List on two occasions but drew a blanc response each
> >>>>>> time. I
> >>>>>>>> think more bow in the water is akin to moving the keel (center of
> >>>>>> effort)
> >>>>>>>> forward and easy to test by having a lot of guests sit up on the bow
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>> see
> >>>>>>>> what happens to the tiller helm.  Hiring crew to sit on the bow 
> might
> >>>>> be
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> patentable upgrade - let us know the test results.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> stan/gbi
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>> From: Mary Lou Troy
> >>>>>>>> To: stan
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 2:18 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: you are welcome and turning right (was Re: book)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Stan,
> >>>>>>>> You are very welcome for the book. I do not have 1,000 more ;-)
> >>>> If you
> >>>>>> do want
> >>>>>>>> additional copies you'll have to contact Stan Grayson about it. 
> He'll
> >>>>>> sell me
> >>>>>>>> additional copies for "personal use" at a 40% discount which is 
> close
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>> what
> >>>>>>>> you can get from Amazon. I'm pleased with the book (and hope you are
> >>>>>> too).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As for my cryptic note about Fretless being too right - We're not
> >>>>> going
> >>>>>>>> anywhere but Fred and I suspect you may have sold us a republican
> >>>>> boat.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As you know we have had lee helm issues over the years. Using your
> >>>>>> suggestions
> >>>>>>>> we have been able to produce a nice neutral to slight weather helm -
> >>>>> on
> >>>>>>>> starboard tack only. On port tack the adjustments have only
> >>>> produced a
> >>>>>>>> reduction in lee helm. After making sure the mast was centered
> >>>> and the
> >>>>>> rigging
> >>>>>>>> moderately snug it finally occurred to us that what the boat was
> >>>> doing
> >>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>> always wanting to turn right. Last time we had her out we seemed
> >>>> to be
> >>>>>> able to
> >>>>>>>> reduce this tendency slightly and remove a bit of the lee helm by
> >>>>>> putting my
> >>>>>>>> weight amidships on the port cabin top so it is possible that we are
> >>>>>> still
> >>>>>>>> dealing with a weight distribution issue. We'll continue to
> >>>>> investigate
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>> are wondering if you have any other suggestions for what we might
> >>>>> tinker
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>> to produce a more middle of the rhode boat.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Mary Lou
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> At 04:44 PM 8/29/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   MLT -
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   How nice of you to send the book - need 1,000 more.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   does a little too right mean we are loosing you? - hope not.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   stan/gbi
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
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> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
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> >>> __________________________________________________
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> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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>
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