[Rhodes22-list] Outboards

Thu Sep 23 09:14:34 EDT 2004

Roger
Base on the below; I would say the same about you. 
When you go out on the water and your motor tear up
and even you can't fix it.  Then preach the below.  
Steve

--- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:

> Bill,
> 
> My old Evinrude 6 hp 2-cycle outbaord got about 6
> nm/gal at 5 knots.  My
> present Honda 8 hp 4-cycle outboard gets about 10
> nm/gal at 5 knots.  Same
> boat, same lake, same conditions, just about 2X
> better mileage.  There's
> real world data, Bill.  What sort of mileage do you
> get?
> 
> The facts I cited in my FAQ were published in peer
> reviewed scientific
> journals & government agency reports by qualified
> researchers.  I expect you
> to adhere to the same standard of evidence.  The
> list will be waiting with
> baited breath for you to back up your claims with
> good science.  If it turns
> out that you can; then, I'll be the 1st to
> apologise.  Until then, you have
> nothing but a bunch of unsubstantiated claims & some
> charming anecdotal
> stories.
> 
> The trouble with the internet is that anyone can set
> themselves up as an
> "expert" and claim anything with no substance behind
> it.  In this case, you
> are spreading false information regarding 4-cycle
> reliability & the 2-cycle
> vs. 4-cycle emissions issues.  On this issue, you
> just simply WRONG!
> 
> You can wait until after the election or until the
> cows come home.  I'm
> betting you won't be able to back up your claims
> sir.
> 
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> 
> 
> > Roger,
> >
> > I don't have time for this right now, but I will
> get back to it after the
> election.  If I forget, I'm counting on you to bring
> it up again the next
> time I mention 2 cycle engines.
> >
> > Like many things in this world, this issue is not
> what it seems.
> Legislation was passed that benefits large
> corporations at the expense of
> everyone else without providing substantial benefits
> to the environment that
> couldn't be achieved at far lower cost.
> >
> > And yes, I can back that up with "good science".
> >
> > I'm with Ed on this one.  Many of the "facts" you
> have cited in the past
> come from research institutes funded by engine
> manufacturers.  The tested
> engines cannot be duplicated in the real world. 
> Your engine does not go
> twice as far on a gallon of gas than mine.
> >
> > I'll spend more time on this when I have it.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Roger Pihlaja
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 10:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> >
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > One defective engine from Nissan  has nothing to
> do with average emissions
> > from 4-cycle vs. 2-cycle engines.
> >
> > Bill, for every one of your amusing anecdotes
> about people having troubles
> > with their 4-cycle outboards, I can cite you four
> other stories about
> > 4-cycle owners that are happy with 2X better fuel
> economy, less noise, no
> > smoke, not having to mix oil with the gas, etc. 
> You know, I've talked
> with
> > mechanics at local marinas, did a search on the
> internet, looked in
> Consumer
> > Reports, looked in the Consumer Product Recall
> archieves.  I can't find
> any
> > hard evidence about the problems you keep harping
> about regarding 4-cycle
> > reliability.  In my FAQ which I sent to you, I
> cited the emission &
> > toxicology studies that led up to the current
> emssion regulations.  You
> > rejected it all as "glurge".  If the 4-cycle
> outboards were really having
> > the sorts of problems you claim on a widespread
> basis; then, shouldn't
> there
> > be
> > some hard data somewhere?  Well, now its your turn
> sir, I challenge you
> > to cite us some hard data on this issue - a
> service bulletin from one of
> the
> > outboard manufacturers, a consumer product safety
> commision report, a
> > reputable survey - something other than your own
> experience.
> >
> > By the way, even if your claims about having to
> mix additives with 4-cycle
> > fuel were true, which I dispute, the 4-cycle
> engine emission data shows it
> > emits about 1/10 the unburned hydrocarbons of a
> 2-cycle engine.  So, even
> if
> > these additives were required in 4-cycle fuel, the
> 4-cycle engine would
> > still do a much better job of incinerating them
> than 2-cycle engines do.
> >
> > Bill, it's time to put up or shut up.  I say you
> don't know what you are
> > talking about.  Show us the data to prove that you
> do.  Until you can
> > show us this data, I'm going to bring this issue
> up every time you say
> > anything about 2-cycle vs. 4-cycle engines.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> >
> >
> > > That's "abated breath" I hit the send key when
> aiming for the save key.
> > >
> > > Keep us posted on the Nissan.  I don't know if
> anyone else has a Nissan
> > 4-stroke.  I was considering them, also.  Is it
> quiet?
> > >
> > > Roger, not to go round on this again, but my
> consistent point has been
> > that Ron with his supposedly environmentally sound
> engine has just dumped
> > more oil into the environment in 2 hours than I
> have dumped into the
> > environment with my 2 stroke in 2 years.  The
> dealer reports this was not
> an
> > isolated case.  Many people on the list with
> 4-strokes are dumping oil
> into
> > their gas tanks to ensure proper lubrication of
> their engines.
> > >
> > > As everyone knows, I can go off on a right-wing
> screed on this issue,
> but
> > I am trying to restrain myself.
> > >
> > > I know everyone is trying to do the right thing.
>  Sometimes that impulse
> > leads to bad policy, bad laws, and bad decisions. 
> What does Ron do now?
> > They're not going to give him a new engine.  And
> maybe a new one would be
> > just as bad as the one he's got.
> > >
> > > What do I do now?  I was thinking of getting a
> 4-stroke, too, but I
> wanted
> > to see what happened with Ron.
> > >
> > > I WAS waiting with 'bated breath.
> > >
> > > Bill Effros
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Bill Effros
> > > To: Ronald Lipton ; The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> > >
> > >
> > > I believe it's a contraction for "abated breth"
> 'bated breath.
> > >
> > > Bill Effros
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ronald Lipton
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:09 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > For those of you waiting with baited beath (does
> this means worms
> > > hanging out of your mouth?).  I ended up buying
> the Nissan 6 four
> > > cycle.   I could not find a reasonably priced
> used 2 cycle long shaft.
> > > The Monroe Harbormaster was very accomodating
> ferrying me out
> > > to the boat and helping me remove the old engine
> and install the new
> > > one.
> > >
> > > The story does not yet have a happy ending ...
> the new Nissan
> > > is burning oil, having emptied it's resovoir
> after about 2 hours of
> > > running and with a thick cloud of smoke on
> startup.  I was told by
> > > the dealer that some of the engines "do that"
> until they are broken
> > > in - but I am sceptical.  Hopefully I can keep
> it running well
> > > enough to allow me to finish the season before
> it is serviced, but
> > > I still have the outboard blues.
> > >
> > > for Stan:
> > >
> > > Go IU, beat Purdue. ( It might happen someday)
> > >
> > > Ron
> > >
> __________________________________________________
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> > >
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> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> 
> 
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