[Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails

[Roger Pihlaja]

Steve,

That's what I was talking about when I said it would be difficult to find
two Rhodes 22's that were sufficiently alike except for their centerboards
to have a valid match race.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails


> Excellent, write up, Roger.
> One thing though; you would also take a hit on
> handicapp with any foresail greater than 155%.
> Steve
>
>
> --- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
>
> > Ed,
> >
> > The GBI factory claim regarding boats equipped with
> > the diamond board is
> > that they point somewhat better than the boats with
> > the older high aspect
> > ratio centerboard.  This claim may very well be true
> > because the diamond
> > board has more surface area than the old
> > centerboards.  If there were a
> > Rhodes 22 single design racing class; then, the
> > diamond board boats would be
> > handicapped according to some % of the ratio of the
> > surface areas of the two
> > different centerboards.  It would be interesting to
> > have a match race
> > between an old centerboard & new centerboard boat.
> > Although, it would be
> > difficult to find two Rhodes 22 that were
> > sufficiently similar in all the
> > other important factors like weight, IMF mainsail
> > vs. standard mainsail,
> > 150% vs. 175% genoa, etc.
> >
> > Perhaps I've misunderstood; but, it sounds like you
> > are using your forward
> > jib car tracks with your 175% genoa.  With your 175%
> > genoa, any jib car
> > position on the forward track with result in a genoa
> > sail shape with
> > insufficient twist for optimum performance.  The
> > correct jib car position
> > for a 175% genoa will be on the aft track in the
> > vicinity of the winch pads.
> > The below enclosed FAQ discusses how to achieve the
> > best jib car position:
> >
> > JIB CAR TUNING PROCEDURE:
> >
> > The basic method for determining the position for
> > the jib cars is to sight
> > up the jib sheet & continue the imaginary line past
> > the clew all the way to
> > the forestay. At the proper jib car position, this
> > imaginary line should
> > intersect the midpoint on the luff of the sail. As
> > the sail is reefed, the
> > jib car position will move forward. Shift to the
> > forward track when the rear
> > track won't give you the proper geometry, usually
> > with a foresail smaller
> > than about 100%.
> >
> > The above procedure will give you an approximate jib
> > car position, which can
> > then be fine tuned thru the use of tell tales. The
> > following procedure can
> > be used for fine tuning the jib on points of sail
> > from close hauled to a
> > beam reach. On any point of sail more downwind than
> > a beam reach, you should
> > just use the above basic procedure since the mode of
> > operation of the sail
> > changes from behaving like a wing to behaving more
> > like a parachute.
> >
> > You should have 3 tell tales about 12" back from the
> > luff & equally spaced
> > down the luff of the sail. Usually, tell tales are
> > installed with a small
> > window so the sail trimmer can see the tell tale on
> > both sides of the sail
> > without having to duck their head under the sail.
> > The sail is properly
> > trimmed when the windward & leeward tell tales at
> > all 3 positions are
> > streaming backwards. The proper jib car position is
> > determined by either the
> > jib trimmer pulling in slightly on the jib sheet or
> > the helmsman pinching up
> > slightly into the wind while watching the behavior
> > of the tell tales. (This
> > test is done slowly) If the top tell tales flutter
> > before the bottom; then,
> > the sail shape is twisted too much. You should move
> > the jib car position
> > forward a few inches. This will alter the geometry
> > of the jib sheet to cause
> > the line to pull down more on the clew of the sail,
> > increase leech tension,
> > & reduce twist. If the bottom tell tales flutter
> > 1st; then, the sail needs
> > more twist & the jib car position should be moved
> > aft a couple of inches.
> > Note that this effect is subtle & moving the jib car
> > position a few inches
> > one way or the other is all that is required.
> >
> > Peter, you should also remember to start your sail
> > trimming with the
> > headsail, get it close & then trim the mainsail. The
> > two sails will interact
> > & affect each other's trim settings. So, you have to
> > keep trimming 1st one &
> > then the other making fine adjustments. Most
> > cruising sailers call the sail
> > trim good enough after about one repetition of this
> > procedure unless sailing
> > conditions suddenly change drastically.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > 07 Jul 2001
> >
> >
> >
> > Also with your 175% genoa, you may find that you
> > make better progress to
> > windward if you sheet the headsail such that it is
> > slightly off the spreader
> > tip.  The 175% genoa is a very large headsail & it
> > tends to backwind the
> > mainsail if sheeted in too tightly.  This is
> > especially a problem in the
> > light air that the 175% genoa is normally used in.
> > You can detect
> > backwinding of your mainsail by watching the
> > behavior of the leech telltales
> > on your mainsail.  They should normally be streaming
> > aft when everything
> > else is trimmed properly.  If the mainsail leech
> > telltales are fluttering or
> > drooping when everything else is apparently trimmed
> > properly; then, try
> > letting off the genoa sheet until the mainsail leech
> > telltales just stop
> > drooping.  Optimise your jib car position for that
> > genoa sheet setting & now
> > you're beating to weather efficiently!
> >
> > I absolutely love my high tech bi-radial composite
> > sailcloth genoa & fully
> > battened roachy mainsail.  The acceleration in
> > response to a puff of wind
> > just sets you back into the seat & is completely
> > additive!  Besides, when
> > the sun is behind it & you can see the biradial
> > panel design & construction
> > in silouette, it just looks totally cool!
> >
> > 100 - 110 degree tacking angles are nothing to brag
> > about.  On the other
> > hand, a 70 degree tacking angle is approaching the
> > performance of an
> > America's Cup boat & is, therefore, a little hard to
> > believe for a
> > trailerable cruising boat with dacron sails.
> > Tacking angles in the 80 - 90
> > degree range are what's reasonable for our Rhodes
> > 22's with OEM sails.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> >
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "ed kroposki" <ekroposki at charter.net>
> > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:21 AM
> > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Fred:
> > >
> > > Are you going to replace the sacrificial canvass
> > yourself or have a
> > > loft or Sailcare fix it?  Or are you going buy a
> > new sail?
> > > That being said, my question that you never
> > answered was do you have
> > > a centerboard or diamond board.  But I think that
> > you have answered the
> > > question by telling us the condition of your
> > Genny.  If you had a diamond
> > > board, your sails should be newer and therefore
> > not deteriorated.  So may
> > I
> > > conclude that you have a centerboard?
> > > Does your boat have inside sheeting tracks,
> > fairleads or cleats on
> > > the outside cabin wall?  Since I have the inside
> > tracks, I can adjust the
> > > cars which have blocks to maintain leech tension
> > on the 175.  I have
> > > concluded that with the tracks, I can maintain
> > better sail shape by
> > > adjusting the cars to keep the leech tight and
> > well angled when sheeting
> > > inside.
> > > Even with the sails outside, maybe the condition
> > of the sails is a
> > > big factor in your pointing.  The tighter I get my
> > Genny, the better I
> > > point, even at 175.  I have not figured out how to
> > get the foot as tight
> > as
> > > the leech.  If I use a balance approach, the leech
> > is not tight enough.  I
> > > can see why those who race get the 'new' high tech
> > sails.
> > >
> > > Ed K
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf Of
> > > SVGravityLeak at aol.com
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:02 PM
> > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's pointing dog
> > question
> > >
> > > Ed,
> > >
> > > I thought I answered your question and I don't
> > recall asking one.  Since
> > we
> > > so misunderstand each other, we ought to have a
> > political discussion.
> > >
> > > Anyway, today was God's late summer gift to
> > boaters on Lake Erie--perfect
> > > temperature and no bugs, perfect wind and no
> > waves.  Yet even while I was
> > so
> > >
> > > enraptured by His presence, I though of you, Ed.
> > Rather, I was thinking of
> > > your
> > > question, or answer, or whatever.
> > >
> > > Coming back to my home light, I was beating at
> > about 4.5 knots.  The boat
> > > was
> > > pinching as hard as I could get her by tightening
> > the back stays as much
> > as
> > > I
> > > could and pulling the 175% genny to the end of the
> > track.  The Autohelm
> > was
> > > locked to keep the tiller at midship, allowing the
> > R22 to seek the highest
> > > point into the wind.  The GPS showed her track
> > varied 3-5 deg, which would
> > > represent the variation in wind direction.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, I didn't have the weight on board
> > to keep the boat sailing
> > on
> > >
> > > her lines because I was single handing and getting
> > too old to sit on the
> > > rail
> > > comfortably.  So heel was between 10 and 20 deg.
> > Another problem is that
> > > the
> > > leech edge of the canvas sun protection strip for
> > my genny has rotted
> > > allowing
> > > the tension line to fly free.  (Got to wait for
> > winter to fix that since I
> > > have the GBI furler.)
> > >
> > > In clear air, I tacked three times through 100 to
> > 110 degrees.  That means
> > I
> > >
> > > was sailing between 50 and 55 degrees off the
> > wind.  With more ballast and
> > a
> > >
> > > not-ratty head sail, I probably would have been
> > closer to the theoretical
> > 45
> > >
> > > deg.
> > >
> > > Does that answer your question?  (Oops, maybe
> > we're back in the
> > > question-question loop again.)
> > >
> > > Fred
> > >
> > > In a message dated 9/22/04 8:22:04 PM Eastern
> > Daylight Time,
> > > ekroposki at charter.net writes:
> > >
> > > > Fred:
> > > >   Thank you for still not answering my question
> > while asking another.
> > > >
> > > >   Would it have been a question to which you do
> > not know the answer?
> > > >
> > > >   Nevertheless, I will answer your question and
> > that is I do not know
> > > > the real answer to that question.  I just look
> > at who has trouble
> > pointing
> > > > to the wind.  By asking the question, from those
> > willing to respond, I
> > get
> > > > more information on which to make an opinion.  I
> > also learn ways to
> > better
> > > > point to the wind.
> > > >   I am not an experienced sailor.  I am a
> > Saturday afternoon sailor
> > > > who uses the wind to take him anywhere and
> > nowhere in particular.
> > > >   That being said, if the wind is fresh, I
> > believe that if scientific
> > > > instruments were used, when I set up for the
> > wind, I can point less the
> > 45
> > > > degrees mentioned on this list recently.  In
> > fact, when I try, I think
> > > that
> > > > I can get closer to 35 degrees.
> > > >   However, that is just a wild-eyed guess based
> > on my Windex.  Last
> > > > Saturday with the wind gusting to knock down
> > power, I could not get
> > that,
> > > > but at that point the Genny was outside at about
> > 100% and I was on final
> > > > approach to the Marina.
> > > >   And, if you read the post on this list you
> > will learn how to push
> > > > the envelope.
> > > >   Now tell us, does your dog point?
> > > >
> > > > Ed K
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf Of
> > > > SVGravityLeak at aol.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:46 AM
> > > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's pointing
> > > >
> > > > Ed,
> > > >
> > > > I thought the diamond board was better because
> > of the more forward
> > weight
> > > > distribution.
> > > >
> > > > Fred
> > > >
> > > > In a message dated 9/21/04 5:53:51 PM Eastern
> > Daylight Time,
> > > > ekroposki at charter.net writes:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list]Fred's Hunter IMF
> > > > >
> > > > >Fred:
> > > > >
> > > > >Is it a secret?  Because I think that R22's
> > with a centerboard like
> > mine
> > > > >point better than those with a diamond board.
> > But so far this just a
> > > > guess
> > > > >or opinion.  Now answer the question, pretty
> > please.
> > > > >
> > > > >Ed K
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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