[Rhodes22-list] Was Main Sail Speed, now Jib Sheets Changes

Ronald Lipton rlipton at earthlink.net
Wed Aug 24 20:43:13 EDT 2005


Jay,

   I would rather keep the two sets of sheets.  I occasionally have sheets 
caught in the
shrouds, but they can usually be jiggled free.  A foul-free shackle may be 
hard to find.
I am more bothered by the occasional fouling of the jib sheet on the 
foredeck cleat,
which is a real pain if I am singlehanding in higher winds. But I am not 
bothered enough
to actually fix the problem.

Ron
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jay Friedland" <jsail1 at verizon.net>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>; "David Walker" 
<dwalker at alum.mit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:00 PM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Was Main Sail Speed, now Jib Sheets Changes


> Ron, and other UPS users-
> I was thinking about universal jib sheets with snap shackles for quick 
> changes. I was hoping to use this for two purposes- 1) bringing jib sheets 
> inboard as I reef (I have the current 3 position sheeting setup) and 2) 
> UPS sail change using the same set of sheets. Another advantage if I had 
> the right hardware would be to overcome the current "fold-over" knot at 
> the clew catching the stays on tacking (sometimes due to sloppiness, 
> sometimes even with a precision tack). With the right snap shackle or 
> connector to the clew, I could have it spliced into a new set of jib 
> sheets, coming down from 7/16" to 3/8".
>
> Any hardware suggestions to replace the common knot? There are sister 
> clips (twist and lock) and snap shackles with a finger release rather than 
> the pull pin which I think will get caught.
> Thanks, Jay
>
>
> On Aug 22, 2005, at 10:55 AM, David Walker wrote:
>
>> Ron,
>>
>> Thanks for the info.  I've been looking at the UPS or equivalent, also 
>> the
>> vertical battens. Does that increase main area much?
>>
>> Also, changing headsails in the CDI furler is highly overated especially 
>> in
>> high winds.  The internal halyard ( at least mine) has a lot of friction
>> making raising the sail and making off the halyard and tack a fun 
>> procedure
>> even on the hard let alone on the water.
>>
>> Dave
>> David Walker
>> David Walker Photography
>> davidwalkerphotography.com
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ronald Lipton" <rlipton at earthlink.net>
>> To: "David Walker" <dwalker at alum.mit.edu>; "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 10:52 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Main Sail Speed
>>
>>
>>> David,
>>>
>>>    Your comments are pretty much on the mark.  The 175 does have some
>>> failings, especially in extreme (high or low) winds.  You can do several
>>> things that will help (and cost money)
>>> - With the CDI furler you can switch to a smaller jib in high winds.  I
>> have
>>> the GB furler so my only choice is to furl and go to the inboard tracks.
>>> - Several boats have the UPS sail, which is made of light cloth, can be
>>> furled,
>>> and is carried behind the 175.  I have only used it a few times so far,
>> but
>>> it is
>>> the clear choice in light winds.
>>> - I replaced my old IMF main with a slightly hurricane damaged vertical
>>> batten sail
>>>  I bought. I find that the boat is easier to balance with this sail and
>> the
>>> main has
>>> increased drive.  It makes a real difference.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "David Walker" <david.walker5 at comcast.net>
>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 9:33 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Main Sail Speed
>>>
>>>
>>>> Phyllis,
>>>>
>>>> I've been watching these emails go by but have not had the time to
>>>> respond.
>>>> I sailed my recycled Rhodes for 2 seasons with a traditional main and a
>>>> 135
>>>> genoa, and then traded with stan for an IMF with 175 on a CDI furler.
>>>> (BTW - my best research at the time - Stan wasn't too much help as the
>>>> standard masts are old- was that if you switch masts will need to
>> replace
>>>> the standing rigging as the masts are not the same height)
>>>>
>>>> My experience is that the standard main and 135 sailed a little faster
>> and
>>>> pointed higher.  With the IMF rig most of the power comes from the big
>>>> genoa
>>>> and the main is basically balancing the sail plan as in the mizzen of a
>>>> ketch or yawl.  I reef the genoa first then reduce the main to keep
>>>> balance.
>>>> My experience is the boat will not sail well at all with just the main
>> out
>>>> and will not tack.
>>>>
>>>> There are three problems to this:  1) the big genoa does not sheet in
>>>> close
>>>> enough to point that well.  It is worse when reefed.  2) the big genoa
>> is
>>>> made of relatively heavy material and does not perform well in light
>> wind
>>>> aft of the beam due to it weight.  3)  When sailing in high winds in a
>>>> small
>>>> keel boat, it is usual to ease the mainsheet in gusts to keep the hull
>> on
>>>> its lines.  With the already small main reefed, you don't have much to
>>>> dump
>>>> and you need to keep a fair amount of jib out for speed.
>>>>
>>>> Is all this bad? No just different.  Would I go back to a standard 
>>>> main?
>>>> No.  In fact the IMF has been keeping me from seriously looking for a
>> boat
>>>> in the 28-30' range.  For my sailing, the absolute ease of sail 
>>>> handling
>>>> makes up for a few more tacks going up wind, and when the J24's pass me
>> I
>>>> take solace that when they are furling and covering mains and bagging
>>>> jibs,
>>>> I'll be relaxing in the cockpit or already on the lauch heading for a
>>>> restaurant.
>>>> David Walker
>>>> S/V Windspept
>>>> Marblehead  MA
>>>>
>>>> David Walker Photography
>>>> davidwalkerphotography.com
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "P&M Beals" <beals at rci.rutgers.edu>
>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 8:50 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Main Sail Speed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> HI.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not speed so much that I care about it's getting so I feel my
>> vessel
>>>>> responds well in different conditions.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I am making progress...I read your post, Bill, from 3/04 with
>>>> Craig
>>>>> Lowe's tip to help me locate it, on tacking, and tacking when sailing
>> in
>>>>> stronger winds...
>>>>>
>>>>> I also hope to still connect with Jay Friedland for a Sept. sail on a
>>>>> good
>>>>> strong windy day... without my 10 yr old daughter worried about too
>> much
>>>>> wind, too much heeling, and see if he has any pointers for us...
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe a good part of my issue has to do with adjusting my sailing
>>>>> technique to this boat...so I am not faulting the boat...or the IMF 
>>>>> for
>>>> that
>>>>> matter...I grew up sailing a vessel that would come about on a
>> dime...as
>>>> the
>>>>> saying goes...it sailed so close to the wind that other captains on
>> other
>>>>> sailboats could not believe it, and yes, it was fast, very fast, and 
>>>>> it
>>>>> could sail with only a breath of wind...a gaff rigged 36 footer...no
>>>> motor.
>>>>>
>>>>> but hey, that was that boat, and now I am enjoying our R-22... I am
>>>>> interested  to just compare sailing with the traditional mainsail vs.
>> the
>>>>> IMF....that is why the fact that  I have an R-22 traditional mainsail
>>>>> neighbor now at my anchorage, but he happens to be kind of a solitary
>>>> soul,
>>>>> and did not extend an offer to have me sail on his boat, is a little
>>>>> disappointing...
>>>>>
>>>>> The thought has come to me, that with my boat came a slightly worn
>>>>> traditional mainsail...I could buy from Stan a mast for the 
>>>>> traditional
>>>>> main, keep the IMF...and do some sailing with the traditional
>>>> mainsail...I'm
>>>>> not convinced I should give up the IMF too quickly  here...
>>>>>
>>>>> but buying a mast  probably is not a cheap item either...I am more
>>>>> interested in getting the motor lift to help me get our 9.9  yamaha 4
>>>> stroke
>>>>> easily out of the water...
>>>>>
>>>>> Phyllis
>>>>> Whisper
>>>>> Keyport
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:03:24 -0400
>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Main Sail Speed
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phyllis,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I still don't know if boats sail measurably faster with traditional
>>>>>> sails than IMF, but I've been working with my IMF to see how fast it
>>>>>> will sail.  Generally I get most of the drive out of the head sail,
>> and
>>>>>> use the main sail primarily to keep the boat balanced.  Recently I've
>>>>>> been sailing with a full main sail and storm sail sized jib to try to
>>>>>> determine the maximum speed I can get out of main sail alone.  To
>> date
>>>>>> the best I have done is 4.2 kts sustained on main sail alone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is the best speed you can get out of just your main sail?  What
>> is
>>>>>> the best speed people with traditional main sails can get out of
>> their
>>>>>> main sails alone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the traditional people can get significantly higher boat speeds
>> out
>>>>>> of just their main sails, I think that would answer some of your
>>>> questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rummy, are you in this game?  Rummy has a battened IMF.  Does he get
>>>>>> more boat speed out of his main sail than non-battened IMF people?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not set my 4.2 kts. as the gold standard, just as the starting
>>>>>> point.  I would expect to be able to get 5 kts. under the right
>>>>>> conditions, but I doubt that I could get anywhere near 6.25 under IMF
>>>>>> main sail alone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>
>>>>>> P&M Beals wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello.  I was just going through email and saw this note...
>>>>>>> sounds great.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> May I ask do you have a traditional mainsail or the IMF?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I bought a 1986 last summer with IMF, and I just feel that this boat
>>>> will
>>>>>>> sail even better with a traditional mainsail...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope you  can give me a reply.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Phyllis Beals
>>>>>>> Whisper
>>>>>>> Keyport, NJ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By the way, where on the Hudson do you sail?
>>>>>>> Haverstraw Bay?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I used to sail out of  Catskill Creek, Catskill on my father's gaff
>>>> rigged
>>>>>>> wooden sloop...this smaller fiberglass boat is a new experience for
>>>>>>> me,
>>>> but
>>>>>>> I am trying to hang in there with it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: fnuttersny at aol.com
>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:38:28 -0400
>>>>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] on ballanced boat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My 73 R22 is bare bones compared to most others on the list.  Two
>>>> batteries
>>>>>>>> located under the companion way and a 9.5 evinrud in the lazzarete
>>>> engine
>>>>>>>> well pretty much makes up my boat.  I basically set her up as a
>> very
>>>>>>>> comfortable day sailer. In this configuration the boat is slightly
>>>> stern
>>>>>>>> heavy.  I recently replaced the centerboard with a custom composit
>>>> airfoil
>>>>>>>> shaped board with no leading and trailing(the board has the same
>>>>>>>> width
>>>> over
>>>>>>>> its length) edge taper and 25# of bronze makingup the tip of the
>>>> board -the
>>>>>>>> board dropes quickly-. I have a new rolly-tasker main and a new
>> 150%
>>>> head
>>>>>>>> sail
>>>>>>>> both hanked on..  I have to say that the boat performs fantastic.
>> In
>>>> 15 to
>>>>>>>> 20
>>>>>>>> mph wind and full sails there is almost no pressure on the tiller.
>>>> The boat
>>>>>>>> seams to dig her nose slightly down and the stern comes up.  I can
>>>>>>>> set
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> rudder with the tiller tamer and have held my coarse for up to 45
>>>>>>>> min.
>>>> As
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> wind picks up I usually stand on the rail up by the mast and hang
>> on
>>>> to  the
>>>>>>>> sta
>>>>>>>> ys and just look down as the boat sails herself falling of slightly
>>>> then
>>>>>>>> rounding up a little back an forth never more than a vew degrees
>>>> either way.
>>>>>>>> This is the first time I have sailed the boat with realy good sails
>>>> and
>>>>>>>> centerboard  etc. and the difference is everything I hoped it would
>>>> be.  I
>>>>>>>> believe this is a perfect boat for inland waters in my case the
>>>>>>>> Hudson
>>>>>>>> river.
>>>>>>>> I had four adults on board recently in a steady 25 mph wind. We sat
>>>> four in
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> row and the boat sailed at maybe 5deg.  We flew across the river
>>>> against a
>>>>>>>> flood tide still very little pressure on the rudder and very very
>>>> close to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> wind.  My passengers thought I was brilliant the way I made the
>> boat
>>>> go
>>>>>>>> exactly were I wanted it to go and in quick time .  Thanks to a
>> great
>>>> design
>>>>>>>> and a vew up grades.
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list 



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