[Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2

Philip Esteban 3drecon at comcast.net
Sun Aug 28 11:01:39 EDT 2005 

Another philosophical question.  You own an automobile and the seats wear
out.  You price reupholstering and decide to do it yourself.  Do you owe the
car manufacturer a royalty?

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]On Behalf Of Chris Geankoplis
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 10:44 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2


Bill,
        Well thought out recap and questions.  I have a feeling there is no
black or white for a lot of the area you have covered.  It will, in the end,
boil down to a person's values and personal beliefs.  I can't speak for
others but if it is a unique "Stan design" than Stan should get his due.
Sometimes you don't sell a product but rather a solution to a problem.
Often there is one problem and many soultions, and what is so true for this
boat is Stan's is often (but not always) the best.  I guess to quote Spike
Lee "do the right thing" which for each person may be quite different.
Chris G
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 6:31 PM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2


> Wally,
>
> This entire extended thread works off Stan's Lament posted previously.
>
> As I understood what Stan said, he was lamenting the fact that it hurts
> him, both psychologically and materially, when people pick his brains
> and then work around him to buy his product from someone else without
> ever compensating him for all the time and effort he has put into the
deal.
>
> Stan put forth the idea of paying him a commission for boat resales,
> even if he had no direct part in the deal.  Many people said they
> thought that was a good idea, but none of the people who thought it was
> a good idea were actually selling a boat.  Everyone thought it was a
> good idea for someone else to send Stan money for doing nothing.
>
> Then someone had an idea of writing a book, and instead of making money
> on the book, letting Stan get the money because the book was about
> Stan's boat.
>
> Brad suggested that maybe we could outsource some of Stan's
> non-essential parts to China so Stan could sell more of these
> accessories, have less direct responsibility for their manufacture, and
> make the same amount on every item sold.
>
> So now I am asking the question, and it's just a question, of whether
> people feel this concept should extend even to things we make for
> ourselves where we use Stan's design as a template.  Should Stan get a
> royalty on these things?  Your Boom Room is not a copy of Stan's Boom
> Room.  It performs the same function.  It works for you.  You and Roger
> spent time working it out.  If I copy your idea, should I send you
> something for your time and trouble?  Would you have had the idea for a
> Boom Room if you never saw Stan's?
>
> If you copy Stan's cushions, should you send Stan something for his time
> and trouble?
>
> Of course, this is all on the honor system.  Stan never patented or
> copyrighted his work.  But we are honorable people.  Is this the right
> thing to do?
>
> The guy who patented the intermittent windshield wiper died a multi
> millionaire after suing virtually every automobile maker in world for
> infringing on his patent by developing and deploying their own
> intermittent windshield wipers.
>
> I am willing to bet you anything that you wouldn't come up with the
> right specs on cockpit cushions the first time you tried without using
> Stan's cushions as a template.  You are not even thinking of trying
> this.  I'm sure Stan didn't come up with the right specs the first time,
> either.  Should you pay a royalty for the work you copy?  In the
> computer field you are constantly paying royalties to copy things you
> could copy and use for nothing.  Why doesn't this extend to boats?
>
> I am sure you can make less expensive cockpit cushions that are
> perfectly satisfactory from your point of view compared to the cockpit
> cushions Stan has offered to sell to you--if you copy Stan's.  If you
> make them from your own design, and go through your own trial and error,
> I don't think you will be able to develop the first set of cockpit
> cushions for less than Stan has offered them to you.
>
> I think this is Stan's lament.  It is shared by many creative pioneers,
> and often sinks their businesses.  After they figure things out, make
> prototypes, develop manufacturing, finance inventory, etc. somebody else
> comes along and says "I can copy that for less than you are willing to
> sell it to me."
>
> How do we feel about Stan's Lament when it directly impacts our own
> costs?  Are we willing to send money to Stan for knocking off his
> designs--even if we are only doing it for our own boat?  Did you buy
> your cushions from Stan originally, or did you buy them from someone
> else, and now that they have worn out you want to knock off Stan's
> design and rebuild them yourself?
>
> Apparently everyone takes this question as a personal attack.  It is
> meant as a philosophical question.  For my part, I am willing to pay
> full price for Stan's boom room and use my boom room to make more booms
> rooms that can be sold at a lower price to other people on this list
> provided that Stan makes at least as much money as he would have
otherwise.
>
> I do not always behave this way, but I happen to like this man, and I
> happen to like his product.  What do you think?  I will not judge you
> depending on how you answer.  You may think I'm a crackpot.  You may
> think my philosophical question is fine theoretically, but that you need
> to save money and you can do so by copying Stan's design instead of
> buying the cushions from Stan, or asking to buy a set of plans from him.
>
> I can understand these answers to my question.  But I think these are
> the questions Stan is asking of the entire list, and I think the
> questions deserve a response.  Failing to get that response, I can also
> understand why Stan would decide to pull the plug on our list to make it
> more difficult for people to spread the knowledge Stan has given us for
> nothing to people who think it is OK to use that knowledge to deprive
> Stan of the ability to make money on his own products.
>
> Just one man's opinion, but I'd love to hear what you and others think.
>
> Bill Effros
>
>
>
> Wally Buck wrote:
>
> > Bill, I have no idea what you are talking about? I thought your crazy
> > scheme had Stan selling the Chinese parts? Are you still talking about
> > cushions? Anne and others gave the GB cushions 2 thumbs up. I have
> > already gotten pricing from Stan and I am considering purchase verse
> > homemade. Are you suggesting that one should not make their own
> > replacement cushions.....Are you the riddler? :-)  Serioulsy Bill you
> > have lost me.
> >
> > Stan and GB have no worries from me. Not much chance i will be making
> > R22 cushions for resale.
> >
> > Wally
> >
> >
> >> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> >> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:04:30 -0400
> >>
> >> Wally,
> >>
> >> I interpreted Stan's Lament as a plea to get something for his
> >> troubles (read "intellectual property").  When it came to selling the
> >> boat off-list, everyone said sure, they thought other people should
> >> send Stan 5%.
> >>
> >> What about copying his designs?  Should Stan get 5% of his list price
> >> when people use his designs as a template and make them for themselves?
> >>
> >> I think we know each other well enough for you to know I do not
> >> intend this as a personal attack on you.  (Nor did I intend to attack
> >> Todd, Lou, Roger, Alan, or any of the other people on this list who
> >> have used Stan's designs as a template and not compensated Stan.)
> >>
> >> I ask you this question as an honest inquiry to a lament posted by
> >> Stan, and I ask you to think about it.
> >>
> >> This is not an easy questions, and I am not "Mr. Clean" on this
> >> issue.  I steal intellectual property from others--just not from Stan.
> >>
> >> Bill Effros
> >>
> >> Wally Buck wrote:
> >>
> >>> Bill, Thanks for your response. To clarify. I have cushions in
> >>> cockpit now but they are shot. I do like the folding chairs but I
> >>> would rather put that money toward new cushions.
> >>>
> >>> I was wondering if you added all of these other seating devices
> >>> because the cushions were uncomfortable. Your first description of
> >>> seating arrangements didn't mention comfort of cockpit cushions
> >>> alone. Your solution would have me purchasing 2 Captains Chairs, 2
> >>> bean bag chairs, and 2 folding chairs from West along with all new
> >>> cockpit cushions. That is not an option.
> >>>
> >>> i like an uncluttered cockpit as well as uncluttered cabin. Anne
> >>> says her GB cushions are comfortable so that answered my question. :-)
> >>>
> >>> Wally
> >>>
> >>> Lawn is mowed - NOW I am off to lake!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> >>>> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:49:00 -0400
> >>>>
> >>>> Wally,
> >>>>
> >>>> I guess I never even considered sailing without cushions on the
> >>>> fiberglass benches.  Even though I frequently sail single handed,
> >>>> and always sail from Captain's Seats, I always put out Stan's
> >>>> cushions--every single time.  They are part of the boat, as far as
> >>>> I'm concerned.  I think the proportions of everything are better
> >>>> for sailing when the cushions are in place.  Also, as noted
> >>>> previously, I don't bang myself up as much with the cushions
> >>>> protecting me from harder surfaces.
> >>>>
> >>>> I only sit on the cushions when hove-to, or at anchor, and I guess
> >>>> they are comfortable, enough.  But they are not as comfortable as
> >>>> the cushions with bean bag chairs on top of them, or the cushions
> >>>> with "Elton's" folding seats on top of them.  (I never put the bean
> >>>> bag chairs or folding seats directly on the fiberglass
> >>>> benches--that is not as comfortable as Stan's cushions alone.)
> >>>>
> >>>> When guests come aboard my boat they always marvel at how
> >>>> comfortable they all are--not just the person who grabs the other
> >>>> Captain's seat.  My boat has 6 comfortable seats while sailing.
> >>>> They are all based on putting Stan's cockpit cushions over the hard
> >>>> benches.  Since I sail the boat upright, people do not shift back
> >>>> and forth every time I tack.  They find a comfortable seat, and
> >>>> stay in it for the entire ride.
> >>>>
> >>>> My cockpit, with Stan's cushions and my additional seats, is more
> >>>> comfortable for all of the passengers and crew than any other boat
> >>>> I've ever been in.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>
> >>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I would be using Stan's cockpit cushions for seating. Are they
> >>>>> confortable?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wally
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> >>>>>> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:37:29 -0400
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Wally,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have Stan's cockpit cushions.  I almost never sit directly on
> >>>>>> them.  I generally sit in a captain's chair, with my feet on the
> >>>>>> cushions.  I also have 2 folding seats (available from West for
> >>>>>> around $50), and 2 beanbag chairs purchased from the beanbag lady
> >>>>>> at a boat show for around $75 each.  All 6 seats can be
> >>>>>> comfortably deployed simultaneously.  Each seat is more
> >>>>>> comfortable than any seat that comes standard in any sailboat
> >>>>>> I've ever been on.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Stan's cushions fit perfectly, and have proved very durable.
> >>>>>> They are 7 years old and still look brand new.  I store them
> >>>>>> (along with all the other seats) on the settee when not in use.
> >>>>>> I put them out immediately every time I go on board.  This takes
> >>>>>> around 14 seconds.  I like them for kneeling when I am pulling in
> >>>>>> anchors or putting out fenders.  Every now and again I kneel to
> >>>>>> do something after I have put away the cushions.  Boy those seats
> >>>>>> are hard!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Bill, It is hard to guess what I would want to spend. You need
> >>>>>>> to determine production and shipping costs. From there add the
> >>>>>>> desired mark up. That is the price. I am sure GB does not want
> >>>>>>> to carry large cost for inventory. I would suspect that prices
> >>>>>>> could be quoted for different sizes. Get quotes for 5, 10 25,
> >>>>>>> each.  I have no idea who to go to for "quotes" in China but it
> >>>>>>> sounds like there might be folks on this list that do.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Initially I would want new cockpit cushions with fill in. Also
> >>>>>>> cabin cushions. I am considering doing this myself. I am also
> >>>>>>> getting price locally. One drawbck to doing them myself is the
> >>>>>>> most likely will look like crap. Having them done locally means
> >>>>>>> I can test foam and not pay shipping. Ordering from GB means
> >>>>>>> they will fit right but I don't want standard foam. In the cabin
> >>>>>>> I want to go with 3 inches of foam with 1 inch of memory foam
> >>>>>>> glued on top side. I have seen cushions made this way and they
> >>>>>>> are great for sleeping and sitting. I am still working on best
> >>>>>>> foam for cockpit (with fill in).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Wally
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?
> >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:02:44 -0400
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Wally,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Can you put numbers on your desires?  I mean this quite
> >>>>>>>> seriously.  I know you use your boat, and I know you want to be
> >>>>>>>> fair to Stan.  At what price would you buy various items from
> >>>>>>>> Stan?  Which items would you be most interested in?  What would
> >>>>>>>> you be willing to pay?  You will not be held to any of this--it
> >>>>>>>> is just part of an exercise to see if what we all want can be
> >>>>>>>> done.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> If you are asking me if I have a problem purchasing Chinese
> >>>>>>>>> made boat parts from Stan ....If I place my order and send
> >>>>>>>>> payment to Stan the source doesn't concern me too much. I
> >>>>>>>>> would prefer to buy "USA" but I have owned many imported cars.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You also asked if price is holding me back from purchasing
> >>>>>>>>> boat goodies from GB. The answer is yes. I would love to have
> >>>>>>>>> new cabin cushions, new cockpit cushions, cokcpit fill-in
> >>>>>>>>> cushions, pop-top enclosure, bimini. The boom room really
> >>>>>>>>> doesn't interest me. We overnight quite a bit. If it is stormy
> >>>>>>>>> we go in cabin. If it is nice we like the view from cockpit.
> >>>>>>>>> We also swim and fish.  I am trying to decide if I should
> >>>>>>>>> spend the money on my R22 or perhaps sell and use the cash
> >>>>>>>>> from all of those upgrades for .......
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I forgot, add the battened IMF to my wish  list as well.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Wally
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>>>>> To: R22 List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?
> >>>>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:21:37 -0400
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Brad Haslett emailed me off-list regarding our discussion of
> >>>>>>>>>> boom rooms, etc. which he has been following while
> >>>>>>>>>> vacationing in China.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Brad asked if anyone would have an interest in his exploring
> >>>>>>>>>> Chinese manufacture of Boom Rooms, Sails, Pop-Top Enclosures,
> >>>>>>>>>> Cockpit and Cabin Cushions, Cockpit Fill in Boards, -- all
> >>>>>>>>>> the little stuff the Chinese can make for a fraction of what
> >>>>>>>>>> it costs to manufacture in the US.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I have not asked Stan about this, and I don't think Brad has
> >>>>>>>>>> either, however it goes without saying that if Stan doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>> like the idea, Brad is not going to do it.  Stan would make
> >>>>>>>>>> money on every item made in China, and whatever he says is
> >>>>>>>>>> his cut, that's what he'll get.  There will be no negotiation
> >>>>>>>>>> on this.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> But before he even begins the project, Brad wants to know how
> >>>>>>>>>> the ultimate consumers feel about this idea.  If Brad can set
> >>>>>>>>>> up manufacturing in China with Stan's approval, would Rhodes
> >>>>>>>>>> owners buy the Chinese made products?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Stan would have to provide the original patterns and
> >>>>>>>>>> specifications, but that is all Stan would have to do.  Brad
> >>>>>>>>>> believes he can set up a reliable manufacturing operation in
> >>>>>>>>>> China that will produce any of these products to Stan's
> >>>>>>>>>> satisfaction at a lower cost than Stan can get them produced
> >>>>>>>>>> in the US.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> 5 of us indicated an interest in Boom Rooms.  Me, Chris,
> >>>>>>>>>> Dave, Bruce, and maybe Bob.  (Did I miss anyone?)  I would be
> >>>>>>>>>> willing to be the guinea pig on this. How do the rest of you
> >>>>>>>>>> feel?  Bob, if we could bring the price down, at what price
> >>>>>>>>>> would you be a player?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> What about people who want Pop Top Enclosures, or Battened
> >>>>>>>>>> IMF sails, or cockpit fill in cushions?  Is there a price for
> >>>>>>>>>> these items that would prompt you to take money out of your
> >>>>>>>>>> pocket and put it on the table?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Look at Stan's options prices on his web site
> >>>>>>>>>> (http://www.rhodes22.com/super_options.html).  Is there
> >>>>>>>>>> something you would actually buy if the price were lower?  If
> >>>>>>>>>> so, what would the price have to be?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Brad is returning to the US shortly, and doesn't have much
> >>>>>>>>>> time to see if he can set up something like this.  If you
> >>>>>>>>>> think this is a terrible idea, please speak up quickly so we
> >>>>>>>>>> all know where we stand.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I think this is an interesting idea if Brad can actually do
> >>>>>>>>>> it.  It is something we can all do to put more money in
> >>>>>>>>>> Stan's pocket right away, while buying parts for our boats at
> >>>>>>>>>> a lower cost.  It's a win-win...if Brad can pull it off.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Please note.  Brad is a commercial airline pilot who no
> >>>>>>>>>> longer owns a Rhodes 22.  There is nothing in this deal for
> >>>>>>>>>> him.  He will always make more money flying an airplane than
> >>>>>>>>>> getting involved in a crazy sailboat spare parts Chinese
> >>>>>>>>>> manufacturing scheme.  He just happens to be in China right
> >>>>>>>>>> now, saw Stan's Lament, and asked if there was anything he
> >>>>>>>>>> could do to help.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
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> >>>
> >> __________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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> >
>
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