[Rhodes22-list] Anchor Chain Question

[Bill Effros]

Slim,

I've never used a plow because they are so bulky I don't think I would 
want to carry it on my boat all the time.  I understand they hold well, 
and reset well, but sometimes hang up when you are trying to release them.

I think holding power is generally overrated, and that almost any anchor 
will hold a boat the size of an R-22 almost all of the time.  I would 
play with different sized folding grapnels, and mushrooms before going 
to a plow. 

Most of the people I know who have purchased plow anchors soon start to 
leave them at home because they are such a menace on board.

Bill Effros




Steve Alm wrote:

>Lake Minnetonka, where I sail the most, is very weedy and as I mentioned
>before, my Danforth isn't cutting it.  So I'm thinking about a plow.  The
>Delta one-piece would only have to  be a 14 pounder for the R22, whereas the
>CQR hinged shaft (more expensive) would need to be a 22--at least that's the
>rating in WM.  Anyone have any experience with the Delta?  I understand
>they're not the greatest in soft mud, but I'd keep the Danforth for that.  I
>too plan on increasing my anchoring possibilities this year.  I like the
>folding grapnel as well for its ease of handling and stowing, and I want to
>find something for a sentinel that won't hook on the bottom.
>
>Slim
>
>On 3/23/05 3:11 PM, "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Mary Lou,
>>
>>Thank you for engaging in this discussion, it's been quite useful to me,
>>too.
>>
>>Wally's comments, also.
>>
>>I prefer to sail on weekdays when there are almost no cruising sailboats
>>on my side of the Sound, and plenty of  space to fool around.  Of
>>course, I normally can't see my anchor either, so I pull close to shore,
>>and drop the anchor where I can see what's happening.  It's
>>interesting.  I recommend it.
>>
>>At my mooring the only time the anchor line goes slack is when the
>>direction of the current is reversing and there's no wind.  This is most
>>likely to happen early in the morning.  There are thermals most of the
>>rest of the time.
>>
>>It's hard for me to believe that your anchor chain is actually holding
>>you in place most of the time.  But if you honestly believe it is, I
>>would suggest that you get a 10 or 15 pound mushroom anchor, vinyl
>>coated, which should do a better job, and come up clean.  I would attach
>>an all-line rode.
>>
>>Please understand that in my heart I believe a rusty chain is stronger
>>than a brand-new rope.  But in my head, I know it just isn't so.  Adding
>>chain to line doesn't make the line any stronger.  In fact, it weakens
>>the line at the point where the two are joined.
>>
>>Modern line is monstrously strong.  The stuff just doesn't pull apart.
>>It may chafe, it can age in the sun, it can rot; but if it's in
>>reasonably new condition it won't fail from the amount of strain our
>>boats and ground tackle are capable of exerting.
>>
>>I still have chain on board, but thanks to this discussion, I think I'm
>>going to try not using it for this entire season.  Instead, I plan to
>>mix up my use of anchors, setting multiple anchors in overnight
>>situations.  I'm going to put multiple all-line rodes of varying lengths
>>in a container under a cockpit seat along with half a dozen different
>>anchors.  Then I will select the appropriate rode and anchor for each
>>situation.
>>
>>I, too, have been relying too heavily on my Danforth anchor.  In an
>>emergency situation, that would not be my anchor of choice -- I think a
>>grapnel has a far better chance of quickly setting in a Hail Mary
>>emergency.  I have 4 grapnel anchors of differing weights that would
>>quickly go overboard in an emergency.  After that, I would dump my
>>mushroom anchors, of which I have three of differing weights.  After
>>that I would use my Danforth anchors, of which I also have three, again
>>of differing weights, and currently all attached to rodes with chains
>>segments.
>>
>>Also, as I become more comfortable with all-line rodes, I plan to
>>experiment with kellets, although I anticipate that multiple anchors on
>>separate rodes will be both easier to handle, and more effective.
>>
>>The Chapman I referenced is the 61st edition.  I mentioned it only
>>because someone made a statement that no reputable reference had ever
>>recommended an all-line rode.  The point made in the book is that for
>>smaller boats an all-line rode is preferable to an all-chain, or
>>chain/line rode in many circumstances.  Chain is preferable only when
>>its weight won't upset the balance of the boat, or in instances where
>>the boat and ground tackle are so large that the diameter of rope
>>required becomes unwieldy, and the weight so great that a windlass is
>>required.
>>
>>The catenary, kellet, and shear explanations for partial chain rodes are
>>never adequately explained to my satisfaction, and have not proved to be
>>valid in my experience.  This year I'm going to put my anchors where my
>>mind is.  I'll let you know how it turns out.
>>
>>Bill Effros
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Mary Lou Troy wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Bill.
>>>A few more thoughts. You've raised some very practical points beyond
>>>the theory. I've put a few practical observations below from our 10
>>>years of experience anchoring on the Chesapeake. These points are
>>>probably not "generalizable" (I can't believe my spellchecker accepted
>>>that) beyond anchoring in a mud bottom in mostly shallow water.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Let's start with John's explanation, which is well written, and
>>>>pretty typical.  In order to make his examples work, he's got to
>>>>anchor in 30 feet of water.  I have never anchored in 30 feet of
>>>>water, nor have I ever paid out 200 feet of rode.  (When I first read
>>>>explanations of anchoring like this I bought 300 feet of line on a
>>>>single anchor rode, but most of it has never been in the water.)
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>We've only anchored in 25 feet of water once. It was notoriously bad
>>>holding ground so we put out most of our 200 feet of rode. There are a
>>>few places on the Bay where you get to anchor that deep. We are
>>>usually anchoring in 5 - 6 feet of water mid-tide. Tidal range on our
>>>part of the bay is usually around a foot.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>In practice, I would be happy if I could anchor in 10 feet of water,
>>>>pay out 70 feet of rode, + my 22 ft. boat = 92 feet x 2 = 184
>>>>feet...I would need a circle greater than 184 feet in diameter with
>>>>no other boats encroaching to be sure we would not foul each other's
>>>>rode or bump in the night.  (John's circle would be larger than a
>>>>football field.)  I've never been in a busy anchorage where boats
>>>>stayed a football field away from each other.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>We also routinely anchor in crowded anchorages. Even in 5 feet of
>>>water we sometimes do not get 142 feet (5 feet of water + 2 feet of
>>>freeboard x 7 = 49+ 22 feet of boat = 71 x 2) between boats.
>>>Fortunately most boats swing with the tidal currents and you don't
>>>need that kind of distance. If it's windy enough to overcome the tidal
>>>currents most boats swing with the wind - same effect. We try to have
>>>enough distance to allow for variations in how boats swing.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>In fact, in most busy anchorages you are lucky to get a 100 foot
>>>>circle.  22 feet of boat, 28 feet of rode, 7 foot depth, 4:1 scope.
>>>>If this is the way you are anchoring, then your 16 feet of chain
>>>>represents more than 50% of the rode--however it weighs only around
>>>>10 lbs, and would not be sufficient to create a catenary shape
>>>>between your bow and the anchor.  If you actually anchor in 30 feet
>>>>of water, your 16 feet of chain would still weigh only 10 pounds, and
>>>>could still not create a catenary between your bow and anchor.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>In reality, most of our 16 feet of chain ends up flat on the bottom. I
>>>see the muddy evidence every morning. Catenary effects would only come
>>>into play as the wind picks up. After a particularly windy night we
>>>will have a lot of mud embedded in the chain - mud that helped us stay
>>>put. After a 35-40 knot t-storm I was glad to see all that mud on the
>>>chain the next morning. We rode that one out with the engine running
>>>in case we needed it to take the strain off the anchor. Fortunately we
>>>didn't ever need to put it in gear but the pop-top enclosure and the
>>>bimini create a frightful amount of windage in a storm.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>When I look around my harbor at hundreds of anchored boats what I see
>>>>are very short scopes, no catenary shape, a straight line between the
>>>>anchor and the bow, no chain on the bottom, constant pressure on the
>>>>flukes of the anchors, and very little drifting.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Do boats in your harbors generally turn with the wind or the tide? I
>>>expect your conditions are routinely more extreme. We rarely see a
>>>straight line between the anchor and the bow. We sometimes see a boat
>>>with all chain where the chain drops straight from the bow to the
>>>bottom. We know he didn't set his anchor there because we watched.
>>>Having spend many a minute watching the rode as our boat swings at
>>>anchor, I am certain that the pressure on the flukes is not constant.
>>>Having hauled many a muddy anchor and chain in the morning, I know
>>>that the chain spent a lot of time digging in the mud - it wouldn't do
>>>that if there was a straight line between the bow and the anchor. The
>>>Chesapeake waters are not clear enough to see the anchor even in 5
>>>feet so I have to go by other evidence.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I think everyone should anchor in a manner that allows them to sleep
>>>>in the night, but I find it interesting that so much of what we read
>>>>turns out to be wrong in practice.  As Wally has mentioned, the
>>>>biggest benefit of the all line rode is that it comes up clean.  It
>>>>is much easier to handle and store, and it is light enough so that
>>>>even a child can haul it on board.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>I don't want my anchor and chain to be clean. I want it dug in so that
>>>the chain is part of the system that holds the boat in place. If I
>>>were anchoring for lunch I might consider an anchor with no chain but
>>>most of our anchoring is overnight - and we have two people on board -
>>>one to man the tiller and motor - one to haul anchor and wash down the
>>>chain and rode. If we were single handing we'd be setting and/or
>>>stowing anchors differently.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Anchoring on coral is a frowned upon practice in most places that
>>>>still have coral.   Danforth anchors are the wrong type to use on
>>>>rocky bottoms.  Again, like Wally, I have never seen abrasion on my
>>>>all line rode.  I don't think line abrasion is a valid reason to use
>>>>chain.  I don't think either the chain or the line spends much time
>>>>on the bottom.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>My only experience is with the Danforth. We have yet to find a rocky
>>>bottom on the Chesapeake. We'd have to learn all over again somewhere
>>>else. Our chain spends a lot of time on the bottom. When we had the
>>>shorter chain the first 3 or four feet of rode where it was attached
>>>to the chain would occasionally have a lot of mud as well.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I was surprised to find on our boats that all line rodes worked just
>>>>as well as chain/rode combinations.
>>>>Bill Effros
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>It's interesting to hear your experiences and observations because
>>>they are so different from mine. I'll file them away in case we ever
>>>come sailing on Long Island Sound. I've forgotten - which anchor do
>>>you routinely use?
>>>
>>>Mary Lou
>>>
>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>
>>>      
>>>
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>>
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