[Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political)

[brad haslett]

Wally,

The Iraq war is so politized that one has to research
many diverse sources, including first hand information
like that from your neiphew, to find out what is
really going on.  In all due respect, your neiphew is
looking at one small piece of the pie, however, his
observations are echoed by others looking at that same
small slice.  Progress is being made in terms of
school openings, electricity grids being restored
beyond pre-war status, clean drinking water, etc. 
But, the biggest gains are being made in
self-government.  The Sunnis didn't take to the street
with weapons in anticipation of the vote on a new
constitution, THEY REGISTERED TO VOTE.  How quickly we
forget those images of millions of purple fingers.  To
suggest that democracy can't work in Iraq, or any 
Muslim country, dooms a billion people to a life of
dictators and tyranny.  What are the alternatives? 
Fourteen of nineteen 9/11 attackers came from one of
the wealthiest nations in the region with a massive
welfare state.  As a general rule, democracies don't
attack other democracies.  Now as to the current
debate in Congress, several members have developed
amnesia about their earlier positions because a new
political season is upon us.  This is shameful. To
suggest that they were duped by a President that they
imply is "dumb as a box of rocks" would imply that
they didn't do their due diligence before voting.
Setting a time specific schedule for withdrawal is
ludicrous.  All the insurgents have to do is wait out
the withdrawal and make their move.  THIS IS EXACTLY
WHAT HAPPENED IN VIETNAM.  They no doubt have read
their history books and study the political landscape
in the US as well.

I apologize for once more resorting to "windy"
references, as you would describe them, however, here
is a video of a speech that is worth reviewing. Was he
lying?

http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/11/16/clintoniraq/

Here is an interesting article on WMD's.

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20154

Brad

--- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Brad,
> 
> Like Slim I would rather hear your opinion not the
> windy words of others. 
> You make some valid points along with speculation.
> It seems clear to me that 
> our leaders (the whole nation) were scared after 911
> and we had to do 
> something. Bush had been itching to go after Irag
> long before 911. Many of 
> our leaders (from both sides) showed how limited
> their thinking realy is. 
> They did not know what else to do so we attacked
> Iraq. I am not so sure that 
> Bush lied just to help out Haliburton. I think he
> rushed into this without 
> taking the time to make certain we had the facts.
> Picking a fight is easy. 
> Figuring out aternative solution requires skills
> that Bush just does not 
> have.
> 
> I will also add that many of the so called
> insurgents are from Iraq. My 
> Nephew recently returned from a year in Iraq under
> private contract. His 
> mission was to help train the Iraqui Police force.
> You wouldn't believe how 
> poorly this is going. He is a gun-ho ex Army Ranger
> and I respect his 
> opinion. By the way he just got the word last week,
> he starts his new job 
> with the FBI March 06.
> 
> One day we will learn that if a country doesn't ask
> for our help we 
> shouldn't force it upon them. Seems to me there is a
> better way to help them 
> blowing the crap out of people.
> 
> Wally
> 
> 
> >From: brad haslett <flybrad at yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's
> nest.... (political)
> >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 06:01:08 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Wally, Rummy, et al,
> >
> >What the hell, our Gulfport attorney won't be in
> her
> >office for another hour so why not entertain myself
> >with this?
> >
> >Rummy, you accuse me of chest thumping and then go
> on
> >to beat your own.  I can hear it all the way to
> >Tennessee.  Read the rest of your post and get back
> to
> >me on that issue.  Re-read my disclaimer on
> Buchanan.
> >He is not one of my favorites but that doesn't mean
> he
> >isn't dead on from time to time.  I quote the
> >Clinton's when they are correct on issues, my
> personal
> >distaste for Billy which dates back to long before
> he
> >was President notwithstanting.  Argue the message,
> not
> >the messenger.  I couldn't agree more on the fiscal
> >responsibility issues and that is why Bush is in
> such
> >trouble with some elements of GOP - like me.
> >
> >Wally, I thought I made it clear that I was pressed
> >for time and didn't want to engage in a point for
> >point debate with Slim, but this shouldn't take
> long.
> >
> >"First the tyranny of Saddam. This is no reason to
> >invade a sovereign state.The US has ignored or even
> >supported so many tyrants I can't count 'em.  But
> just
> >to name a few, Pinochet, The Shaw of Iran, Kim Jong
> >Ill, even Saddam himself was armed by the US.  So
> we
> >say, "He's abusing his own citizens so we better go
> in
> >there and take him down."  Not only is this bad
> >foreign
> >policy, but it's bullshit policy because we don't
> >really care.  We didn't care about the Shaw's death
> >squads or Pinochet's.  Why now Saddam?  The whole
> >tyrant argument holds no water at all."
> >
> >That's a pretty cynical view Slim.  We supported
> >Stalin when he was of use to us, and paid a heavy
> >price.  Past mistakes do not doom us to future
> >inaction. Are you implying that because we were
> >previously on the wrong side of history we are
> damned
> >to tolerate every despot?
> >
> >"The same goes for the argument about spreading
> >freedom and democracy. What a load of crap!  Don't
> >tell me that our government actually give a rat's
> ass
> >about an Iraqi democracy.  No, I'm not saying
> >democracy itself is crap, but why would we care
> about
> >Iraq when we don't care about the dozens of
> >other non-democratic countries?  Why Iraq?  Why not
> >invade Cuba?  Isn't Fidel a tyrant?  Why not North
> >Korea?  We know Kim Jong Ill is a tyrant.  This is
> bad
> >foreign policy."
> >
> >It is no secret that we have ignored a lot of
> tyrants
> >in the Mid-East because THEY HAVE OIL!  Our
> "friends"
> >the Saudi's are perhaps the worst of the lot.  The
> >leaders of these nations have focussed the
> attention
> >of their citizens on hating the US for their
> miserable
> >conditions instead of their own leaders.  The
> >democratic process in Iraq has all ready spilled
> over
> >into other countries in the region.  Do you have a
> >better idea?  A billion Muslims constitute a large
> >population to ignore.  Are they a threat under
> their
> >current leaders?  Uh, yes.  Can we force them to
> >change?  No, that has to come from within, and it
> is.
> >Kim Jong III?  We have China to help handle that.
> >Fidel?  A lot of Cubans in Miami would love to
> invade
> >Cuba.  Bay of Pigs ring a bell?  He was a threat
> then,
> >not now unless you consider cornering the market on
> >57' Chevys a threat.
> >
> >"I agreed with Mike Abdullah when he stated we had
> no
> >business in Kuwait in the first place.  We
> shouldn't
> >be fighting other countries' border battles. As
> Mike
> >said, What was Saddam going to do with his oil? 
> Drink
> >it?  He was selling it on the open market and black
> >market just like every other Arab state.  That was
> bad
> >foreign policy."
> >
> >Gee Slim, that sounds familiar.  Poland, Austria,
> >Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc., "peace in our time",
> >yada, yada, yada.  Remember what Santayana wrote
> about
> >repeating history.  What did he do with his oil? 
> Buy
> >weapons from the French, Germans and Russians?
> >
> >
> >
> >"But whatever, then we had Saddam completely
> contained
> >with the
> >no-fly-zone and the sanctions.  He was no threat to
> >us.  Perhaps he was a "threat" to Israel, but why
> go
> >to war with someone you've already beaten?  This is
> >bad foreign policy."
> >
> >Actually Slim, Saddam used to shoot at us in the no
> >fly zone.  I'd be happy to introduce you to some of
> my
> >co-workers who can vouch for that.  Perhaps he was
> a
> >threat to Israel?  Does paying $25,000 to families
> >that provide suicide bombers in Israel constitute a
> >threat?
> >
> >"Did we need to go in and hunt for WMD?  Do we need
> to
> >go into ANY country hunting for WMD?  Again, why
> not
> >North Korea?  This is bad foreign policy."
> >
> >Read above about China and North Korea.
> >
> >"Did we need to go into Iraq to control the oil? 
> No.
> 
=== message truncated ===



		
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