[Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political)

[pdgrand at nospam.wmis.net]

Brad,

I like to hear your personal opinion whenever possible, but I also like the
links you provide.  Good information is good information regardless of the
source (as long as it's a reliable source).

Paul


> Brad,
> 
> Like Slim I would rather hear your opinion not the windy words of others. 
> You make some valid points along with speculation. It seems clear to me that 
> our leaders (the whole nation) were scared after 911 and we had to do 
> something. Bush had been itching to go after Irag long before 911. Many of 
> our leaders (from both sides) showed how limited their thinking realy is. 
> They did not know what else to do so we attacked Iraq. I am not so sure that 
> Bush lied just to help out Haliburton. I think he rushed into this without 
> taking the time to make certain we had the facts. Picking a fight is easy. 
> Figuring out aternative solution requires skills that Bush just does not 
> have.
> 
> I will also add that many of the so called insurgents are from Iraq. My 
> Nephew recently returned from a year in Iraq under private contract. His 
> mission was to help train the Iraqui Police force. You wouldn't believe how 
> poorly this is going. He is a gun-ho ex Army Ranger and I respect his 
> opinion. By the way he just got the word last week, he starts his new job 
> with the FBI March 06.
> 
> One day we will learn that if a country doesn't ask for our help we 
> shouldn't force it upon them. Seems to me there is a better way to help them 
> blowing the crap out of people.
> 
> Wally
> 
> 
> >From: brad haslett <flybrad at yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political)
> >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 06:01:08 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Wally, Rummy, et al,
> >
> >What the hell, our Gulfport attorney won't be in her
> >office for another hour so why not entertain myself
> >with this?
> >
> >Rummy, you accuse me of chest thumping and then go on
> >to beat your own.  I can hear it all the way to
> >Tennessee.  Read the rest of your post and get back to
> >me on that issue.  Re-read my disclaimer on Buchanan.
> >He is not one of my favorites but that doesn't mean he
> >isn't dead on from time to time.  I quote the
> >Clinton's when they are correct on issues, my personal
> >distaste for Billy which dates back to long before he
> >was President notwithstanting.  Argue the message, not
> >the messenger.  I couldn't agree more on the fiscal
> >responsibility issues and that is why Bush is in such
> >trouble with some elements of GOP - like me.
> >
> >Wally, I thought I made it clear that I was pressed
> >for time and didn't want to engage in a point for
> >point debate with Slim, but this shouldn't take long.
> >
> >"First the tyranny of Saddam. This is no reason to
> >invade a sovereign state.The US has ignored or even
> >supported so many tyrants I can't count 'em.  But just
> >to name a few, Pinochet, The Shaw of Iran, Kim Jong
> >Ill, even Saddam himself was armed by the US.  So we
> >say, "He's abusing his own citizens so we better go in
> >there and take him down."  Not only is this bad
> >foreign
> >policy, but it's bullshit policy because we don't
> >really care.  We didn't care about the Shaw's death
> >squads or Pinochet's.  Why now Saddam?  The whole
> >tyrant argument holds no water at all."
> >
> >That's a pretty cynical view Slim.  We supported
> >Stalin when he was of use to us, and paid a heavy
> >price.  Past mistakes do not doom us to future
> >inaction. Are you implying that because we were
> >previously on the wrong side of history we are damned
> >to tolerate every despot?
> >
> >"The same goes for the argument about spreading
> >freedom and democracy. What a load of crap!  Don't
> >tell me that our government actually give a rat's ass
> >about an Iraqi democracy.  No, I'm not saying
> >democracy itself is crap, but why would we care about
> >Iraq when we don't care about the dozens of
> >other non-democratic countries?  Why Iraq?  Why not
> >invade Cuba?  Isn't Fidel a tyrant?  Why not North
> >Korea?  We know Kim Jong Ill is a tyrant.  This is bad
> >foreign policy."
> >
> >It is no secret that we have ignored a lot of tyrants
> >in the Mid-East because THEY HAVE OIL!  Our "friends"
> >the Saudi's are perhaps the worst of the lot.  The
> >leaders of these nations have focussed the attention
> >of their citizens on hating the US for their miserable
> >conditions instead of their own leaders.  The
> >democratic process in Iraq has all ready spilled over
> >into other countries in the region.  Do you have a
> >better idea?  A billion Muslims constitute a large
> >population to ignore.  Are they a threat under their
> >current leaders?  Uh, yes.  Can we force them to
> >change?  No, that has to come from within, and it is.
> >Kim Jong III?  We have China to help handle that.
> >Fidel?  A lot of Cubans in Miami would love to invade
> >Cuba.  Bay of Pigs ring a bell?  He was a threat then,
> >not now unless you consider cornering the market on
> >57' Chevys a threat.
> >
> >"I agreed with Mike Abdullah when he stated we had no
> >business in Kuwait in the first place.  We shouldn't
> >be fighting other countries' border battles. As Mike
> >said, What was Saddam going to do with his oil?  Drink
> >it?  He was selling it on the open market and black
> >market just like every other Arab state.  That was bad
> >foreign policy."
> >
> >Gee Slim, that sounds familiar.  Poland, Austria,
> >Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc., "peace in our time",
> >yada, yada, yada.  Remember what Santayana wrote about
> >repeating history.  What did he do with his oil?  Buy
> >weapons from the French, Germans and Russians?
> >
> >
> >
> >"But whatever, then we had Saddam completely contained
> >with the
> >no-fly-zone and the sanctions.  He was no threat to
> >us.  Perhaps he was a "threat" to Israel, but why go
> >to war with someone you've already beaten?  This is
> >bad foreign policy."
> >
> >Actually Slim, Saddam used to shoot at us in the no
> >fly zone.  I'd be happy to introduce you to some of my
> >co-workers who can vouch for that.  Perhaps he was a
> >threat to Israel?  Does paying $25,000 to families
> >that provide suicide bombers in Israel constitute a
> >threat?
> >
> >"Did we need to go in and hunt for WMD?  Do we need to
> >go into ANY country hunting for WMD?  Again, why not
> >North Korea?  This is bad foreign policy."
> >
> >Read above about China and North Korea.
> >
> >"Did we need to go into Iraq to control the oil?  No.
> >What have oil prices done since then?  The exact same
> >thing they would have done had we not gone to war.
> >They've gone up.  Happy now?"
> >
> >You are correct, oil prices are a function of supply
> >and demand and geological limits.  We did not go to
> >war directly over oil but if it wasn't for oil, Sadamm
> >would be just another piss-ant dictator that we could
> >ignore, like most of Africa.
> >
> >
> >
> >"Did we need to go into Iraq as a response to 9/11?
> >This is asinine foreign policy.  Everyone knows Saddam
> >had nothing to do with that."
> >
> >It was the official policy of the Clinton
> >administration to take out Saddam.  Aside from one or
> >two missles up some donkey's ass around the
> >impeachment hearings, it was all talk and no action.
> >9/11 raised the awareness level of the threat and
> >provided a convenient selling point.
> >
> >"Thousands are now dead or wounded so Halliburton
> >could make a windfall. Folks, the definition of
> >Fascism is when government is in bed with
> >business.THIS IS VERY BAD FOREIGN POLICY!"
> >
> >Sorry Slim, that statement is not worthy of a
> >response.
> >
> >"Our government is despised by nearly every soul
> >outside our borders.  And over half those inside!  Do
> >polls dictate our policy?  I think not. Although I
> >noticed the Indonesians' attitude towards us perked up
> >a bit after all the tsunami relief money that poured
> >in.  But even our low-key, happy neighbors to the
> >north hate Bush.  The joke going around Canada is
> >that all you have to do to get elected is to be
> >anti-Bush.  I won't go into how mein furor is screwing
> >Canada on the softwoods issue.  I'll leave that for
> >another thread.  But we buy lots and lots of oil from
> >Canada so we ought to be nice to her.  Guess who else
> >wants Canadian oil?  China.  And lots and lots of it.
> >Maybe we should invade Canada.  Yeah, that's the
> >ticket,
> >eh!"
> >
> >News flash!  We've been despised outside our borders
> >long before W came into power.  Do polls dictate our
> >policy?  NO!  Does being liked by everyone dictate our
> >policy?  NO.  Tojo and Adolf didn't like us either.
> >
> >"It's beyond me how anyone can favor this war for any
> >reason."
> >
> >A lot of people feel as you do Slim, including a huge
> >part of the moderate element of the GOP.  So what do
> >you suggest, cut and run?  We tried that.  I believe
> >John Kerry said a few thousand would be killed when we
> >pulled out of Vietnam.  He was off by a few million.
> >To allow Iraq to fall into civil war would doom any
> >chance of the Middle East ever progressing beyond
> >dictatorships and tyrants. Why do we care?  Israel for
> >one, then there's the OIL!
> >
> >Any one pissed off yet?  THUMP, THUMP, THUMP!
> >
> >Gotta take care of business, see ya!
> >
> >Brad
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Brad,
> > >
> > > Your post doesn't really answer any of Slim's
> > > points. As you know I have
> > > been against this was from day one. It doesn't
> > > matter what side led us into
> > > the mess.
> > >
> > > Wally
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: brad haslett <flybrad at yahoo.com>
> > > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's
> > > nest.... (political)
> > > >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 03:15:59 -0800 (PST)
> > > >
> > > >Slim,
> > > >
> > > >Forgive me, I lied.  It is only 5am and I do have
> > > time
> > > >for one more post.  This is something I ran across
> > > >reading the morning papers.  Buchanan is not a
> > > >favorite of mine but sometimes he "gets it".
> > > Enjoy.
> > > >
> > > >Brad
> > > >
> > > >--------------
> > > >November 16, 2005
> > > >The Politics of War and the Patriot Card
> > > >By Pat Buchanan
> > > >
> > > >Since the indictment of Scooter Libby, President
> > > Bush
> > > >and Vice President Cheney have been under
> > > relentless
> > > >assault.
> > > >
> > > >The gravamen of the charge is that Bush, Cheney and
> > > >the War Party cherry-picked and hyped the
> > > intelligence
> > > >on Iraqi WMDs and Saddam's ties to al-Qaida and
> > > 9-11,
> > > >and spoke of mushroom clouds over U.S. cities based
> > > on
> > > >flimsy evidence and forged documents that Saddam
> > > had
> > > >reconstituted his nuclear weapons program.
> > > >
> > > >Echoed by anti-Bush media that can smell blood in
> > > the
> > > >water, the Democratic Party is charging that Bush
> > > >misled, deceived or lied us into war. With polls
> > > >showing 57 percent of the nation no longer believes
> > > >Bush to be honest and truthful, the unanswered
> > > charges
> > > >have had a devastating impact.
> > > >
> > > >But Bush has a last card to play, and on Veterans
> > > Day,
> > > >he played it, the ace of trumps in any president's
> > > >hand: the patriot card.
> > > >
> > > >Speaking in Pennsylvania to the troops, Bush said
> > > that
> > > >pro-war Democrats like John Kerry saw the same
> > > >intelligence he did and voted to take Saddam down,
> > > and
> > > >that Democrats now accusing him of faking
> > > intelligence
> > > >are undercutting our fighting troops in Iraq.
> > > >
> > > >Translation: Democrats are giving aid and comfort
> > > to
> > > >the enemy in time of war. We are one step away form
> > > >the T-word.
> > > >
> > > >With his poll ratings at rock bottom and little to
> > > >lose, Bush has just escalated the war politics.
> > > >Democrats who have had it all their way since Cindy
> > > >Sheehan set up Camp Casey would do well to wonder
> > > >whether they have not ridden out a little too far
> > > into
> > > >Indian country and are heading for the Little Big
> > > Horn
> > > >where their daddies disappeared long ago.
> > > >
> > > >In the late 1940s, the Party of Truman and FDR was
> > > >shredded by Nixon, Bill Jenner and Joe McCarthy for
> > > >having sold out Eastern Europe at Yalta, lost
> > > China,
> > > >and coddled communists and Stalinist spies like
> > > Alger
> > > >Hiss and Harry Dexter White. And there was a reason
> > > >the attacks stuck. They had the ancillary benefit
> > > of
> > > >being true.
> > > >
> > > >The media may have rewritten history to make the
> > > >Edward R. Murrow Left look like the heroes of the
> > > era,
> > > >but the Democratic Party never recovered from the
> > > >charge its leaders had groveled to Stalin. JFK knew
> > > >it, and ran and won the presidency as an
> > > >anti-communist hawk.
> > > >
> > > >A generation later, Nixon and Agnew charged the
> > > >Democratic Party with having marched us into
> > > Vietnam
> > > >and then, when the going got tough, of having
> > > turned
> > > >tail, cut and run, and gone over the hill to march
> > > >with the children against the war into which they
> > > had
> > > >themselves led the United States. Those charges
> > > stuck
> > > >for the same reason: They were true.
> > > >
> > > >Between 1961 and 1969, when America was plunged
> > > into
> > > >Vietnam, Washington was Democratic, from the White
> > > >House to the Capitol to the pro-war Washington
> > > Post.
> > > >When Nixon arrived in 1969, Democrats started
> > > calling
> > > >it "Nixon's War," but the country knew it was a
> > > >Democratic war. And when the liberals turned on
> > > Nixon,
> > > >America turned on them and gave him a 49-state
> > > >landslide. Vietnam was the wheel on which
> > > liberalism
> > > >was broken and the FDR New Deal coalition shattered
> > > >forever.
> > > >
> > > >Now, Democrats have maneuvered themselves onto the
> > > >same risky terrain once again.
> > > >
> > > >Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice took us to war, but
> > > >Democrats were the happiest of camp followers. And
> > > >everybody knows it. Daschle, Kerry, Edwards, Biden,
> > > >Clinton and Schumer all declared Saddam a threat to
> > > >the Middle East and the United States. All voted in
> > > >October 2002 to give Bush his blank check to take
> > > us
> > > >to war. Now that the war is dragging on toward its
> > > >fourth year, now that footage of young men trying
> > > to
> > > >walk with artificial limbs is on nightly TV, now
> > > that
> > > >the morning papers report three or four more
> > > American
> > > >dead every day, they are trying to say they were
> > > >misled, they were deceived, they were lied to. It's
> > > >not our fault!
> > > >
> > > >But the truth is they failed America. They handed
> > > to
> > > >Bush the war power the Constitution had given to
> > > them.
> > > >Having enlisted enthusiastically in a "cakewalk"
> > > war,
> > > >national Democrats and Big Media are deserting and
> > > >applying for conscientious objector status in what
> > > now
> > > >appears an endless war.
> > > >
> > > >Sorry, it is too late for that.
> > > >
> > > >What Bush was saying in Pennsylvania is this: You
> > > may
> > > >accuse me of falsifying intelligence, but you are
> > > >falsifying history. And you will not get away with
> > > it.
> > > >I am going to fight it out on this line, even if it
> > > >costs me my presidency. But if I am going down, you
> > > >are going down with me.
> > > >
> > > >If Iraq is lost to chaos and civil war, and this is
> > > a
> > > >historic defeat and strategic disaster for the
> > > United
> > > >States, Bush is saying, I will charge you with
> > > cutting
> > > >and running, abandoning our troops under fire and
> > > >losing the Iraq war. No wonder Bill and Hillary
> > > seem
> > > >wary of throwing in with the Cindy Sheehan crowd.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- Slim <salm at mn.rr.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Never mind the spin or the rhetoric, forget
> > > about
> > > > > so-called intelligence,
> > > > > never mind your own left or right stripes.  What
> > >
> >=== message truncated ===
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
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> >http://mail.yahoo.com
> >__________________________________________________
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