[Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political) - JohnMurtha chimes in

Thu Nov 17 11:06:47 EST 2005

Saroj,

Last post before going flying - leaving for Houston
this afternoon.

Murtha is saying little new he hasn't said before. 
He's been highly critical of the conduct of the Iraq
war, as is his and everyone's right.  My point is, one
would think that a Vietnam vet like Murtha would
understand what the effect of calling for a time
specific pullout of troops will be.  If he doesn't, he
should re-visit his own war experience history.  If
the stakes in Iraq are so small that it doesn't
matter, why did he support the resolution to go to war
in the first place.

My point about WW2 is that it would be inconcievable
for Dewey supporters, freshly defeated by FDR, to
advocate leaving Germany because we ran into
resistance and got bogged down at Bastogne.  We were
late entering that war, and no one knew how long the
fight would take.  Unfortunately we declared the war
over early, went home, and left China and Eastern
Europe to the Communists.  That was the point Buchanan
was making in his article yesterday.  (Rummy, in case
you don't know, Buchannan has been a vocal opponent of
the Iraq war from the beginning).  Congress voted to
pull troops out of Vietnam and the South fell
immediately.  What are the current advocates of
setting a time certain date for an Iraqi withdrawal
proposing?  It doesn't matter anymore?  Despite
whatever misgivings one may have about starting this
war, it would be insane to end it prematurely.  How
safe is France for their appeasment of the
Islamofascists?  Spain?

Why is it when Bill Clinton makes a speech during his
administration that Saddam is a risk, we are to
believe him?  Did he mislead us as well, or was the
threat real?  Can anyone explain why a man who had no
WMD wouldn't just show his cards and spare his family
and power?  It doesn't make sense because it doesn't
make sense.  If Bush so misled the Congress, why
didn't they just do a comparison and contrast with the
intel given them by the Clinton administration?  

Pro-war or anti-war, the current politics of this
stinks.

Brad

--- Saroj Gilbert <saroj at pathfind.net> wrote:

> Brad, this wasn't a CNN scoop.. Murtha was speaking
> himself.
> 
> Murtha along with others who have experienced an
> insurgent war (e.g., Rummy) 
> seem to have some idea about how a war like this
> needs to be fought.. is it 
> possible that in the Fall of 2003 he could see that
> the path the US was 
> taking was doomed to failure?
> 
> I think to compare our invasion of Iraq to WWII is
> bizarre at best.  Between 
> the Germans and the Japanese, the horrors were
> widespread and extreme.  If 
> you "remember", we were VERY late getting into this
> war.. far too late in my 
> view.
> 
> I also supported the war with Iraq based on the
> presentation of intelligence 
> presented by Colin Powell "prior" to our going to
> war.. I don't now and 
> haven't for months... irrespective of any polls... I
> certainly don't 
> consider myself a sheep and could give a crap about
> how the masses think 
> about it.
> 
> Saroj
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "brad haslett" <flybrad at yahoo.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 11:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's
> nest.... (political) - 
> JohnMurtha chimes in
> 
> 
> > Saroj,
> >
> > Murtha voted to go to war, then as early as Fall
> of
> > 2003, gave a joint press conference with Pelosi
> > condeming the conduct of the war.  One of his
> beefs
> > was that the Pentagon wasn't answering his
> letters.
> > Maybe he isn't as respected as he thinks.  He
> called
> > for troop withdrawals in the Spring of 2004 so CNN
> > hardly has a scoop.  With Bush at new lows in the
> > polls and the Iraq war losing support, expect a
> lot
> > more in Congress to jump on the withdrawal
> bandwagon.
> > They were all for war when the public sentiment
> was
> > behind it.  Are they following their real gut
> > instincts or like sheep, following the polls? 
> Even
> > former President Clinton is testing the waters on
> the
> > anti-war front,  though this is in complete
> opposition
> > to a multitude of speeches and statements he made
> > during his administration.  Thank goodness these
> > spineless cowards weren't around during D-Day. 
> We'd
> > have pulled out at the first hedgerow.
> >
> > Brad
> >
> > --- Saroj Gilbert <saroj at pathfind.net> wrote:
> >
> >> John Murtha from PA, highly respected (by the
> >> Pentagon) is right now calling
> >> for a complete withdrawal of U.S. troops in
> Iraq....
> >> on CNN.
> >>
> >> Saroj
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "brad haslett" <flybrad at yahoo.com>
> >> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> >> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 8:37 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] stirring the
> hornet's
> >> nest.... (political)
> >>
> >>
> >> > Wally,
> >> >
> >> > The Iraq war is so politized that one has to
> >> research
> >> > many diverse sources, including first hand
> >> information
> >> > like that from your neiphew, to find out what
> is
> >> > really going on.  In all due respect, your
> neiphew
> >> is
> >> > looking at one small piece of the pie, however,
> >> his
> >> > observations are echoed by others looking at
> that
> >> same
> >> > small slice.  Progress is being made in terms
> of
> >> > school openings, electricity grids being
> restored
> >> > beyond pre-war status, clean drinking water,
> etc.
> >> > But, the biggest gains are being made in
> >> > self-government.  The Sunnis didn't take to the
> >> street
> >> > with weapons in anticipation of the vote on a
> new
> >> > constitution, THEY REGISTERED TO VOTE.  How
> >> quickly we
> >> > forget those images of millions of purple
> fingers.
> >>  To
> >> > suggest that democracy can't work in Iraq, or
> any
> >> > Muslim country, dooms a billion people to a
> life
> >> of
> >> > dictators and tyranny.  What are the
> alternatives?
> >> > Fourteen of nineteen 9/11 attackers came from
> one
> >> of
> >> > the wealthiest nations in the region with a
> >> massive
> >> > welfare state.  As a general rule, democracies
> >> don't
> >> > attack other democracies.  Now as to the
> current
> >> > debate in Congress, several members have
> developed
> >> > amnesia about their earlier positions because a
> >> new
> >> > political season is upon us.  This is shameful.
> To
> >> > suggest that they were duped by a President
> that
> >> they
> >> > imply is "dumb as a box of rocks" would imply
> that
> >> > they didn't do their due diligence before
> voting.
> >> > Setting a time specific schedule for withdrawal
> is
> >> > ludicrous.  All the insurgents have to do is
> wait
> >> out
> >> > the withdrawal and make their move.  THIS IS
> >> EXACTLY
> >> > WHAT HAPPENED IN VIETNAM.  They no doubt have
> read
> >> > their history books and study the political
> >> landscape
> >> > in the US as well.
> >> >
> >> > I apologize for once more resorting to "windy"
> >> > references, as you would describe them,
> however,
> >> here
> >> > is a video of a speech that is worth reviewing.
> >> Was he
> >> > lying?
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/11/16/clintoniraq/
> >> >
> >> > Here is an interesting article on WMD's.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20154
> >> >
> >> > Brad
> >> >
> >> > --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Brad,
> >> >>
> >> >> Like Slim I would rather hear your opinion not
> >> the
> >> >> windy words of others.
> >> >> You make some valid points along with
> >> speculation.
> 
=== message truncated ===

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