[Rhodes22-list] Chain -- Another Opinion

Michel Meltzer mjm at michaelmeltzer.com
Mon Jan 16 11:05:49 EST 2006


Bill I am not into the black helicopter thing, WM in bed with PS, come
on, you have no evidence for that(I read the same last 10 years worth),
you do not like the result so you makeup the augment? West is the
largest (still left standing) marine supplier, when the danfoths cam off
patent they made a knock off to sell, it look like they did a good job
and acource they know who PS it, they live in that space.

Over sizing shackles is SOP, been the recommend advice for years, hint
you can only upsize one size, otherwise it will not fit thought the
chain.

The rope splice used on a windlass for a chain/rope connection is not
the same one we use for a shack/thimble, you are comparing apples and
oranges.

The loading number are about 400 - 900 pounds for a rhodes22 I have no
idea why you are worthier about the 3000 lb range.

How would you like to sort anchors, price, weight, recommended boat
size, come on you knew better. Fx-37 419$ 46-51 boat length, come on,
what about a #20 spade 714$ great item, is a few more thing in the the
last set of email, like all the anchor are at 100:1 on chain setting, it
the carintry effect again, think about it, The are other things but this
is getting tedious to be correcting all the time, Which leads me
statement:

Bill as far as I can tell, you did not like a little mud coming up on
your chain so you removed it and are zealot about it, you are picking
and choosing your facts, you onlu know what you see.......... make it up
when it does not fit your needs, that not fair or nice, you are all over
the place, Bill have a great time, post all you like, but please
research the subject a little more, understand what is being written and
above all do the past off or fact that is your option.

-MJM


> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org [mailto:rhodes22-list-
> bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill Effros
> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 1:34 AM
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Chain -- Another Opinion
> 
> No, Michael, he's not talking about an all chain rode.
> 
> He's talking about using chain in your rode, and if so, how long it
> should be.  He is saying that the ONLY (that's him shouting, not me)
> "the main and ONLY advantage of the chain is that it is the only and
> perfect means to avoid chafing of the anchoring rode on aggressive sea
> beds..."  I agree with him, however I don't anchor on aggressive sea
> beds, so I agree with him that I don't need any chain at all--it
doesn't
> do all the thing people like to claim for it:
> 
> It doesn't act as a shock absorber when you need a shock absorber.
> 
> It doesn't maintain a catenary curve when you need a catenary curve.
> 
> It doesn't function as helper metal when you need helper metal.
> 
> It is more likely to pull your anchor out of the bottom the higher the
> load on the rode.
> 
> He points out that the junction between the rope and the chain
> substantially weakens the rope, and that the chain is only as strong
as
> it's weakest link--i.e. a chain/rope rode is always weaker than an all
> rope rode using the same rope.
> 
> BTW -- He cautions against over-sizing the rope because it becomes
less
> elastic as the diameter becomes greater, and it has been his
experience
> that elasticity is a more important quality than additional strength.
> 
> With regard to the amount of chain required, he says this variable
> depends on the depth of the water you anchor in, not the size of your
> boat.  He recommends roughly 75 feet of chain.  If we were to follow
> this recommendation most of us would be anchoring on all chain, all
the
> time.  Hylas says the only reason to do this is if the bottom is
likely
> to chew up your rope.  He recommends splicing another 225 feet of rope
> to the 75 feet of chain.
> 
> Hylas also writes, in conclusion:
> 
> "I was alarmed to realize than more than half the boats are relying on
> what is in my opinion a dangerous rode. (Note - I am not talking about
> inadequate anchors here).
> 
> Main points are:
> 
> A too small, rusted and not secured shackle
> 
> The use of beautiful stainless steel anchor connectors. The most
common
> one has an axle drilled to put a "security " screw on the opposite
> side.. although this is a wonderfull idea to avoid unscrewing of the
> axle the hole in the middle of the axle decreases the strength. For a
5
> tons chain resistance, this connector has only three tons of
resistance
> ... check yours!!!.
> 
> Swivels . . . the theory is perfect, but under load, swivels don't
work.
> More importantly, check their breaking strength, not only with a
> straight pull but also with a sideways pull..
> 
> Connecting links - these have a breaking strength of only few hundred
kg
> . . . NEVER use them on a mooring line.
> 
> *CONNECTING THE ANCHOR AND CHAIN*
> 
> A shackle is perfect. As before, always use one size bigger than the
> chain . . .and secure the pin! The simplest and perfect way is to use
a
> toggle, the same you use for your rigging. Again, use one size bigger
> than the chain (12 mm for 10 mm chain)."
> 
> Bill Effros
> 
> 
> Michel Meltzer wrote:
> 
> >He is talking about an all chain rode, and that's the "standard"
> >problem",
> >That the reason all the "rubber" anchor junk in the marina catalogs.
> >Your mooring is also an example of that, chain going to 5/8 or 3/4
> >pendant(assuming the standard set up) for around here, even thought
> >there is nylon, it to short and way to heavy for the boat to act as
any
> >thing of shock adsorption, king of like going down the road in a car
> >with bad shock, lousy ride :-)
> >
> >-MJM
> >
> >PS. His native langue is French(talk to him when I ordered, rally
same
> >company then). Some of the "tone" will not translate right.
> >
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org [mailto:rhodes22-list-
> >>bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill Effros
> >>Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 7:16 PM
> >>To: R22 List
> >>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Chain -- Another Opinion
> >>
> >>I am busily working on a rant, and in the course of my research
> >>
> >>
> >stumbled
> >
> >
> >>across this from the inventor of the Spade anchor:
> >>
> >>"NB - these are Alain's opinions, and as with all advice you must
> >>eventually make up your own mind. He does do a lot of anchoring
> >>
> >>
> >though!
> >
> >
> >>CHAIN OR ROPE?
> >>
> >>The main and ONLY advantage of the chain is that it is the only and
> >>perfect means to avoid chafing of the anchoring rode on aggressive
sea
> >>beds...
> >>
> >>Except for this point, chain has all the disadvantages..:
> >>
> >>Stored in the bow chain locker, it adds a heavy weight in the last
> >>
> >>
> >place
> >
> >
> >>you want one.
> >>
> >>When deployed, chain is actually working in the the opposite way to
> >>
> >>
> >the
> >
> >
> >>way it should work:
> >>
> >>    * with light wind, it gives a perfect horizontal pull to the
> >>
> >>
> >anchor
> >
> >
> >>and the best holding.
> >>    * with moderate wind, its weight and catenary effect give a
> >>
> >>
> >perfect
> >
> >
> >>shock absorbing effect.
> >>    * As the wind builds up, the chain will become straighter (and
> >>
> >>
> >this
> >
> >
> >>with as little as 25/30 knots of wind). The pulling angle will
> >>
> >>
> >increase
> >
> >
> >>and as a consequence, the holding of the anchor will decrease.
> >>    * When the shock absorbing effect is most necessary, the "bar
> >>
> >>
> >tight"
> >
> >
> >>chain will not allow this to happen.
> >>
> >>If there are waves entering the anchorage, the resulting shocks will
> >>
> >>
> >be
> >
> >
> >>then directly transfered to the anchor, which then has more chance
to
> >>break free .. . and more seriously, the chain is subject to high
> >>
> >>
> >"peaks"
> >
> >
> >>of pulling force and has a consequently higher risk of breaking.. "
> >>
> >>
> >>Bill Effros
> >>
> >>
> >>__________________________________________________
> >>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>
> >>
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________
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