[Rhodes22-list] Hybrid Cars
TN Rhodey
tnrhodey at hotmail.com
Wed Oct 11 09:20:17 EDT 2006
Brad,
I am hoping I will not be in the "car" market for at least 5 - 7 years. I
tend to hang onto cars for a long time. I still need to buy a new tow
vehicle but I am not in any rush.
Wally
>From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Hybrid Cars
>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:19:13 -0500
>
>Wally,
>
>Wait three years. Hyundai is producing a diesel/hybrid to be introduced
>for
>the Beijing Olympics. You can expect something in the 70-90 mpg
>range. Hyundai is South Korean but has a huge presence in China (our
>trackhoe was made there - engine in Japan). All the big auto manufacturers
>have similar designs on the shelf waiting for the market or social policy.
>China is going to use the Olympics to show the world how "green" they are.
>In reality, they are putting forth a lot more effort than us, but then
>they're starting in the hole. China is aggressively pursuing oil across the
>globe to meet their demands but they also are early adopters of
>conservation. That's one more area where we're losing to the competition.
>
>Brad
>
>
>On 10/10/06, TN Rhodey <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Bill,
>>
>>I puchased my Honda used and did not see any used Hybrids. I paid way less
>>(over 7K) than a new Hybrid but I did test drive one and they were nice.
>>That being said my good friend owns a Civic Hybrid and her MPG is not
>>really
>>any better than mine. I am curious what MPG do you get? Granted they are
>>less polluting and that is a good thing. I never by a new car but maybe in
>>a
>>few years the Hybrids will be the way to go.
>>
>>Wally
>>
>>
>> >From: "William E. Wickman" <wewickman at duke-energy.com>
>> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Hybrid Cars
>> >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:45:48 -0400
>> >
>> >
>> >Where is everyone's social conscience? Getting to nearly no emissions
>>and
>> >reducing our dependence on foreign oil. While one hybrid will not cure
>> >global warming and bring OPEC to its knees, just think about the
>> >possibilities if half the cars in the US were hybrid? We Americans are
>> >spoiled. No one wants to pay to clean up the environmental mess that
>>our
>> >capitalistic money grubbing society has created. We want to have our
>>cake
>> >and eat it too. If poor native Alaskan's can turn down free oil from
>> >Venezuela, then we all should be able to cough up a few more dollars for
>> >vehicles that burn less fuel and make for a cleaner environment.
>> >
>> >Man.....I'm starting to sound like a liberal!! But I'm not.
>> >
>> >Really, I'm not.
>> >
>> >Also, did you factor in the Tax Credit? I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid a
>> >few months ago and was able to haggle the price down to a point that,
>>with
>> >the tax credit, the price was nearly equal to the standard Civic (of
>> >course, I probably could have haggled the price down on the standard
>>model
>> >as well).
>> >
>> >Bottom Line is that people that buy hybrids are not driven solely by
>> >economics.
>> >
>> >Bill Wickman
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Bill Effros
>> > <bill at effros.com>
>> > Sent by:
>>To
>> > rhodes22-list-bou The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> > nces at rhodes22.org <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >
>>cc
>> >
>> > 10/09/2006
>>11:31 Subject
>> > PM [Rhodes22-list] Hybrid Cars
>> >
>> >
>> > Please respond to
>> > The Rhodes 22
>> > mail list
>> > <rhodes22-list at rh
>> > odes22.org>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Thanks, Hank,
>> >
>> >I did the same math, and came to the same conclusion. But I have a
>> >special need, and that is why I'm buying the car. I will be doing a
>> >book tour next Spring, the first of many. I drive from city to city
>> >because it's so much less a hassle than flying. My interest in the
>> >Toyota Camry is its range, which is better than 600 miles on a tankful.
>> >
>> >When you do the morning news you often have to be at the TV station
>> >before 6:00 am. If you have driven a couple of hundred miles to get to
>> >the next city late at night, you don't want to have to drive around to
>> >find an open gas station, either late at night or early the next
>> >morning. I like to sleep as close to the first TV station as possible,
>> >and often they are located in remote places with no nearby gas
>> >stations. The huge range allows me to drive from one city to the next,
>> >hitting all the local TV stations the next morning before I have to fill
>> >the tank and get to the next town.
>> >
>> >This is also the reason for not buying a diesel. In many places diesel
>> >is just too hard to come by.
>> >
>> >The last time I did this I bought a Camry that had a 500 plus mile
>> >range. I didn't often get to the bottom of the tank, but a few times I
>> >did. I liked the car--it was comfortable and quiet for repeated long
>> >trips. The new one is supposed to have the same attributes, and the 600
>> >mile range is the big draw for me.
>> >
>> >Bill Effros
>> >
>> >Hank wrote:
>> > > Bill,
>> > >
>> > > On the subject of hybrid cars, we recently bought a new car and we
>>were
>> > > looking at the Honda Civic, both standard and hybrid. For us, the
>> > > math just
>> > > didn't work out and we ended up buying the standard version. I'll
>>show
>> > > you
>> > > what I mean. FYI, both of the cause were comparable equipped with
>>the
>> > > only
>> > > real difference being the drivetrain.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Honda Civic
>> > >
>> > > MPG
>> > >
>> > > Gas Cost/Gal
>> > >
>> > > Annual Miles
>> > >
>> > > Gas/year (Mileage/MPG)
>> > >
>> > > Gas Cost/year
>> > >
>> > > Veh Cost
>> > >
>> > > # of years to break even
>> > >
>> > > Regular
>> > >
>> > > 30
>> > >
>> > > 2.5
>> > >
>> > > 15000
>> > >
>> > > 500
>> > >
>> > > 1250
>> > >
>> > > 18000
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Hybrid
>> > >
>> > > 50
>> > >
>> > > 2.5
>> > >
>> > > 15000
>> > >
>> > > 300
>> > >
>> > > 750
>> > >
>> > > 22000
>> > >
>> > > 8
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > At a savings of $500 a year in gas, it would take 8 years for the
>> > > hybrid to
>> > > break even with the normal engine version because of the increased
>> > > purchase
>> > > price. To me, that is just not economically feasible.
>> > > Hank
>> > >
>> > > On 10/9/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Saroj,
>> > >>
>> > >> Just found this. Be careful on geothermal. My brother tried it and
>> >got
>> > >> burned--no, that's a bad word word in this instance--he got
>>frozen--it
>> > >> sucked so much water out of the ground that there was none left for
>> > >> cooking or bathing--not to mention that it got lukewarm very
>>quickly.
>> > >>
>> > >> Bill Effros
>> > >>
>> > >> PS -- I've rented the straight diesel cars in Europe and they are
>> > >> sensational. You can't tell they are diesels any more except when
>>you
>> > >> keep passing gas pumps without needing any more fuel. I am
>>seriously
>> > >> considering a hybrid Camry for myself.
>> > >>
>> > >> Saroj Gilbert wrote:
>> > >> > I've heard the deisel - electric cars are available in Europe
>>now..
>> >so
>> > >> > maybe not so far away.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I am planning on geothermal which should certainly help with the
>> > >> > cooling... as it turns out I have to dig a well on this property
>>even
>> > >> > though it is fairly Urban... a very old and small neighborhood
>>where
>> > >> > most have wells already so no impetus to provide city water.
>>which
>> >is
>> > >> > just fine with me. The well drilling company I plan to use already
>> >has
>> > >> > experience drilling the geothermal holes as well... so one-stop
>> > >> shopping.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Also already planning on the SIP approach... trying to blend the
>> > >> > energy-efficiency with some interesting architecture aside from
>>the
>> > >> > typical Colonial or brick ranch that is common in this
>>area. Thought
>> > >> > seriously about doing a dome, but decided against it for this area
>> >for
>> > >> > asset-protection reasons.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Thanks for the good info!
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Saroj
>> > >> >
>> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Haslett" <
>>flybrad at gmail.com>
>> > >> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > >> > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 1:01 PM
>> > >> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Good News - Gas Prices Falling
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Bill & Saroj,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Bill, the Jetta will work for me. I've owned a couple of early
>>80's
>> > >> > diesel
>> > >> > Rabbits and a diesel Audi 4000 (same drive train) The Rabbit
>> >hatchback
>> > >> is
>> > >> > coming back but I prefer a sedan. I flew GDL, Mexico all last
>>month
>> > >> > where
>> > >> > the Jetta is built. They just settled their strike and hopefully
>>the
>> > >> > quality will be good.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Saroj, diesel-hybrids are off the shelf technology and my company
>> > >> did a
>> > >> > joint-venture with Eaton to produce diesel-hybrid delivery trucks.
>> > >> Duh!
>> > >> > Think trains and WW2 submarines. You should expect 80mpg+ when
>>they
>> > >> come
>> > >> > but when will that be? I'll move earlier and go with a straight
>> > >> > diesel and
>> > >> > hope for rapeseed biodiesel. The only way to go with the home is
>> > >> > insulated
>> > >> > concrete forms and geo-thermal radiant heating. Cooling is
>>another
>> > >> > issue.
>> > >> > A nuke powerplant running A/C is the ticket. You have no control
>> > >> > where your
>> > >> > electrons come from but they probably come from coal.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Didn't we have this same discussion in the 70's?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Brad
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On 9/15/06, Saroj Gilbert <saroj at pathfind.net> wrote:
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I hear you on that... as for me... I'm looking to diesel hybrid
>> > >> for my
>> > >> >> next
>> > >> >> car... and currently doing intensive research on how to make my
>>new
>> > >> >> house
>> > >> >> (yet to be built) use as little non-renewable energy as
>>possible...
>> > >> >> quite
>> > >> >> an
>> > >> >> interesting exploration for me... refreshing information that I
>> > >> hadn't
>> > >> >> read
>> > >> >> too much about since I subscribed to Mother Earth News in the
>> > >> >> 70's. Heating
>> > >> >> shouldn't be a problem but dealing with the hot, humid summers
>> > >> will be
>> > >> >> challenging.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Its hard to balance the economics on electricity usage in this
>>area
>> > >> >> (S.E.
>> > >> >> VA) since it is so very low... 6 cents a KW if I remember
>>correctly;
>> > >> >> however
>> > >> >> I feel strongly about it and will do whatever I can... luckily I
>> >work
>> > >> >> out
>> > >> >> of
>> > >> >> my home and the new house will be so close to a lot of services
>> > >> that I
>> > >> >> should be able to ride the bike a lot of places.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Saroj
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >> >> From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
>> > >> >> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > >> >> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:54 AM
>> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Good News - Gas Prices Falling
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Saroj,
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Maybe, I don't agree with all the premises of the article but
>> > >> everything
>> > >> >> does line up for a fall, just not as far as the author suggested.
>> > >> The
>> > >> >> unfortunate repercussion is that it will encourage us to go back
>> > >> to our
>> > >> >> foolish ways. Peak Oil is coming! The folks who have the most
>> > >> oil are
>> > >> >> still the same folks who hate us the most. The two fastest
>> > >> growing oil
>> > >> >> consuming nations, China and India, aren't slowing down. China
>> > >> doesn't
>> > >> >> give
>> > >> >> a shit about anything but China, and they're cutting deals
>> >everywhere
>> > >> >> for
>> > >> >> every commodity. I can't make my jet or our equipment burn less
>> > >> >> fuel, but
>> > >> >> my next car *will *get 50mpg+. Hopefully it won't smell like
>> >shrimp.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Brad
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> On 9/15/06, Saroj Gilbert <saroj at pathfind.net> wrote:
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > That would be good news...
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > >> >> > From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
>> > >> >> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > >> >> > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:23 AM
>> > >> >> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Good News - Gas Prices Falling
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > <http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/home/>
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Thursday, September 14, 2006 - 12:00 AM
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > *.*
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > **
>> > >> >> > *
>> > >> >> > **Analyst predicts plunge in gas prices*
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > *By Kevin G. Hall*
>> > >> >> > *McClatchy Newspapers*
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > WASHINGTON — The recent sharp drop in the global price of crude
>> >oil
>> > >> >> could
>> > >> >> > mark the start of a massive sell-off that returns gasoline
>> > >> prices to
>> > >> >> lows
>> > >> >> > not seen since the late 1990s — perhaps as low as $1.15 a
>> >gallon.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > "All the hurricane flags are flying" in oil markets, said
>>Philip
>> > >> >> Verleger,
>> > >> >> > a
>> > >> >> > noted energy consultant who was a lone voice several years ago
>>in
>> > >> >> warning
>> > >> >> > that oil prices would soar. Now, he says, they appear to be
>>poised
>> > >> >> for a
>> > >> >> > dramatic plunge.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Crude-oil prices have fallen about $14, or roughly 17 percent,
>> >from
>> > >> >> their
>> > >> >> > July 14 peak of $78.40. After falling seven straight days, they
>> > >> rose
>> > >> >> > slightly Wednesday in trading on the New York Mercantile
>> > >> Exchange, to
>> > >> >> > $63.97, partly in reaction to a government report showing fuel
>> > >> >> inventories
>> > >> >> > a
>> > >> >> > bit lower than expected. But the overall price drop is expected
>>to
>> > >> >> > continue,
>> > >> >> > and prices could fall much more in the weeks and months ahead.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Here's why:
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > For most of the past two years, oil prices have risen because
>>the
>> > >> >> world's
>> > >> >> > oil producers have struggled to keep pace with growing demand,
>> > >> >> > particularly
>> > >> >> > from China and India. Spare oil-production capacity grew so
>>tight
>> > >> that
>> > >> >> > market players feared that any disruption to oil production
>>could
>> > >> >> create
>> > >> >> > shortages.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Fear of disruption focused on fighting in Nigeria, escalating
>> > >> tensions
>> > >> >> > over
>> > >> >> > Iran's nuclear program, violence between Israel and Lebanon
>>that
>> > >> might
>> > >> >> > spread to oil-producing neighbors, and the prospect that
>> >hurricanes
>> > >> >> might
>> > >> >> > topple oil facilities in the Gulf of Mexico.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Oil traders bet that such worrisome developments would drive up
>> >the
>> > >> >> future
>> > >> >> > price of oil. Oil is traded in contracts for future delivery,
>>and
>> > >> >> > companies
>> > >> >> > that take physical delivery of oil are just a small part of
>>total
>> > >> >> trading.
>> > >> >> > Large pension and commodities funds are the big traders and
>> >they're
>> > >> >> > seeking
>> > >> >> > profits. They've sunk $105 billion or more into oil futures in
>> > >> recent
>> > >> >> > years,
>> > >> >> > according to Verleger. Their bets that oil prices would rise in
>> >the
>> > >> >> future
>> > >> >> > bid up the price of oil.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > That, in turn, led users of oil to create stockpiles as
>>cushions
>> > >> >> against
>> > >> >> > supply disruptions and even higher future prices. Now
>>inventories
>> > >> >> of oil
>> > >> >> > are
>> > >> >> > approaching 1990 levels.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > But many of the conditions that drove investors to bid up oil
>> > >> >> prices are
>> > >> >> > ebbing. Tensions over Israel, Lebanon and Nigeria are easing.
>>The
>> > >> >> > hurricane
>> > >> >> > season has presented no threat so far to the Gulf of Mexico.
>>The
>> > >> U.S.
>> > >> >> peak
>> > >> >> > summer driving season is over, so gasoline demand is falling.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > With fear of supply disruptions ebbing, oil prices began
>>sliding.
>> > >> With
>> > >> >> oil
>> > >> >> > inventories high, refiners that turn oil into gasoline are
>> >expected
>> > >> to
>> > >> >> cut
>> > >> >> > production. As refiners cut production, oil companies
>>increasingly
>> > >> >> risk
>> > >> >> > getting stuck with excess oil supplies. There's already
>>anecdotal
>> > >> >> evidence
>> > >> >> > of oil companies chartering tankers to store excess oil.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > All this is turning financial markets increasingly bearish on
>>oil.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > "If we continue to build inventories, and if we have a warm
>>winter
>> > >> >> like
>> > >> >> we
>> > >> >> > had last winter, you could see a large fall in the price of
>>oil,"
>> > >> said
>> > >> >> > Gary
>> > >> >> > Pokoik, who manages Hedge Ventures Energy in Los Angeles, an
>> >energy
>> > >> >> hedge
>> > >> >> > fund. "I think there is still a lot of risk in the market."
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > As it stands now, the recent oil-price slump has brought the
>> > >> national
>> > >> >> > average for a gallon of unleaded gasoline down to $2.59,
>> > >> according to
>> > >> >> the
>> > >> >> > AAA motor club. In the Seattle area, prices per gallon have
>> > >> fallen to
>> > >> >> > $2.856
>> > >> >> > currently from $3.071 a month ago, a decline of 7 percent,
>> > >> >> according to
>> > >> >> > AAA.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Should oil traders fear that this downward price spiral will
>>get
>> > >> worse
>> > >> >> and
>> > >> >> > run for the exits by selling off their futures contracts,
>>Verleger
>> > >> >> said,
>> > >> >> > it's not unthinkable that oil prices could return to $15 or
>>less
>>a
>> > >> >> barrel,
>> > >> >> > at least temporarily. That could mean gasoline prices as low as
>> > >> $1.15
>> > >> >> per
>> > >> >> > gallon.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Other experts won't guess at a floor price, but they agree that
>>a
>> > >> race
>> > >> >> to
>> > >> >> > the bottom could break out.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > "The market may test levels here that are too low to be
>> >sustained,"
>> > >> >> said
>> > >> >> > Clay Seigle, an analyst at Cambridge Energy Research
>>Associates,
>>a
>> > >> >> > consultancy in Boston.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > On Monday, the oil-producing cartel OPEC hinted that if prices
>> >fall
>> > >> >> > precipitously, OPEC members would cut production to lift them.
>>But
>> > >> >> that
>> > >> >> > would take time.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > "That takes six to nine months. If we don't have a really cold
>> > >> winter
>> > >> >> here
>> > >> >> > [creating a demand for oil], prices will fall. Literally, you
>> >don't
>> > >> >> know
>> > >> >> > where the floor is," Verleger said. "In a market like this, if
>> > >> things
>> > >> >> > start
>> > >> >> > falling ... prices could take you back to the 1999 levels. It
>>has
>> > >> >> nothing
>> > >> >> > to
>> > >> >> > do with production."
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > <http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/general/copyright.html>
>> > >> >> > __________________________________________________
>> > >> >> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > __________________________________________________
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>> > >> >> __________________________________________________
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>> > >> >> __________________________________________________
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