[Rhodes22-list] etiquett
Bill Effros
bill at effros.com
Sun Feb 18 14:48:10 EST 2007
funny.
Bill Effros
Arthur H. Czerwonky wrote:
> Jb,
> I have seen Ed use IMHO, yet Ed has no humble opinions.
> Art
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: JbTek <j.bulfer at jbtek.com>
>> Sent: Feb 18, 2007 12:49 PM
>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] etiquett
>>
>> Bill Effros,
>> I am also new to this type of conversation so thanks for any pointers.
>> I've been trying to fiqure out what BTW is.
>>
>> Jb
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:40 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>
>>
>>
>>> Sorry, Jb,
>>>
>>> We try to call people by the names they sign unless we are taunting
>>> them. I would call you Jb.
>>>
>>> The Jay I mentioned was Jay on Long Beach Island, NJ with whom I try to
>>> spend an hour on the water on Father's Day every year.
>>>
>>> Bill Effros
>>>
>>> (See how easy it is to get off sailing topics on this list...)
>>>
>>> PS -- In terms of computer etiquette I have not changed the subject line
>>> on this post because I expect it to die quickly, and digest people might
>>> want to follow. It's a judgment call, but as a newbie you might wonder
>>> why everyone just doesn't change the subject line every time they
>>> realize they have switched subjects.
>>>
>>> PPS -- I always sign my full name because there are enough Bills in the
>>> world so that at any given time there is likely to be more than one on
>>> the list. Rummy doesn't have to do that, although many people never
>>> figure out his given name.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> JbTek wrote:
>>>
>>>> yes, I follow
>>>> Jb
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:29 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Wally,
>>>>>
>>>>> There are a lot of newbies currently on the list trying to figure out
>>>>> how to configure their boats. Most of them do not seem to possess your
>>>>> level of sophistication. I know what you mean, but I don't think they
>>>>> necessarily do.
>>>>>
>>>>> In light air, when my wife is not on board, I also sit on the lee side
>>>>> to create heel and go faster. I believe this is because there is less
>>>>> wetted surface when you heel an r-22. But I believe there is also a
>>>>> shorter waterline than there is on a bow-heavy upright r-22 so your top
>>>>> speed in winds capable of driving you at hull speed is less when
>>>>>
>> heeled.
>>
>>>>> I don't think you can plane when heeled. Give me some good wind and I
>>>>> can plane upright at more than the hull speed of the boat every time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay -- are you paying attention? You always have enough wind. Father's
>>>>> Day 07? (If you try this out before I get there you can't use your
>>>>> paddle wheel speedometer to determine boat speed--we must use a GPS.
>>>>>
>> The
>>
>>>>> boat doesn't have enough power to go through the water at more than
>>>>>
>> 6.25
>>
>>>>> kph, but it can go over land at 7-11 kph.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>
>>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill, First as you know I do like IMF.... My original post stated you
>>>>>> may have to reef sooner with IMF than standard. I wasn't really
>>>>>> commenting about reefing sail shape or configurations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One thing you need to consider is the cut of the sails unfurled and/or
>>>>>> reefed. This is just important as the size. To my eye it looks like
>>>>>> the belly on most IMF sails (ours included) is higher than standard
>>>>>> main and perhaps a little further aft. With standard main you can
>>>>>> further tweak with downhaul, halyard, and cunningham controls.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also my boat likes a little heel and in light air I sit on lee side to
>>>>>> create heel....and I go faster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wally
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:51:09 -0500
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jim,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you must add the optimal heeling angle to your equations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since the R-22 is designed for 0 degree angle of heel, none of the
>>>>>>> weight aloft matters to the angle of heel, whether a standard or an
>>>>>>> IMF is deployed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With a 175 Genny the boat has so much more sail than it needs that it
>>>>>>> can always reach hull speed in 10 kts. of wind--the only significant
>>>>>>> variable is the skill of the captain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 0-5 degrees of heel it is possible to bring the boat on plane. As
>>>>>>> the heel becomes greater I don't believe you can make the boat
>>>>>>> plane--at least I've never heard of anyone doing it while heeled
>>>>>>>
>> over.
>>
>>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jim Connolly wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the difference between IMF and conventional from
>>>>>>>>
>> a
>>
>>>>>>>> weight distribution standpoint is two fold:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. The furling tube which is negligible and the weight of the mast
>>>>>>>> extrusion, heavier than standard. Both of these are fixed weights
>>>>>>>> (fixed
>>>>>>>> height above deck with the mast raised in sailing position) and can
>>>>>>>>
>> be
>>
>>>>>>>> approximated by a weight "x" at the midpoint of the mast (i.e.,
>>>>>>>> center of
>>>>>>>> gravity or CG).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. The weight of the sail (less than conventional, because it is
>>>>>>>> smaller).
>>>>>>>> Since it reefs and furls on a vertical roller, the CG of the sail
>>>>>>>> also stays
>>>>>>>> at the same height above the deck. The center of effort (CE) of the
>>>>>>>> furling
>>>>>>>> sail will move down and forward as the sail rolls into the mast.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Net effect, furling the IMF lowers the center of effort and not the
>>>>>>>> center
>>>>>>>> of gravity of the mast and sail combination, while furling the
>>>>>>>> conventional
>>>>>>>> sail lowers both the CG and CE. The CG of the conventional mast/sail
>>>>>>>> assembly is lowered by the weight of the sail, which is not likely a
>>>>>>>> significant part of the whole.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It seems then to come down to the additional weight of the IMF
>>>>>>>> assembly with
>>>>>>>> sail vs. the conventional mast and sail. I don't know this, but I am
>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>> somebody here does. Likely windage of the thicker mast extrusion
>>>>>>>> might be a
>>>>>>>> factor in some wind conditions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For me, convenience trumps all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jim Connolly
>>>>>>>> s/v Inisheer
>>>>>>>> '85 recycled '03
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>>>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill Effros
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:55 AM
>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wally,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Comparing "reefing" on standard sails vs. IMF sails is very hard to
>>>>>>>> do when
>>>>>>>> discussing among sailors some of whom have never even seen an IMF.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Reef Points" result in noticeable changes in sail size. The IMF is
>>>>>>>> infinitely adjustable. I often adjust my sail in increments of 5% of
>>>>>>>> total
>>>>>>>> sail size. I suspect most IMF sailors change the size of their sails
>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>> of using the traveler. We don't think of it as "reefing" -- it is an
>>>>>>>> adjustment the sailor can quickly make in response to changing
>>>>>>>> conditions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The extra weight of the mast is insignificant. Remember that your
>>>>>>>> sail is
>>>>>>>> larger, adding weight aloft compared to the smaller IMF sail. But,
>>>>>>>> since the
>>>>>>>> boat is designed to be sailed upright, and can easily be trimmed to
>>>>>>>> sail
>>>>>>>> upright, the difference in performance due to weight is probably no
>>>>>>>> greater
>>>>>>>> in an IMF boat than the difference of carrying an extra bottle of
>>>>>>>> rum. Or
>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I carry my extra sail on the Genoa instead of the main sail. Both
>>>>>>>>
>> are
>>
>>>>>>>> infinitely adjustable while single handing. When conditions change,
>>>>>>>> I change
>>>>>>>> the set of my sails, all by myself, so easily that even a lazy
>>>>>>>> sailor will
>>>>>>>> do it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the biggest surprise about the IMF is how well it works
>>>>>>>> mechanically. The sail and mast are made for each other. There is no
>>>>>>>> compromise here, and it is easy to extend and retract the sail under
>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>> conditions. My wife enjoys doing it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Our harbor is busy on weekends with a very narrow neck, rocks all
>>>>>>>> over the
>>>>>>>> place, and a 10 foot tidal variation every 6 hours. It is
>>>>>>>> irresponsible to
>>>>>>>> sail into the harbor if you've got a motor, and most experienced
>>>>>>>> larger boat
>>>>>>>> sailors take their sails down just outside the neck, and motor to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>> their
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> moorings. We turn on the motor and don't even stop while we retract
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>> our
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> sails. When my wife sees other wives trying to control flopping
>>>>>>>> sails inside
>>>>>>>> lazy jacks she shakes her head in disbelief. When other wives see my
>>>>>>>> wife
>>>>>>>> roll up our sail they ask their husbands why they don't have sails
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>> like
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> ours.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bill,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well I may be wrong here .....I guess it would depend upon how much
>>>>>>>>> smaller the sail is verses the extra weight of mast. Way back when
>>>>>>>>> (on the sailnet list) there was discussion about this. In my
>>>>>>>>> opinion even if the mast weighed the same you still might need to
>>>>>>>>> reef sooner with IMF. Pure speculation on my part and I will admit
>>>>>>>>> I may be totally wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The R22 is small enough to be quite sensitive to subtle changes in
>>>>>>>>> weight and trim adjustments. You pay a price with IMF in mast
>>>>>>>>> weight, sail cut, no downhaul, no cunnungham, no battens (except
>>>>>>>>> for the new rev). If you know how to use all these controls you can
>>>>>>>>> create a much flatter sail. You would be surprised at the
>>>>>>>>> difference adding a vang made even with IMF. I could still flatten
>>>>>>>>> the sail enough to make a big difference ...sailing much flatter,
>>>>>>>>> fast, and higher into the wind.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Everything is a trade off and for me the pros for IMF are well
>>>>>>>>> worth any cons.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wally
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:30 -0500
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wally,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why would a smaller sail need to reef sooner?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe, There are some performance trade offs with IMF. The sail is
>>>>>>>>>>> smaller and I would think an IMF R22 would need to reef sooner
>>>>>>>>>>> but I am just guessing. That extra weight aloft must have some
>>>>>>>>>>> effect on balance.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Wally
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Joseph Hadzima <josef508 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:45:37 -0800 (PST)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've seen some other cool sail systems, some with sail covers so
>>>>>>>>>>>> you only need to zip it closed. Several replace the slot in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> main with a track system so even a kid could hoist the main, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> it drops into right into the sail cover.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A BIG advantage of the IMF (I believe) is the unlimited reef
>>>>>>>>>>>> points. Another is that is remains protected in the mast during
>>>>>>>>>>>> transport.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've only heard one mild complaint that the IMF mast is thicker,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and thus hinders pointing performance a little, but like Stan
>>>>>>>>>>>> says there are trade-offs ... unlimited easy to set reef points,
>>>>>>>>>>>> or slightly better pointing with the possibility you'd need to
>>>>>>>>>>>> bring down the main completely because you couldn't depower
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> enough.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And I only had a minor problem with lazy Jacks where one of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> lines got wrapped around part of the sail, and we had to lower
>>>>>>>>>>>> and raise it again. But this was aboard a 65 foot Schooner with
>>>>>>>>>>>> gaft. So it was a little more trouble than if it was a Rhodes
>>>>>>>>>>>> with lazy jacks :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Speaking of the A28 video ... I like the piston powered Hoyt Jib
>>>>>>>>>>>> boom for down wind sailing .. very nice feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Notice it's a working Jib and NOT 175 gennoa!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --- "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> While viewing the AE28 video, I was impressed with the ease
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with which the owner was handling the main. He was using a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack system (installation manual at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.harken.com/pdf/4058.pdf.) At West Marine, the small
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack is about $200.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone ever used the Harken Lazy Jack on an R22 main sail?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does it interfere with boom movement? Does it jam easily?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know, with IMF, you have no need for it. I still haven't been
>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to justify the cost of the new IMF mast & hardware on our
>>>>>>>>>>>>> R22.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just thinking that the Lazy Jack looked interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe run the control lines (downhaul &
>>>>>>>>>>>>> halyard) back to the front of the cockpit, next to the pop-top,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> opposite to Genoa furling line. Comments?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more..then map the
>>>>>>>>>>> best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by
>>>>>>>>> Experian.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOO
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TERAVERAGE
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>
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