[Rhodes22-list] Flat Tax Anyone? What is fair Dave(political rant)

[Bill Effros]

Same question, Brad:  How does the flat tax work?

Bill Effros

Brad Haslett wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>
> "If the system steals all their wealth then I guess those guys won't 
> bother
> to earn their
> vast sums of money."
>
> Precisely!  That is exactly what happened when marginal tax rates were in
> the 70 to 90 per cent range.  That, and people got involved in 
> sophisticated
> tax dodging schemes.  Our current code is far more complicated than
> necessary because of all the tinkering done over the years to achieve
> various social aims.  Under a flat tax, the top 20% of earners will still
> pay over 80% of the total tax collected. Those 10,000 square foot 
> McMansions
> won't be subsidized and driving a leased Hummer to work won't make much
> sense either.  JFK said it best when he explained why he was cutting
> marginal rates, "a rising tide raises all boats."
>
> If the ultimate goal of a nations tax system is to achieve equal 
> incomes for
> all,  you get Cuba, North Korea, and a few other third world countries.
> Every other industrialized nation interested in growing their economy has
> given-up on such foolishness.
>
> Brad
>
>
> On 1/14/07, Geankoplis <napoli68 at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dave,
>>        There seems too much hand wringing about the unfair taxes, the
>> crushing burden of those taxes on the wealthy.  I agree with you, isn't
>> wealth the reward?  Didn't the system benefit those wealthy people?  If
>> that
>> system exist to reward these people then why shouldn't they pay more to
>> support it?  They have more to loose than the little guy.  If the system
>> steals all their wealth then I guess those guys won't bother to earn 
>> their
>> vast sums of money.  People can complain all they want but their actions
>> speak louder than words.  If the amount of taxes someone pays is more
>> important than what they make, let them work minimum wage, an obvious
>> luxurious level of existence that should be suppressed as it is more 
>> money
>> than someone really needs.
>>
>> Chris the tax payer
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of 
>> DCLewis1 at aol.com
>> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 8:29 PM
>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Flat Tax Anyone? Tossing ball back to
>> Slim(political rant)
>>
>>
>> Interesting that Ed thinks 36% tax is an oppressive tax rate (and that's
>> the
>> max rate, not on your gross, its after deductions).  Look at the
>> roads  you
>> travel, the ATC, national security, public health, the commerce
>> infrastructure, etc - seems like a one time good deal to me.
>>
>> For those of you who worry that you're paying school taxes for other
>> peoples
>> kids, ask yourself who is going to be paying into the Social
>> Security  fund
>> on your behalf 10 years from now - it's those kids.  You better hope
>> they're
>> educated and have good jobs, their Soc Security deposits are
>> going  straight
>>
>> to you.
>>
>> Further, while Ed makes a good point regarding founders that begin and
>> develop companies, I suggest they are likely a small fraction of the 1%
>> under
>> discussion.  I would encourage you to consider the real 1% - consider 
>> the
>> Grasso'
>> s, who didn't start, found, begin or develop anything he just got
>> the  NYSE
>> to
>> give him an egregious pay package.  Or Nardelli of Home Depot,
>> or  Skilling
>> of Enron, or Conrad Black accused of looting the Tribune, or the
>> guys  that
>> looted Tyco, or McKinnel of Pfizer, or Immelt of GE, or  Waggoner of  
>> GM,
>> or
>> Ford
>> of Ford......  Lets cut out the mythology and deal with cases,  and 
>> there
>> are
>> a ton of cases, and in all those cases the MBAs that won the water  
>> cooler
>> wars stepped up to run major corporations and made out like bandits -
>> that's
>> the real story and that's the real 1%.  I can't think of a single  
>> S&P 500
>> corporation that's run by it founder.  And I respectfully  suggest that
>> the
>> MBAs
>> that win the water cooler wars are no more entitled to  special tax
>> consideration by society than anyone else - they are not founders,  they
>> are
>> watch
>> standers, and there is a difference.
>>
>> Regarding founders: If you do found and develop a public company, you 
>> make
>> out like a bandit even with the current tax code - and I don't begrudge
>> that
>>
>> one  bit.  But you reasonably make out so incredibly well that even 
>> after
>> taxes
>> you are incredibly well off.  Consider Phil Knight, the guy who founded
>> Nike
>> - I think he's the 48th richest guy in the US even after the current
>> taxes,
>>
>> and that's fine but he doesn't need a change in the tax code to help him
>> out
>>
>> he's doing very well thank you.  Consider Bill Gates, I think the 
>> richest
>> guy in the US, money up the gazoo - under the current tax code.  Michael
>> Dell,
>> absolutely not suffering at all - under the present tax code.  None  of
>> the
>> founder types I've mentioned need special consideration from the
>> tax  code,
>> they
>> are all doing very very well by any standard - and I don't begrudge  
>> their
>> doing well, but neither do I feel sympathy for the tax they pay.   
>> They've
>> got
>> it made and some of the reasons they have it made is the larger  society
>> respects and enforces their intellectual property rights - at a real  
>> cost
>> to the
>> larger society - the larger society facilitates their production  
>> efforts
>> with
>> roads, power, terminals and infrastructure and security of all  
>> sorts, and
>> generally enables the commerce that they profit from so greatly -
>> so  maybe
>> they
>> should pay more for that increased support.  If that increased  support
>> weren't
>> there, they'd have nothing or very much less.  The customs  inspector
>> standing on the dock looking for counterfeit Nikes is not paid by Phil
>> Knight, but
>> Phil Knight benefits directly from that customs inspector's  activities,
>> maybe
>> Phil Knight should pay more tax than the rest of us.   Maybe Bill Gates
>> should
>> pay more taxes, the US Government is investing time and  manpower trying
>> to
>> mitigate software pirating efforts in Asia and around the  world, a 
>> direct
>> significant beneficiary is - Bill Gates.  I don't begrudge  any of these
>> guys
>> their wealth, but I also think they, more than some day worker  in South
>> Carolina,
>> are constructively exploiting, using, and benefiting from the  full 
>> range
>> of
>>
>> government services and in consideration they should pay more  taxes.
>>
>> Dave
>>
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