[Rhodes22-list] Iraq-my continuing rant!

[TN Rhodey]

I do admire the "frontier" spirit that made our country great and I still
have faith in the next generation.

I am not saying we allowed the Nazis to overrun Europe, I apologize for poor
choice of words. I am saying we didn't do anything to stop them until we
were attacked.To me we need to quit having "conflicts". Either declare war
and go all out or not. Our leadership is letting us down more than the
people....then again we are the ones that elect them.

The Desert Storm coalition was formed to get Iraq out of Kuwait not take
over Iraq. Bush kept his word, It is hard to say if things would have gone
any better or not. The Kurds, Shites, and Sunni would still have the same
issues. We also would have pissed off all the Middle Eastern countries that
were part of the coalition.  This is an age old problem and we will not be
able to solve.

I was all for going into Afghanistan and rooting out the Taliban and Bin
Laden. We had Iraq contained and our troops were ready to go at a moments
notice. Iraq was not a threat. These same troops would have been available
to go into Iran if needed. Iran was and is a much greater threat than Iraq.


We need to figure out how to teach the world a lesson without blowing things
up.

How about the latest from Cheney.... VP is NOT part of the Executive branch.
This is the same guy that wouldn't provide documents to congress citing
Executive exemption. . What a clown!

Wally

On 6/27/07, David Culp <daculp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Wally:
>
> You're right-we were dragged kicking and screaming into WW2. but I think
> it
> speaks well of our people that we are generally not war-mongers and tend
> toward isolationism, especially in that time period.  I don't think the
> "greatest generation" in the US allowed the overrunning of Europe.  I
> believe that it was the Europeans themselves who allowed this by their
> acquiescence to Hitler's early demands.
>
> I was referring to the character of our citizens in earlier times.  The
> "greatest generation" survived a great depression and then went on to the
> greatest military victory in history.  I wouldn't want to repeat any of
> those events nor any other tragic events in our history, but I do admire
> those who successfully navigated that part of our history with their vigor
> and courage.  Also, the generations before them who expanded the country
> against all kinds of perils.  I wouldn't want to see any people savaged
> and
> displaced as we did the American Indians, but again,  I admire those
> individuals with the sand to have conquered a new territory against such
> odds.  I wonder if this sort of spirit and courage is still a part of the
> average American's character?  I have no doubt about our brave military
> members, but what about the average Joe?
>
> Nuking Afghanistan....
>
> Yes, certain remote parts where Bin Laden might have been found should
> have
> been laid to waste with tactical weapons.  I don't know if it would have
> been effective, but we should always pursue our enemies with that kind of
> vigor because if nothing else, it is a warning to other legitimate
> governments not to support terrorists.  I don't believe that terrorists in
> their own right can be very effective against us without the monetary and
> security support of a sponsoring state.  Iran is more then willing to fill
> this role.  These middle eastern countries believe we will always take the
> easy way out and quit when the going gets tough.  So far, we haven't done
> much to prove them wrong.  As far as the populated cities in Afghanistan
> go,
> I would have used conventional weapons depending on the strategy.  I think
> we set the precedent with Japan in WW2 not to use nukes unless the
> argument
> can be made as to the number of American lives that can be saved as a
> result.  I don't think a major invasion of Afghanistan was ever really
> planned, so we couldn't use the nuke argument against civilians.  We
> should
> have concentrated on Afghanistan to the point where possibly Bin Laden was
> killed, the regime was changed and then the populated areas occupied and
> secured.  This would have had the added benefit of stopping most of the
> poppy growing which would also be very advantageous to the world.  This
> would/should have taken a declaration of war which is a lot harder for the
> politicians to run away from and can be legally justified because we were
> attacked.
>
> Instead, we have the son trying to vindicate the father using faulty
> intelligence and poor planning to invade and conquer a country which was
> basically bottled up and where we have no legal right to be in the first
> place.  Bush 41 is mostly to blame for the Iraq mess IMO.  He really has
> no
> excuse having fought in WW2 to have left a dictator in power once that
> dictator had crossed his borders and invaded another country.  This is
> what
> Hitler did and in Chamberlain-type fashion, 41 let him get away with it.
> Instead, we resorted to sanctions which do nothing but make people even
> madder at you and more resolute.  41 was more worried about his
> "coalition"
> then the long-term welfare of our nation.  The justification was there in
> GW1 for pacifying  Iraq and we didn't do it.
>
> I am a devout UN-hater and blame the concept of the UN for most of our
> problems in the last 60 years.  Cases in point:
>
> Korea-Communists still in power to this day after invading a sovereign
> country.  Have acquired nuclear weapons which regardless of what they say,
> they intend to keep.  We went in as part of the UN coalition and the job
> was
> not finished because we were/are deathly afraid of the Chinese.  No end in
> sight.
>
> Viet Nam-Can't really blame the UN for that one.  We were deathly afraid
> of
> Red China, so no saturation bombing of the North, no mining of Haiphong
> harbor or other military strategies which I believe could have resulted in
> victory.
>
> Gulf War 1-Again, part of a UN coalition that just didn't quite get the
> job
> done, though we had the means.   Lead to the present conflict.
>
> Gulf War 2-US and Britain acting as the principal agents of the UN in
> enforcing a UN resolution.  No end in sight.
>
> Numerous failures in other areas in the Middle East and Africa, notably
> Palestine.
>
> We must be getting some great intelligence from spying on all the foreign
> missions at the UN, otherwise, why in the world would we remain a member
> of
> such an impotent organization?
>
> OK... I don't know how I morphed into dissing the UN in this discussion
> either, but now "you sonsabitches know how I feel"-George C. Scott,
> opening
> scene in "Patton".
>
> Seriously... Just remember the words of Napoleon:
>
> "If you want to be victorious in war... always fight it against a
> coalition."
>
> David Culp
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It seems to me the some people forget that we were dragged kicking and
> screaming into both the World Wars,  Have Congress declare war and then we
> can actually see what happens rather than speculate. The greatest
> generation
> allowed Hitler to over run Europe and set up concentration camps. It
> wasn't
> until the attack on Pearl Harbor that we finally joined in. I am sure this
> country would rise up and support a war it it was actually declared to
> protect our allies or our National security. I do agree that there is much
> wrong with this country however the good old days may depend on
> perspective.
> I don't think many African Americans would want to go back to an even more
> racist society. The 30s are not my version of the good times.....I do
> agree
> that the moral compass is out of whack.
>
> Do you really think we should have nuked Afghanistan? I thought we were
> trying to free them of the Taliban. Once we level their country do we tell
> them they are now "free"? We would have looked pretty silly dropping nukes
> and then having Bin laden show up alive in Iran or Pakistan. The 911 group
> was from Saudi Arabia....do we nuke them as well?
>
> I do agree we need to do away with PAC money.
>
> Wally
>
> On 6/26/07, David Culp <daculp at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting observations...  I'd rather talk about sailing but here are
> > mine
> > for others to contemplate:
> >
> > I envy Stan in that he and his generation were truly the greatest and
> > quite
> > frankly, our country is in decline and has been since after Korea.  Very
> > slowly at first but then accelerating after Viet Nam.  I worry about the
> > kind of country that my children and grandchildren will be growing up
> in.
> > If the present list of candidates for President in either of the two
> > parties
> > is any indication, my worries are well-founded.  However, one person
> > cannot
> > save a nation; it takes the body politic to do so.
> >
> > I listened to a fellow the other day who was advocating legalized
> > prostitution in our country-seemed to think that it would alleviate a
> lot
> > of
> > problems and generate more tax revenue.  It occurred to me that we
> already
> > have legalized prostitution in this country with approximately 525
> > "whores"
> > legally working on Capitol Hill and literally hundreds of "Johns"
> legally
> > working on K Street in Washington DC.  This is what your government and
> > ultimately your country have come to-politicians sold out to the highest
> > bidder.  This cannot be what the original framers of our Constitution
> and
> > our country had in mind and is certainly not worth dying for.... Is
> > it?  It
> > is time to stop all lobbying by any individual, corporation or union in
> > our
> > government because it renders the will of the average voter to be less
> > effective and it is the average voter's children who die on the
> > battlefield.
> >
> > According to the Constitution, wars are declared by Congress.  We are
> not
> > in
> > a declared war, so therefore I think that it helps to answer the
> question
> > why the American people are not engaged and politicians are abandoning
> the
> > cause.  When you go to war, you have to have a culmination of those
> > efforts
> > in some form or another.  Just think if you went to a sports event and
> > suddenly the referees called the whole thing off in the third quarter
> with
> > no victor declared.  No one would be interested in coming to the event
> > again
> > and only the most dedicated of players would show up to get in a good
> > practice session.  This is what has happened in Korea, Viet Nam (our
> team
> > left the field) and probably Iraq.  Bush thought he was going to fight a
> > short "cable TV" war with great ratings and vindicate his father all at
> > the
> > same time.  Unfortunately, the American people are now tuning out and
> > regrettably we have over 3500 dead and thousands wounded.  And for what?
> > What have we accomplished?
> >
> > In war you must have closure one way or the other.  Germany and Japan
> are
> > both allies today, yet they were mortal enemies 60 years ago.  The
> > difference is that there was a final score.  We won.  Our goals were
> clear
> > and our fight was with the peoples of both of those countries.  We broke
> > both countries militarily and we broke their citizens will to continue
> the
> > fight.  We have not done that since.  The referees (UN) and the
> > politicians
> > keep screwing up the matches I suppose.
> >
> > The only thing in my opinion that can save the Iraq campaign now is for
> > Israel to attack Iran.  They most certainly would retaliate against
> > American
> > forces in Iraq who will grant over-flight and other support for the
> > bombing
> > missions and this would in some ways vindicate the ill advised decision
> to
> > go there in the first place.  Why else would two full carrier battle
> > groups
> > be prowling the Gulf right now?  I'm sure the present administration is
> > hoping for this very thing.  Iran is the true enemy in the Middle East
> and
> > their leadership should be eliminated and the civilian population
> > decimated
> > to the point where their spirit is broken and they no longer wish to
> fight
> > anyone.  This is how we won in Germany and Japan, unless you happen to
> > believe that the photos of the bomb-leveled cities of Germany were faked
> > or
> > the two atomic bombs dropped in Japan only killed Japanese sailors and
> > soldiers.  The next President who tells me that our fight is not with
> the
> > "people" of a certain country is the next President who should be
> > impeached
> > immediately, as a war can only be fought between two "peoples".
> > Ultimately, we the people either elect the leaders or allow the
> dictators
> > to
> > remain who take us to war.
> >
> > For example:  Afghanistan should have been leveled after 9/11 including
> > the
> > use of tactical nukes in the mountains to get Bin Laden.  The government
> > (the people) allowed the Taliban to remain who supported Bin Laden, who
> > attacked us on our own soil.  If you are shaking your head "no" over
> this
> > observation, then my friend, you are not prepared for real war.  I would
> > say
> > that America and Americans overall no longer have the stomach and are
> not
> > prepared for real war which I say again.... Is a struggle between
> peoples.
> > The reality is that Coalition forces are still being attacked and poppy
> > production which is Afghanistan's most important export is the highest
> on
> > record.  So much for victory there.
> >
> > Does that mean that I like the idea of war... with women and children or
> > other innocents being killed?  No, certainly not, not in this country or
> > any
> > other.  But this is the true cost of true war.  And when a country's
> > citizens tire of paying the true cost of war, they will take a different
> > tack just as Japan and Germany did after WW2 and just as we will in Iraq
> > though we tend to change course under far less devastating circumstances
> > which over time may ultimately be our downfall.
> >
> > David Culp
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > While we are choosing the cut of our next mainsail, kids are still dying
> > in
> > Iraq.  Mostly, they are killed from IEDs, enhanced with C4 from Iran
> > (semtex
> > too), but other sources as well. Sorry too spoil your otherwise pleasant
> > day
> > but twenty-year-old kids have their asses at risk as we speak, while in
> > cyberspace, we mentally masturbate about defending your right to bitch
> > about
> > why they are there, OR, we debate the cut of our mainsail.  Go sailing
> on
> > the 4th of July and forget about all that died to make that holiday
> > happen.
> > I can't blame you for not having a clue about what is  happening in Iraq
> > right now, why should you care when there is so much more interesting
> news
> > happening.  Did Paris eat a snatch in prison?  Inquiring minds want to
> > know!  I don't know what your plans on the 4th are but I'm taking the
> > CoraShen out and flying the flag.  Why can't we all get along?  The
> > Germans
> > just wanted a little territory and a few less Jews.  No problem there.
> > Right?  Sorry for spoiling an otherwise great sail but wake up
> > folks!  Your
> > weekend sailing satisfaction is not guaranteed!  The war that is nothing
> > more than a bumper sticker might just blow-up right in your face.  Happy
> > 4th!  (I'll be gone until the 6th of July so the world is your
> > responsibility.  Good Luck!
> >
> > Brad
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