[Rhodes22-list] Iraq-It Is Still There

[Brad Haslett]

Wally,

Just enough time for one more e-mail before the, uh, fan starts running.  I
agree with you, nuking nations and cultures that we have 'issues' with is
not the answer.  My father never talked much about his WW2 experiences, but
he did develop empathy for the Germans during his short occupation duty
after a year of slogging through France.  I remember his comments that he
made on several occasions, "any group of good people can be led astray by
bad leadership."  The images of the Iraqi people lining-up to vote, at great
personal risk, is enough to convince me that given the right leadership they
can self govern.  Iran is a seriously problem and has been for decades.
Perhaps David should visit with one of his co-workers (who I've mentioned on
the list before) for some perspective on the Iranian people. The leadership
is absolutely nuts and scary if we take their words seriously.  I do.  No
one listened to Hitler's rants in the 20's and ignored the threat in the
30's.  I hope we don't repeat that mistake.

Brad


On 6/27/07, TN Rhodey <tnrhodey at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It seems to me the some people forget that we were dragged kicking and
> screaming into both the World Wars,  Have Congress declare war and then we
> can actually see what happens rather than speculate. The greatest
> generation
> allowed Hitler to over run Europe and set up concentration camps. It
> wasn't
> until the attack on Pearl Harbor that we finally joined in. I am sure this
> country would rise up and support a war it it was actually declared to
> protect our allies or our National security. I do agree that there is much
> wrong with this country however the good old days may depend on
> perspective.
> I don't think many African Americans would want to go back to an even more
> racist society. The 30s are not my version of the good times.....I do
> agree
> that the moral compass is out of whack.
>
> Do you really think we should have nuked Afghanistan? I thought we were
> trying to free them of the Taliban. Once we level their country do we tell
> them they are now "free"? We would have looked pretty silly dropping nukes
> and then having Bin laden show up alive in Iran or Pakistan. The 911 group
> was from Saudi Arabia....do we nuke them as well?
>
> I do agree we need to do away with PAC money.
>
> Wally
>
> On 6/26/07, David Culp <daculp at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting observations...  I'd rather talk about sailing but here are
> > mine
> > for others to contemplate:
> >
> > I envy Stan in that he and his generation were truly the greatest and
> > quite
> > frankly, our country is in decline and has been since after Korea.  Very
> > slowly at first but then accelerating after Viet Nam.  I worry about the
> > kind of country that my children and grandchildren will be growing up
> in.
> > If the present list of candidates for President in either of the two
> > parties
> > is any indication, my worries are well-founded.  However, one person
> > cannot
> > save a nation; it takes the body politic to do so.
> >
> > I listened to a fellow the other day who was advocating legalized
> > prostitution in our country-seemed to think that it would alleviate a
> lot
> > of
> > problems and generate more tax revenue.  It occurred to me that we
> already
> > have legalized prostitution in this country with approximately 525
> > "whores"
> > legally working on Capitol Hill and literally hundreds of "Johns"
> legally
> > working on K Street in Washington DC.  This is what your government and
> > ultimately your country have come to-politicians sold out to the highest
> > bidder.  This cannot be what the original framers of our Constitution
> and
> > our country had in mind and is certainly not worth dying for.... Is
> > it?  It
> > is time to stop all lobbying by any individual, corporation or union in
> > our
> > government because it renders the will of the average voter to be less
> > effective and it is the average voter's children who die on the
> > battlefield.
> >
> > According to the Constitution, wars are declared by Congress.  We are
> not
> > in
> > a declared war, so therefore I think that it helps to answer the
> question
> > why the American people are not engaged and politicians are abandoning
> the
> > cause.  When you go to war, you have to have a culmination of those
> > efforts
> > in some form or another.  Just think if you went to a sports event and
> > suddenly the referees called the whole thing off in the third quarter
> with
> > no victor declared.  No one would be interested in coming to the event
> > again
> > and only the most dedicated of players would show up to get in a good
> > practice session.  This is what has happened in Korea, Viet Nam (our
> team
> > left the field) and probably Iraq.  Bush thought he was going to fight a
> > short "cable TV" war with great ratings and vindicate his father all at
> > the
> > same time.  Unfortunately, the American people are now tuning out and
> > regrettably we have over 3500 dead and thousands wounded.  And for what?
> > What have we accomplished?
> >
> > In war you must have closure one way or the other.  Germany and Japan
> are
> > both allies today, yet they were mortal enemies 60 years ago.  The
> > difference is that there was a final score.  We won.  Our goals were
> clear
> > and our fight was with the peoples of both of those countries.  We broke
> > both countries militarily and we broke their citizens will to continue
> the
> > fight.  We have not done that since.  The referees (UN) and the
> > politicians
> > keep screwing up the matches I suppose.
> >
> > The only thing in my opinion that can save the Iraq campaign now is for
> > Israel to attack Iran.  They most certainly would retaliate against
> > American
> > forces in Iraq who will grant over-flight and other support for the
> > bombing
> > missions and this would in some ways vindicate the ill advised decision
> to
> > go there in the first place.  Why else would two full carrier battle
> > groups
> > be prowling the Gulf right now?  I'm sure the present administration is
> > hoping for this very thing.  Iran is the true enemy in the Middle East
> and
> > their leadership should be eliminated and the civilian population
> > decimated
> > to the point where their spirit is broken and they no longer wish to
> fight
> > anyone.  This is how we won in Germany and Japan, unless you happen to
> > believe that the photos of the bomb-leveled cities of Germany were faked
> > or
> > the two atomic bombs dropped in Japan only killed Japanese sailors and
> > soldiers.  The next President who tells me that our fight is not with
> the
> > "people" of a certain country is the next President who should be
> > impeached
> > immediately, as a war can only be fought between two "peoples".
> > Ultimately, we the people either elect the leaders or allow the
> dictators
> > to
> > remain who take us to war.
> >
> > For example:  Afghanistan should have been leveled after 9/11 including
> > the
> > use of tactical nukes in the mountains to get Bin Laden.  The government
> > (the people) allowed the Taliban to remain who supported Bin Laden, who
> > attacked us on our own soil.  If you are shaking your head "no" over
> this
> > observation, then my friend, you are not prepared for real war.  I would
> > say
> > that America and Americans overall no longer have the stomach and are
> not
> > prepared for real war which I say again.... Is a struggle between
> peoples.
> > The reality is that Coalition forces are still being attacked and poppy
> > production which is Afghanistan's most important export is the highest
> on
> > record.  So much for victory there.
> >
> > Does that mean that I like the idea of war... with women and children or
> > other innocents being killed?  No, certainly not, not in this country or
> > any
> > other.  But this is the true cost of true war.  And when a country's
> > citizens tire of paying the true cost of war, they will take a different
> > tack just as Japan and Germany did after WW2 and just as we will in Iraq
> > though we tend to change course under far less devastating circumstances
> > which over time may ultimately be our downfall.
> >
> > David Culp
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > While we are choosing the cut of our next mainsail, kids are still dying
> > in
> > Iraq.  Mostly, they are killed from IEDs, enhanced with C4 from Iran
> > (semtex
> > too), but other sources as well. Sorry too spoil your otherwise pleasant
> > day
> > but twenty-year-old kids have their asses at risk as we speak, while in
> > cyberspace, we mentally masturbate about defending your right to bitch
> > about
> > why they are there, OR, we debate the cut of our mainsail.  Go sailing
> on
> > the 4th of July and forget about all that died to make that holiday
> > happen.
> > I can't blame you for not having a clue about what is  happening in Iraq
> > right now, why should you care when there is so much more interesting
> news
> > happening.  Did Paris eat a snatch in prison?  Inquiring minds want to
> > know!  I don't know what your plans on the 4th are but I'm taking the
> > CoraShen out and flying the flag.  Why can't we all get along?  The
> > Germans
> > just wanted a little territory and a few less Jews.  No problem there.
> > Right?  Sorry for spoiling an otherwise great sail but wake up
> > folks!  Your
> > weekend sailing satisfaction is not guaranteed!  The war that is nothing
> > more than a bumper sticker might just blow-up right in your face.  Happy
> > 4th!  (I'll be gone until the 6th of July so the world is your
> > responsibility.  Good Luck!
> >
> > Brad
> > __________________________________________________
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> >
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