[Rhodes22-list] Define: Lee Helm

Fri Mar 9 11:23:10 EST 2007

Actually a boat doesn't have to be overpowered to have lee helm. If 
tiller pressure is required to keep the boat up toward the wind, you 
have lee helm. In other words if you are sailing and let go of the 
tiller and the boat falls off the wind it is lee helm. If the boat 
comes up into the wind it is weather helm. I believe Stan has said 
that an ideally tuned and balanced R22 will have neutral to slight 
lee helm in light air and will develop slight weather helm in stronger winds.

Mary Lou
1991 R22 Fretless
Rock Hall, MD

At 11:18 AM 3/9/2007, you wrote:
>Bill,
>
>As I understand it, Lee helm is when the boats falls off when overpowered
>such as by a gust of wind.  Weather helm is when the boat comes up into the
>wind.  Lee helm can be a dangerous condition as it tends to put the vessel
>more broadside to the wind and can result in a knockdown.  Weather helm is
>safer as it brings the boat upright and allows you to reset the sails.
>
>Hank
>
>
>On 3/9/07, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>>
>>Slim,
>>
>>How do you define "Lee Helm"?
>>
>>Bill Effros
>>
>>PS -- Far from beating this topic to death, (no pun intended, right?)
>>this is what sailing is really about, and we don't discuss it enough.
>>Every answer is helpful, and many have never been posted previously.
>>
>>Slim wrote:
>> > I've been trying to resist jumping in on this thread because we can beat
>>it
>> > to death, but I've played around a lot with different amounts of board
>>and
>> > different amounts canvas and even of mast rake to try to eliminate the
>> > characteristic lee helm of the Rhodes22 rigged with IMF and 175 and a
>> > diamond board.  I've been able to make some improvements but mainly I've
>> > settled for the fact that lee helm happens, but only in light air and I
>>can
>> > cope with that.  I've found that I rarely drop the board all the way
>>down.
>> > When I'm pointing, it's usually about 3/4 down.  I haven't found that
>>the
>> > board all the way down moves the CLR forward since it doesn't improve my
>>lee
>> > helm.  I also think the faster you go, the less board you
>>need/want.  Even
>> > with the board all the way up there's still a "shoal draft keel" of
>>sorts to
>> > prevent leeway sliding, albeit not as effective.  Sometimes I pull it up
>>to
>> > reduce heeling until I can reduce sail.  Sometimes I'm just lazy.  It's
>> > always up when I'm going downwind.
>> >
>> > I'm a lover not a fighter.  Sorry, I mean I'm a cruiser not a racer, but
>>I
>> > still want to get good performance from my boat.  Every boat's a little
>> > different and every sailor has individual goals so it boils down to
>> > experimentation and fine tuning, but most importantly it's the fun
>>factor
>> > and the comfort factor--and you're the captain--so you get to decide.
>> >
>> > BTW, sailing faster on one tack over the other might be uneven shroud
>> > tuning.
>> >
>> > Slim Chance and the Gamblers
>> > Fandango '90 Rhodes22
>> > Lake Minnetonka, MN
>> >
>> > On 3/8/07 8:41 AM, "KUHN, LELAND" <LKUHN at cnmc.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> Bud,
>> >>
>> >> I've only sailed the Rhodes for a year, so I hope I'm not giving you
>>bad
>> >> advice.
>> >>
>> >> If I want to point into the wind as much as possible, I'll put the
>> >> centerboard all the way down.  I'll also use the traveler and inside
>> >> leads to flatten the sails.  I've found that it's rare that I need that
>> >> extra five degrees into the wind to get to where I want to go.
>> >>
>> >> The centerboard can be used as a depth finder, but even with the soft
>> >> mud bottom of the Chesapeake, you never know what you're going to hit.
>> >> At the very least it will knock off your bottom paint.
>> >>
>> >> The centerboard acts as a pivot point, allowing you to make sharper
>> >> turns.  Don't really need it for tacking but could come in handy
>> >> motoring around the marina.  The boat turns sharp enough for me without
>> >> the board down.
>> >>
>> >> Depending on your point-of-sail, wind, waves, and current; the
>> >> centerboard will help balance the boat and take pressure off the
>>tiller.
>> >> I notice this really helps if I have too much sail out.  I usually
>> >> adjust the sails to balance the boat.
>> >>
>> >> As a newbie, I constantly check my speed to see what works best in all
>> >> conditions.  I have put the board up and down in every condition, and I
>> >> am convinced that the drag from the centerboard will always slow you
>> >> down.  In most cases, I believe the centerboard's ability to keep you
>> >> sailing in a straight line doesn't make up for the decrease in
>>speed.  I
>> >> might be wrong on that last statement.
>> >>
>> >> In my limited experience, the centerboard is a tool that you rarely
>>need
>> >> and will slow you down.  I guess what surprised me was that most boats
>> >> sail fastest on a close reach, due to the opposing pressures from the
>> >> sails and keel (squeezing a watermelon seed analogy).  On a close reach
>> >> with a Rhodes, you will still go faster with the centerboard up.
>> >>
>> >> If it sounds like I know what I'm talking about, reread the first
>> >> sentence. :)
>> >>
>> >> Lee
>> >> 1986 Rhodes22  At Ease
>> >> Crab Alley (Kent Island, MD)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Peter Thorn [mailto:pthorn at nc.rr.com]
>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:18 AM
>> >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>> >>
>> >> Bud,
>> >>
>> >> I'll add my 2 cents, in short:  upwind all down, downwind all up.
>> >>
>> >> The Rhodes has a very light, balanced helm.  With a large (175)
>>headsail
>> >> and
>> >> smaller (not-newer vertical battened) main there can be a tendancy to
>> >> leeward helm in light air.  As the boat heels when the breeze picks up
>> >> this
>> >> is mitigated.   So with the sailplan center of effort (CE) forward (the
>> >> rig
>> >> described above) the underwater fin's center of lateral resistance
>> >> (CLR),
>> >> which can be adjusted by the centerboard, also needs to be as forward
>>as
>> >> possible.
>> >>
>> >> Another of the many advantages to having a centerboard is that you can
>> >> change the CLR while underway by adjusting the board.  In heavier air,
>> >> when
>> >> you would expose less area on the headsail going to windward, you can
>> >> balance by raising the centerboard just a little.
>> >>
>> >> PT
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Mary Lou Troy" <mtroy at atlanticbb.net>
>> >> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:42 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Bud,
>> >>> I think it's just about vertical. Unless you are sailing in a very
>> >>> weedy area, I don't think having the pennant exposed is a problem.
>> >>> It's just as likely to get fouled by growth in the slot. Our's seems
>> >>> to stay cleaner the more we use it. We always pull the board up at
>> >>> anchor or when we leave the boat in the slip but sailing upwind it is
>> >>> always down as far as it will go. As Wally said, as we move off the
>> >>> wind we start pulling the board up.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mary Lou
>> >>> 1991 R22  Fretless
>> >>> Rock Hall, MD
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> At 08:39 PM 3/7/2007, you wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Thanks to all who responded!   Mary Lou - when you say all the way
>> >>>> down, you mean the CB is nearly vertical?
>> >>>> Do you run into any problems with the pennant line or sheaves
>> >>>> exposed in that running configuration?
>> >>>> I had thought the sheaves might get "gunked up" if they were exposed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks again,
>> >>>> Bud
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Mary Lou Troy wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Bud,
>> >>>>> Fretless is a 1991. We usually sail with the board all the way
>> >>>>> down. Exceptions are downwind or very shallow water.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Mary Lou
>> >>>>> 1991 R22  Fretless
>> >>>>> Rock Hall, MD
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> At 09:35 PM 3/6/2007, you wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Rummy,
>> >>>>>>  I have a 1990 R22, and I am pretty sure I do not have a "diamond"
>> >>>>>>
>> >> board.
>> >>
>> >>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>> -Bud
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> R22RumRunner at aol.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Bud,
>> >>>>>>> It depends on what year and centerboard design you have?
>> >>>>>>> Rummy
>> >>>>>>> <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now
>> >>>>>>> offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free
>> >>>>>>> from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
>> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >>>>>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/711 - Release Date:
>> >>>>>> 3/5/2007 9:41 AM
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >>>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/713 - Release Date:
>> >>>> 3/7/2007 9:24 AM
>> >>>>
>> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>
>> >> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments,
>>is
>> >> for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain
>>confidential
>> >> and privileged information.  Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure
>>or
>> >> distribution is prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient,
>>please
>> >> contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the
>>original
>> >> message.
>> >>
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >
>> >
>>__________________________________________________
>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>__________________________________________________
>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/714 - Release Date: 
>3/8/2007 10:58 AM