[Rhodes22-list] Michael Meltzer & Herb- Masthead lights (anchor & steaming) - Question and clar
Herb Parsons
hparsons at parsonsys.com
Thu Apr 17 18:11:13 EDT 2008
Huh Robert? He asked a question, guess he didn't like the answer.
Of course, because it's from me, you'll side the other way. I take it as
a compliment.
Robert Skinner wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Methinks Herb is just a guy who can't say "Yes."
>
> /Robert
> --------------------------------------------------
> "Michael D. Weisner" wrote:
>
>> Herb,
>>
>> I did read everything. The distinction that I am trying to make is that the
>> materials on the site are not a "recap" or restatement of the regs. The
>> links to the regs, the CFR, etc. are available on the site. The graphic is
>> produced under contract for the USCG and is agency reviewed and approved, as
>> is the entire site. It is designed to eliminate the errors inherent in
>> individual interpretation of the regs. You may go on quoting the regs and
>> your interpretations to folks rather than providing a reference to an
>> approved source of information.
>>
>> We do agree on one thing. There appears to be no sense to pursuing this
>> discussion any further or do you just really enjoy typing that much?
>>
>> Mike
>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>> Nissequogue River, NY
>>
>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008
>> 2:39 PM
>>
>>> What is your point Michael? I agree with everything you said. You asked
>>> me what I meant, I explained. The web site you provided are not the
>>> regulations, they are a recap (or an easy to understand agency approved
>>> source of information).
>>>
>>> You really DO need to go back and re-read what I said. I never said
>>> anything like the site was "interpretations from another internet guy",
>>> I said they were BETTER than a interpretations from another internet guy.
>>>
>>> Exactly - "
>>>
>>> It's a better source for an interpretation of the regs than "some guy on
>>> the internet", but it's still a recap of the "official regs"."
>>>
>>> But, I'll repeat myself, it's not the official regulations. The
>>> information will certainly work for people if they do exactly what the
>>> web site said, but they're not complete, nor are they completely
>>> accurate (as I stated, my boat that has a steaming light about 6' down
>>> from the masthead doesn't look like the picture, but it's legal).
>>>
>>> So, which part of your query to me did I not answer, or which part did I
>>> incorrectly answer, or do you just really enjoy typing that much?
>>>
>>> Michael D. Weisner wrote:
>>>
>>>> Herb,
>>>>
>>>> First of all, quoting of the rules the way you did does not help anyone
>>>> to
>>>> understand the actual requirements. Graphics still convey the
>>>> information
>>>> best. If you configure your installation per the USCGBoating.org site
>>>> you
>>>> will not have any problem.
>>>>
>>>> As a side point, the site that you list as "the regs" is linked to from
>>>> the
>>>> USCGBoating.org site, if you looked. They also have links to the CFR,
>>>> which, if you want to be technical about it, "is the primary standard
>>>> since
>>>> it is law. The problem with the "rules" of the "laws" is that lay folks
>>>> may
>>>> not be qualified to properly interpret the verbiage and may make mistakes
>>>> as
>>>> a result.
>>>>
>>>> I have always felt that it is most important to reference a usable, easy
>>>> to
>>>> understand and agency approved source for such information. The
>>>> USCGBoating.org site fulfills all of these requirements. They are not
>>>> interpretations from "another Internet guy."
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>>> Nissequogue River, NY
>>>>
>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Thursday, April 17,
>>>> 2008
>>>> 1:47 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Wow, that didn't format very well - so much for cutting and pasting.
>>>>>
>>>>> I probably should also say, if someone wants to get REALLY picky, even
>>>>> the web site I provided aren't the official regs. They're a copy, and an
>>>>> attempt is made to be accurate, but even that site says:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Those seeking official versions of the Navigation Rules should refer to
>>>>> the International Navigational Rules Act of 1977 (Public Law 95-75, 91
>>>>> Stat. 308, or 33 U.S.C. 1601-1608), and, the Inland Navigation Rules Act
>>>>> of 1980 (Public Law 96-591, 94 Stat. 3415, 33 U.S.C. 2001-2038)."
>>>>>
>>>>> The interpretation from just another internet guy is this - that's the
>>>>> printed version.
>>>>>
>>>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes Michael, it's an official web site. But it's NOT the regs. Take the
>>>>>> test, trust me, they don't ask any questions about what's on the web
>>>>>> site. They ask specific questions about the regulations, and the source
>>>>>> is the printed manual, not their website.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's an example: The web site says that "If your power-driven vessel
>>>>>> is less than 65.5 feet/20 meters in length, then it must display
>>>>>> navigation lights per Figure 1." Figure 1 then shows a picture of a
>>>>>> sailboat and a powerboat. The sailboat has a steaming light mounted on
>>>>>> the very top of the mast. That's OK, but that's NOT what the regs say.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What the regs say specifically are:
>>>>>> RULE 23:
>>>>>> POWER-DRIVEN VESSELS UNDERWAY
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (a) A power-driven vessel <../pops/def3b_PDV.htm> underway shall
>>>>>> exhibit (picture <../pops/nr_23a.htm>):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. a masthead light <../pops/def21a_masthead.htm> forward;
>>>>>> 2. a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the
>>>>>> forward
>>>>>> one; except that a vessel of less than 50 meters
>>>>>> <../pops/nr_23aii.htm> in length shall not be obliged to
>>>>>> exhibit such a light but may do so;
>>>>>> 3. sidelights <../pops/def21b_side.htm>: and
>>>>>> 4. a sternlight <../pops/def21c_stern.htm>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But that's not the end of the story, there are the different size
>>>>>> exceptions (which the website you mentioned have included in its
>>>>>> recap);
>>>>>> but, you must know the definition of some of these terms. For instance
>>>>>> "masthead light":
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =====
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rule 21 - Definitions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1.
>>>>>> "Masthead light" means a white light placed over the fore and aft
>>>>>> centerline of the vessel showing an unbroken light over an arc of
>>>>>> the horizon of 225 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from
>>>>>> right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on either side of the
>>>>>> vessel, /except that on a vessel of less than 12 meters in length
>>>>>> the masthead light shall be placed as nearly as practicable to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> fore and aft centerline of the vessel./
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =====
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (which, by the way, means my memory was wrong, it wasn't 270 degrees,
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> was 225, my test was a long time ago). It does NOT have to be on the
>>>>>> top
>>>>>> of the mast as pictured, it can be anywhere on the boat, as long as it
>>>>>> fits the above definition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The picture given in the web site your provided just makes it easier to
>>>>>> understand the jargon of the office regs. It may be an official web
>>>>>> site, but it's NOT the official regs. It's a recap of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The office regs can be found here -
>>>>>> http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm. They're harder
>>>>>> to understand, but much more specific.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your statement about "some guy on the internet" is the same as mine;
>>>>>> however, the site you gave isn't the "primary", it's better than a guy
>>>>>> on the internet, but it's still not the regs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wouldn't I hate it if some bozo took that picture and told me that my
>>>>>> steaming light that's not mounted on the top of the mast is not legal
>>>>>> because the website shows a picture of the masthead light on top of the
>>>>>> mast, and mine is about a few feet down from the top (as are most small
>>>>>> boat masthead lights)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's what I meant, it's a recap. Better than advice from me, but
>>>>>> still
>>>>>> not the official regs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael D. Weisner wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What exactly do you mean by your comment: "it's still a recap of the
>>>>>>> 'official regs'"? USCGBoating.org is an official CG site
>>>>>>> (Registrant:US
>>>>>>> Coast Guard, Office of Boating Safety) and it contains the federal and
>>>>>>> state
>>>>>>> regs. In addition, it contains illustrations that graphically
>>>>>>> represent
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> regs that have been reviewed by the CG. It is most certainly better
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> "some guy on the internet."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whenever possible, I appreciate a "primary" information source.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>> s/v Shanghaid'd Summer ('81)
>>>>>>> Nissequogue River, NY
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Wednesday, April
>>>>>>> 16,
>>>>>>> 2008
>>>>>>> 3:31 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gotcha. However, you DO realize that's not the regs. It's a better
>>>>>>>> source for an interpretation of the regs than "some guy on the
>>>>>>>> internet", but it's still a recap of the "official regs".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michael D. Weisner wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It isn't that you stated anything wrong, it is simply the original
>>>>>>>>> USCG
>>>>>>>>> source of the information in a somewhat easier to read and
>>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>>> format
>>>>>>>>> (including pictures.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>>>>>>>> Nissequogue River, NY
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Wednesday, April
>>>>>>>>> 16,
>>>>>>>>> 2008
>>>>>>>>> 2:12 PM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What part of that did I state incorrectly? Looks like the page
>>>>>>>>>> (which
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> a recap of the original regs) says different than what I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Michael D. Weisner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Herb, Bob, etc.,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Please read rules on USCG site:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.uscgboating.org/SAFETY/fedreqs/equ_nav.htm
>>>>>>>>>>> This page is very easy to read and understand.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>>>>>>>>>> Nissequogue River, NY
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Tuesday, April
>>>>>>>>>>> 15,
>>>>>>>>>>> 2008
>>>>>>>>>>> 10:41 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry Bob, but I think you mis-read the regs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A sailboat under power is a powerboat.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A powerboat between 12 meters and 20 meters has to display a
>>>>>>>>>>>> separate
>>>>>>>>>>>> stern light (90 degrees, 45 degrees each direction) and steaming
>>>>>>>>>>>> light
>>>>>>>>>>>> (270 degrees, 135 each direction)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A sailboat between 7 meters and 20 meters can use a single 360
>>>>>>>>>>>> degree
>>>>>>>>>>>> light as a combination steaming/stern light.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A sailboat under 7 meters (the Rhodes 22 fits that) can use a
>>>>>>>>>>>> flashlight
>>>>>>>>>>>> shining on the sail as your steaming light, but how un-cool is
>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> However, if it's under power, it's a powerboat. If it's a
>>>>>>>>>>>> powerboat,
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> has to have a steaming light.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob Keller wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the 360 as an anchor light is required but the 360 as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> steaming
>>>>>>>>>>>>> light is optional/overkill. The R-22 only needs the port,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> starboard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stern lights while underway, doesn't need anything on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mast...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CG
>>>>>>>>>>>>> link confirmed that. Of course, the rules might be different on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lake
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hartwell since even Y-valves are not allowed there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob K
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 04:38:02 -0700> From:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ekroposki at charter.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Michael
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meltzer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Herb - Masthead lights (anchor & steaming) - Question and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clarification>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Bob Keller and Dana...> > Michael Meltzer is our resident
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expert
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is legal regarding lights. > So 'USCG Captain' Meltzer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct answers to Bob and Dana's> questions?> > This much I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lighting pattern is different for different length> boats. Why?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledgeable 'Captains' can tell what kind of boat it is. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that a question for the 'Captain's' exam.> > As to Anchor light
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible on a 22 foot boat for 360 degrees, I do not> think that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be a single light. On the R22 there is a light on the>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'stern'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> added to the light up the mast, together they qualify as 360>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> degrees
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> white light. Is that how the R22 is legal? I suspect that Stan>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might know what qualifies as legal lights.> > Now Bob K. has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> o find out if his 360 degrees of masthead light on a 22 foot>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> boat
>>>>>>>>>>>>> screws up the Coast Guard's intent in lighting( I already know
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct answer, but does he?). The Coast Guard does publish a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> small
>>>>>>>>>>>>> booklet> on lighting, just do not know where my copy is quickly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe> these questions are answered in 'Chapman's'. When I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> copies, I will> seek yea answers. This is comes up every so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> often
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> forum so the> answers are probably in the archives. > > Ed K>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greenville,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> SC, USA> attachment for Slim:> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p16656988/approve.gif approve.gif > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there, I bought an 87 R22 last year and absolutely love it. I'm>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently working on getting it ready for the season. The mast
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wired
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for> an anchor light, but whatever was there must have busted
>>>>>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I got> the boat. There is also a light fixture facing forward
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> foot from> the top of the mast, but it wasn't working last year
>>>>>>>>>>>>> either.>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I have two questions:> > 1. The an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ch
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or light and steaming are separate lights, right? My>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that an anchor light has to be visible from all directions,> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> steaming light is the light facing forward that must be on when>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> motoring.> > 2. Any recommendations on new lighting? Is there a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> combined
>>>>>>>>>>>>> LED light that> will serve both purposes?> > Thanks,> Dana> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p16656988/approve.gif approve.gif
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Masthead-lights-%28anchor---steaming%29-tp16655218p16656988.html>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.> >
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
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