[Rhodes22-list] Political - Ed, off the rails again

[Robert Skinner]

Mike, thank you for encapsulating the discussion in reason.

Perhaps I would do best by realizing that they are reacting 
to an image of me (and their fears) rather than the reality 
that I see (and do not have all the answers for).

I just hate being stood up against a wall not of my choosing 
and being attacked for ideas that I do not have about actions 
that I have not and will not take.

Looks like the KGB or McCarthy trials to me.

About the Amish - they had no trouble coming to my father 
when he was practicing medicine in Lancaster County, PA.
They just had other people drive them in -- Mennonites if
memory serves -- AKA "Black Bumper Amish" because they 
painted all the chrome black on their cars.  But they often
died as a result of their faith, just like the Christian
Scientists.

Come to think of it, the problem of children dying because 
their parents refuse treatment on religious grounds has 
some parallels in the political arena.  How sad.

/Robert
------------------------------------------------------------
michael meltzer wrote:
> 
> I hear you, when I was growing up, I remember line up in the gym for
> "shots", still have the "mark" on my arm from the dam things, the other
> thing I remember is the "Amish" around me never getting them, had issues
> with outbreaks from that.
> 
> The bottom line, in my option, people all over the world have an "economic
> value", and health care impart is a reflection of that value. We all know
> about the death and abuses in the world. Unfortunately the child value is a
> direct refraction of the parents.  It goes for food also. Charity is
> promoted by most "belief systems" and is good for the giver(they get
> elevated status in the social group). It when the Charity goes beyond the
> "comfort level" and is now forced(at gun point?, government, IRS :-) that it
> consider one of the evil "ism".
> 
> What I think herb and ed are reacting to are the absolute statements that
> make this sound like "forced" actions, it not "goodness" saying help the
> children but two or 3 steps on how to get there.
> 
> -mjm
> 
> PS. I love ed, been around forever, but it like you are auguring with "Andy
> Rooney".
> BTW. I left elderly out of this. That is much more complicated, mostly with
> issues of letting go on all sides.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Robert Skinner
> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:23 AM
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Political - Ed, off the rails again
> 
> Michael -
> 
> I respect both your intellect and integrity.
> Thank you for your comments.
> 
> If you were asking me why I don't help feed
> starving children, well, I do, but haven't
> broadcast it.  I understand that Ed also
> helps out with this.  The issue is health
> care.
> 
> As to health care for children, while I feel
> that the primary responsibility for children
> rests with their parent(s), I do think that
> the state has reason to at least ensure that
> immunization is available -- in its own
> interest.
> 
> It can also be argued that society as a whole
> would gain benefit from ensuring that some
> standard of health care is ensured for
> children up to the point where they can obtain
> their own health insurance, etc.
> 
> In so many cases, irresponsible parents have
> abdicated responsibility for the results of
> their impulsive personal behavior.  In other
> cases, parents lack the education or intellect
> to deal with our complicated and entrapping
> economic system.  Sometimes it is sheer
> laziness.  No matter the reason, there are
> many children who are not receiving adequate
> health care and/or socialization.  We all pay
> for the results - crime, etc.
> 
> I have also advocated, as Ed well knows, that
> the aged should at least receive paliative
> care as they are on the way out -- from the state
> if they have no family and/or friends who will
> help them to a dignified departure.  Simple
> compassion indicates this and much more that
> I choose not to debate here.
> 
> As to a crossing a line, I am about at the end
> of my patience with Ed's characterization of
> me as a "socialist."  I admit to being a
> compassionate social being, and have requested
> that he simply leave me out of his messages.
> 
> And yes, my reply to Ed has Swiftian overtones.
> It seems a proper model.
> 
> Right now, the ball is in Ed's court.
> 
> VR,
> /Robert
> 
> michael meltzer wrote:
> >
> > You are on a slippery slope, there are children starving to dead from a
> lack
> > of food right now, why should they not be helped? Morphine? They want a
> > simple rice ball. Postulant: you have a boat and time to post to the list,
> > ago you have resources available to solve the problems but choice not to
> us
> > them for that cause..............  Now I know you were going for Johan
> Swift
> > and "A modest proposal". But once you say there is a "line" where we can
> > help no further, then it a debated about where the line is..............
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Robert Skinner
> > Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 11:29 PM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Political - Ed, off the rails again
> >
> > Tootle wrote:
> > > Bob,
> > >
> > > You have to be acknowledged because you are openly supportive of a
> > > government program of minimal health care.  You claim to be a fiscal
> > > conservative, but advocate a socialist program.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Where to begin?
> >
> > You don't like minimal governmental health care
> >      (while keeping a working private system).
> > You don't like complete governmental health care.
> > You don't like ....
> >
> > You would prefer to have children spreading disease
> > and being disfigured or sickly for the rest of their
> > lives because their parents had no money to get them
> > immunized, etc. - FOR WHATEVER REASON.
> >
> > You seem positively overjoyed about the aged dying
> > in the full glory of their agony - unless they can
> > pay for their own morphine and bribe their way out
> > of a hospital to have a dignified death.
> >
> > I bet you would even advocate the government selling
> > tickets to watch their writhing and screams to reduce
> > your taxes.  What the Hell.  Ethics be damned.
> > Why not turn death into a profit center?
> >
> > You would change medicare from a net dollar loss to
> > a positive gain by reduction or elimination of elder
> > care, forcing "early retirement" as a source of
> > government income!  Sales of videos of particularly
> > spectacular suffering and coughing puking incontinent
> > spastic whimpering departures from life would certainly
> > be a win-win for your recalcitrant taxpayer.  After all,
> > the current administration has shredded any rights we
> > had to privacy.
> >
> > Is there no depth to which you will not sink in pursuit
> > of your precious and specious arguments against whatever
> > you decide to call "socialism?"
> >
> > Wake up and get a grip on reality, Ed.
> >
> > There are no pure systems in a political world.  You
> > do what is reasonable.  Politics is the art of the
> > possible, not some ivory tower manifesto-driven work,
> > whether it be Marxist or Adam Smith's dream.
> >
> > You have no argument with me, nor any comprehension
> > of what or how I think, despite my best attempts at
> > patient communication.
> >
> > Or perhaps you are just indulging in a sick joke.  It
> > is impossible to believe that you are both sane and
> > serious in your commentary.
> >
> > Enough for tonight!  I am disgusted beyond endurance.
> >
> > /Robert
> > __________________________________________________
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> >
> > __________________________________________________
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> 
> --
> Robert Skinner  "Squirrel Haven"
> Gorham, Maine         04038-1331
> s/v "Little Dipper" & "Edith P."
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> 
> __________________________________________________
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-- 
Robert Skinner  "Squirrel Haven" 
Gorham, Maine         04038-1331
s/v "Little Dipper" & "Edith P."