[Rhodes22-list] History

Mary Lou Troy mtroy at atlanticbb.net
Wed Dec 31 14:36:27 EST 2008


Stop putting words in my mouth. I wasn't defending anyone's actions - 
simply pointing out past excellence.

Mean-spirited is mean-spirited and begets more mean-spiritedness. 
That is my point.

Mary Lou
1991 R22 Fretless
Rock Hall, MD

At 02:29 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote:
>Just a question - so you feel that Rummy's comments that Bush was the
>dumbest son of a bitch we've ever had as president were "an example of
>what list members used to be inspired to do to 'help each other'"?
>
>I hope you see my point...
>
>
>Mary Lou Troy wrote:
> > Sorry Brad, I may go sailing in bad weather and I do leave my house
> > regularly but I don't feel I should need a Kevlar vest to participate
> > in an email list with people who like the same kind of boat I do. A
> > sense of humor and a positive attitude maybe but not a Kevlar vest. I
> > haven't been able to see much to be humorous about around here lately
> > even though some of the jokes have been funny. I feel my positive
> > attitude has been beaten out of me. This has gone a long way beyond
> > "a few barbs".
> >
> > I included Rummy as an example of what list members used to be
> > inspired to do to "help each other". I saw his actions and those of
> > countless others as being in the spirit of the charter and being
> > examples of what we are in danger of losing if we all decide we don't
> > want to be bothered. I haven't been in touch with him. I don't know
> > if he'll be back. I don't know who will be here next week. I'm hoping
> > that there will be a list that I want to participate in.
> >
> > Mary Lou
> > 1991 R22  Fretless
> > Rock Hall, MD
> >
> > At 01:39 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote:
> >
> >> Mary Lou,
> >>
> >> Rummy was one of the biggest antagonists on the list.  Trust me,
> >> he'll get tired of lurking and come back.  Everyone, get over your
> >> pity party and put on your Kevlar vests.  For goodness sakes, if you
> >> can't take a few barbs in cyberspace you probably shouldn't leave
> >> your house on a sailboat where the weather could turn nasty and the
> >> boom could knock your head off!
> >>
> >> Brad
> >>
> >> --- On Wed, 12/31/08, Mary Lou Troy <mtroy at atlanticbb.net> wrote:
> >> From: Mary Lou Troy <mtroy at atlanticbb.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] History
> >> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 12:27 PM
> >>
> >> Here's the history as I remember it dating at least to early 1998.
> >> Similar to Bill's but differing in a few key factors. (If people are
> >> going to be using the archives for list history I figured I ought to
> >> post the history as I remember it.)
> >>
> >> I believe the early list was a Sail-net email list. Sailnet was
> >> founded in 1994. I don't know when they started their email lists. I
> >> think I found the Rhodes list about the same time we purchased
> >> Fretless in the Spring of 1998 maybe a bit before. It was not a
> >> Rhodes 22 list but a list for admirers and owners of any Rhodes
> >> designed boat. The R22 owners quickly overwhelmed the list and it
> >> became a de facto R22 list. We were delighted to find each other. If
> >> there was another  email list before that, it was not a link on the
> >> GB website in early 1996 when we started looking at the R22. There
> >> was evidently a print R22 Owners Association newsletter that ceased
> >> publication in 1991. Sailnet changed owners several times with
> >> impacts on email list reliability and the rules for the list. At some
> >> point (2002) our esteemed Michael Meltzer (who did indeed help GB get
> >> into the web business in the 90s and was a long-time R22 owner)
> >> offered to host the list on his server. He put it together in one
> >> night using the rhodes22.org domain which he had already used in
> >> setting up the Rhodes owners site on his server. That was the genesis
> >> of the current list. For a while people were on both lists but
> >> eventually the Sailnet traffic withered away and Sailnet got rid of
> >> their email lists completely earlier this year. They still have
> >> forums (bulletin boards) and there is still a Rhodes forum there.
> >>
> >> In the early days of the list there were several gatherings of Rhodes
> >> owners (and wannabees). There was a memorable dinner at Carroll's
> >> Creek Restaurant and another at Buddy's in Annapolis after the Boat
> >> Show. I remember Cam Whetstone carrying his new centerboard cap
> >> around as we waited to get in and Michael Meltzer checking email on
> >> his laptop long before any of the rest of us had heard of aircards.
> >> This was followed by a couple years when Jan Eyres (event planner
> >> extraordinaire) and I (but mostly Jan) planned an after hours catered
> >> dinner at the Annapolis Boat Show. Michael arranged the passes to get
> >> us in after-hours. Somewhere I still have the pics from that. There
> >> was a memorable gathering at Kentucky Lake. We didn't go but it is
> >> memorialized with pics on the Rhodes owners website. There was a
> >> marriage. There were a couple of gatherings on the Chesapeake as well
> >> as well as several mid-winter Chesapeake PlanJams - the last at my
> >> house last January with 30 some people. At this year's Boat
> >> Show  (and last year's) we had lunch with Rhodes owners from the list
> >> in a mini-gathering organized on the list. These things won't happen
> >> if people sign off the list because of the content or the tone of the
> >> conversations.
> >>
> >> In the early days, if there were angry outbursts and hard feelings
> >> they mostly went off list. One person (maybe two) did get banned when
> >> they couldn't abide by the charter. It was Michael's call. It was his
> >> list. Bill is right that Stan used to send people to the list but I
> >> don't think Stan ever claimed ownership. I know that we all have felt
> >> a great deal of gratitude to Stan for continuing to build and recycle
> >> the boats that we sail with such pleasure. For the most part we have
> >> tried to be helpful to General Boats. My guess is that the link to
> >> the list came off the GB website when politics started getting ugly.
> >> I'm pretty sure Stan still sends people to the list but probably only
> >> after they have bought the boat or at least have made the decision to
> >> buy the boat.
> >>
> >> The list charter was a group effort by members of the list to make
> >> rules that we could live with and still get along with each other to
> >> everyone's benefit.
> >>
> >> Rummy, who just left the list, through his own good efforts compiled
> >> an owners list that was available to any member in good standing of
> >> that list. It was invaluable as we got to know each other. When Rummy
> >> decided to pack it in, I volunteered to take on the owners list but
> >> life intervened and I didn't get to it. By the time I was ready to
> >> take up the effort the political problems were in full swing and I
> >> wasn't feeling all that eager (not a good excuse just the truth about
> >> how I felt at the time). If the list becomes tolerable again, maybe
> >> I'll make another attempt.
> >>
> >> Mary Lou
> >> 1991 R22  Fretless
> >> Rock Hall, MD
> >>
> >>
> >> At 12:06 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote:
> >>
> >>> That's good history to know.
> >>> When I signed up about 2 years ago, (that seams to be when it started
> >>> downhill) I was refered to by Stan also. I saw all the political crap &
> >>>
> >> was
> >>
> >>> dissappointed....and said so. I got a shorter version of the same
> >>> explanation & then understood. I was told this was not Stans list....by
> >>> Stan.
> >>> I agree with you nothing should be done different, the charter covers it.
> >>>
> >> My
> >>
> >>> problem is that some people insult you in such a nice way, it's allowed
> >>>
> >> ...&
> >>
> >>> when someone comes right out & says it, it's a bad thing. I was
> >>>
> >> disgusted by
> >>
> >>> some of the things said about our last President, I just as 
> disgusted that
> >>> some people won't even give the new one a chance.
> >>> Jb
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> >>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:32 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello Sheriff?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Jb,
> >>>>
> >>>> Michael built and maintained Stan's website.  In return, Stan
> >>>>
> >> would tow
> >>
> >>>> Michael's boat to Edenton every winter, upgrade it, install
> >>>>
> >> "test"
> >>
> >>>> equipment, bottom paint it, and get it back to Michael in time for an
> >>>> early launch.
> >>>>
> >>>> At some point, Michael suggested the formation of an email group so
> >>>>
> >> that
> >>
> >>>> people could ask each other all the questions that Stan couldn't
> >>>> possibly respond to...even if he owned a computer, and knew how to
> >>>>
> >> use it.
> >>
> >>>> Michael put links on Stan's website so both existing owners and
> >>>>
> >> newbies
> >>
> >>>> could find "da list".  (Remember, Google is only 10 years
> >>>>
> >> old -- it was
> >>
> >>>> difficult for anyone other than a computer geek to find anything on
> >>>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>>> Internet, and email lists were not indexed.)  Almost everyone who got
> >>>>
> >> on
> >>
> >>>> "da list" at that time was sent here by Stan, both from his
> >>>>
> >> website and
> >>
> >>>> from in-person recommendations both before and after boat purchases.
> >>>>
> >>>> I know I got here because Stan suggested I could learn a lot from
> >>>>
> >> people
> >>
> >>>> on the list.  I know many others who got here the same way.
> >>>>
> >>>> Michael is one of the smartest people on the planet.  In the early
> >>>>
> >> days,
> >>
> >>>> he would answer 9 out of 10 questions asked.  He talked to Stan
> >>>> regularly, and when he didn't know the answer, and felt it was a
> >>>>
> >> good
> >>
> >>>> question, he would call Stan after hours and come up with the
> >>>>
> >> technical
> >>
> >>>> information the rest of us sought.
> >>>>
> >>>> We hopped onto the Sailnet list server at some point.  They wanted to
> >>>>
> >> be
> >>
> >>>> a web portal for sailers.  They offered free list-hosting.  As they
> >>>>
> >> grew
> >>
> >>>> they encountered growing pains.  They switched software, and lost
> >>>> everyone on the list in the process.  Those of us who cared,
> >>>>
> >> contacted
> >>
> >>>> everyone else back-channel and told them what had happened and what
> >>>>
> >> they
> >>
> >>>> had to do to get back on the list.  I believe we had 34 members at
> >>>>
> >> that
> >>
> >>>> point.
> >>>>
> >>>> Then Sailnet started selling things, and made a rule that no one else
> >>>> could sell anything on any list they hosted.  Then they started
> >>>> monitoring lists to enforce the rule, and bouncing out people who
> >>>> violated their rule.
> >>>>
> >>>> We started looking for another way to run our list, and Michael came
> >>>>
> >> up
> >>
> >>>> with the Mailman Program which he hosted and maintained as
> >>>>
> >> administrator.
> >>
> >>>> At some point Stan learned to use a computer, and started providing
> >>>> information directly to the list. What a treat!  When somebody got
> >>>> something wrong, or had a better way to solve a problem, the guy who
> >>>> built the boat would actually discuss the issue on an open forum!
> >>>>
> >>>> Michael was plugged into the blogging community before anyone used
> >>>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>>> word "blog".  He would get jokes, and "insider
> >>>>
> >> info" and post it to the
> >>
> >>>> list long before any other sailor had access to what he posted.  Some
> >>>> complained that it was "off-topic" but Stan always said he
> >>>>
> >> loved it, and
> >>
> >>>> didn't give a damn if anyone didn't think it was funny, or
> >>>>
> >> disagreed
> >>
> >>>> with anyone else's political views.  And, he said, living in
> >>>>
> >> Edenton, he
> >>
> >>>> wasn't locally exposed to a lot of cultural stuff he took for
> >>>>
> >> granted
> >>
> >>>> living near NYC.
> >>>>
> >>>> "Bring it on" said Stan, "and don't worry about
> >>>>
> >> killing a boat
> >>
> >>>> sale--this is much more fun--be yourself--respect each other--Michael
> >>>> taught me how to use the delete key."
> >>>>
> >>>> Food fights would erupt from time to time over the exact same issues.
> >>>> Politics and Religion were both banned at some point, so people
> >>>>
> >> started
> >>
> >>>> inserting their political views in the form of often vicious jokes.
> >>>>
> >> The
> >>
> >>>> only way anyone could object to the joke was to explain it in
> >>>>
> >> political
> >>
> >>>> terms. The prohibition against Politics was dropped with the mandate
> >>>> that all political discussion had to be preceded on the subject line
> >>>>
> >> by
> >>
> >>>> the word Politics:
> >>>>
> >>>> How to use filters to toss all email labeled "Politics:"
> >>>>
> >> into anyone's
> >>
> >>>> junk folder was repeatedly explained so that anyone not wishing to
> >>>>
> >> see
> >>
> >>>> this stuff would never even know others on the list were actively
> >>>> discussing these topics.
> >>>>
> >>>> Later, a rule was instituted mandating that Jokes: also appears on
> >>>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>>> subject line when the content is jokes.
> >>>>
> >>>> ...
> >>>>
> >>>> At some point the list turned on Stan.  It wasn't anyone's
> >>>>
> >> fault, it was
> >>
> >>>> just the normal evolution of the Internet.
> >>>>
> >>>> Some of the people who had been with the list for a long time opted
> >>>>
> >> to
> >>
> >>>> purchase other boats. They started singing the praises of their
> >>>>
> >> boats,
> >>
> >>>> on Stan's list, and urging others to trade in Stan's boat for
> >>>>
> >> one
> >>
> >>>> bigger, or better, or more ostentatious.
> >>>>
> >>>> Then people who would never have been able to find each other started
> >>>> selling boats directly to each other, and cutting Stan out of the
> >>>>
> >> middle
> >>
> >>>> -- "Stan offered me $10,000 for this boat, so you know he's
> >>>>
> >> going to
> >>
> >>>> sell it for $20,000 -- I'll sell it to anyone on the list for
> >>>>
> >> $15,000."
> >>
> >>>> Then people started offering to fabricate parts for Stan's
> >>>>
> >> boat--"Send
> >>
> >>>> me the specifications on that trailer, and I'll make one for you
> >>>>
> >> for 1/2
> >>
> >>>> what Stan would charge."
> >>>>
> >>>> Over time they hijacked Stan's list.  Stan objected several
> >>>>
> >> times, and
> >>
> >>>> many people on the list went out of their way to only buy through
> >>>>
> >> Stan.
> >>
> >>>> But, in the end, Stan stopped participating on a regular basis, and
> >>>>
> >> took
> >>
> >>>> the list off his web site.
> >>>>
> >>>> But, it's still Stan's list, and Stan is still the common
> >>>>
> >> link for most
> >>
> >>>> of us.  He can't use it as a sales tool anymore, but he still can
> >>>>
> >> have
> >>
> >>>> fun with old friends...just as it says in the charter.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have posted the charter below so all can see what they signed up
> >>>>
> >> for,
> >>
> >>>> if they never took the time to read it previously.
> >>>>
> >>>> In prior years, Michael would post the Charter at this point--he
> >>>>
> >> wrote
> >>
> >>>> it, but he seems disinclined to do so, so here it is:
> >>>>
> >>>> *CHARTER*:  *rhodes22*-list at ...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=0>
> >>
> >>>> The *rhodes*-list at ...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=1>
> >>
> >>>> group will be  open to discussion of all
> >>>> subjects specifically referring to *Rhodes* sailboats  or  *Rhodes*
> >>>> sailors. The focus of this group includes, but is not limited  to:
> >>>>
> >>>> * Encouraging the understanding and discussion of *Rhodes* sailboats
> >>>>
> >> or
> >>
> >>>> *Rhodes* sailors, in the many ways people wish to define it.
> >>>>
> >>>> * Acting  as a source of information for  *Rhodes* sailboats or
> >>>>
> >> *Rhodes*
> >>
> >>>> sailors  worldwide and for people planning  to buy/sell/repair/learn
> >>>> about *Rhodes*  sailboats or *Rhodes* sailors.
> >>>>
> >>>> * Providing a forum for the development and  promotion *Rhodes*
> >>>>
> >> sailboats
> >>
> >>>> or *Rhodes* sailors'  culture, history,  traditions and economy.
> >>>>
> >>>> * Any other subject that might be found at a  sailor's bar or the
> >>>> Clubhouse Bar, Including *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes*  sailors'
> >>>>
> >> travels,
> >>
> >>>> events, family, jokes, quotations, pets, etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> * The  level of discussion does not have to be fit for a child, but
> >>>> some good taste  is expected.
> >>>>
> >>>> Binaries and Formatting: The posting of encoded binaries  (e.g.
> >>>> pictures, compressed files, etc.) to  *rhodes*-list at ...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=2>
> >>
> >>>> is  not
> >>>> allowed, the list server will remove them. Please use mixed case
> >>>>
> >> when
> >>
> >>>> posting (Upper and lower case letters), typing words in  uppercase
> >>>> means you are SHOUTING.
> >>>>
> >>>> Quoting: Place new material at the  top of the post and quote what
> >>>>
> >> you
> >>
> >>>> are replying to below. That makes it  simple to find out what is
> >>>>
> >> being
> >>
> >>>> said. You are encouraged to edit down the  quoted material.
> >>>>
> >>>> HTML mail: Allot of the email programs (Netscape and  outlook) that
> >>>>
> >> can
> >>
> >>>> send their email with embedded HTML. Embedded HTML can  cause some of
> >>>> the list members to have trouble reading their mail due to
> >>>>
> >> "browser
> >>
> >>>> wars", not reading their mail with a web browser and double
> >>>>
> >> messages
> >>
> >>>> in digest mode. Member are encouraged to set their programs to  send
> >>>> "text" email.
> >>>>
> >>>> Subject Line: Please set or change the subject line  to reflect the
> >>>> true subject of the  post. for example "Subject: anchors"
> >>>>
> >> might be
> >>
> >>>> turned into "Subject: gastank was anchors". If a joke (or
> >>>>
> >> any
> >>
> >>>> questionable material) is being posted please indicate it on  the
> >>>> subject line, for example "Subject: Monday's Humor
> >>>>
> >> (jokes)"
> >>
> >>>> Netiquette: Posts to the group are expected to be considerate of
> >>>>
> >> other
> >>
> >>>> readers. Personal abuse, flames, and obscenities are  *not*
> >>>> appreciated; but we are sailors.......
> >>>>
> >>>> Anonymous email: It is  expected that users will provide their name
> >>>>
> >> in
> >>
> >>>> the email and will sign  same.  We like to know who we're talking
> >>>>
> >> to.
> >>
> >>>> Social  Interaction/Manners: To a certain extent, the interaction is
> >>>> about what you  would expect in any informal social setting, for
> >>>> example, a bar.  It is  recommended that you get to know people first
> >>>> and introduce yourself (about  the same social rules that you would
> >>>>
> >> use
> >>
> >>>> to meet any new group of people).  There is a high level of chitchat
> >>>>
> >> on
> >>
> >>>> the list, and what you might think is  insulting to a group or region
> >>>> might only be people kidding each other after  knowing them for
> >>>>
> >> years.
> >>
> >>>> As in any bar, the subjects of politics and religion  can lead to
> >>>> heated augments and bar fights. These might be best  avoided.
> >>>>
> >>>> The need to participate: It is recognized that a group is only
> >>>>
> >> whoever
> >>
> >>>> post to it, no more and no less. We can only talk about what  people
> >>>> post about. You earn respect on the list by postings and trying  to
> >>>> help each other, you can not demand it. Most sailing topics we  have
> >>>> talked about already, We chit chat in the mean time waiting to
> >>>>
> >> answer
> >>
> >>>> questions or a new subject/story.  If you want to know  something,
> >>>> please post it, the more detail the better. If someone is trying  to
> >>>> help you please answer their reasonable questions. If you can  help
> >>>> someone, again post it, Try to repay the knowledge you  gained.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>
> >>>> Jb wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> why do keep saying this is Stans list?
> >>>>> Jb
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> >>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List"
> >>>>>
> >> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>
> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:53 PM
> >>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello Sheriff?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Michael,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Who made you the Jello Sheriff?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This is Stan's list, not yours, and he just told us he
> >>>>>>
> >> doesn't believe
> >>
> >>> a
> >>>
> >>>>>> Jello Sheriff is required.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Shall I tell you who I think is being a PITA?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Do you think it will improve the list if everyone conforms
> >>>>>>
> >> to your
> >>
> >>> views
> >>>
> >>>>>> of who is using "mean sprite"?  Only people who
> >>>>>>
> >> submit jokes you find
> >>
> >>>>>> funny can remain on the list?  If you don't
> >>>>>>
> >> laugh--they're out!
> >>
> >>>>>> Whatever happened to that rule about throwing people off the
> >>>>>>
> >> list if
> >>
> >>>>>> they don't own a Rhodes-22?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> How about syntax rules, and spelling rules?  That should be
> >>>>>>
> >> fun.
> >>
> >>>>>> Better drop the rule about people on ego trips.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Of course, this charter change must be submitted to the
> >>>>>>
> >> entire list as
> >>
> >>>>>> per our charter.  Does Rummy still get a vote?  How about
> >>>>>>
> >> Ben?  How
> >>
> >>>>>> about people under your review?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> LOL,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Your dear friend,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> michael meltzer wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> He is the working idea.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1)      Is the problem is not so much the off subject
> >>>>>>>
> >> post, as long as
> >>
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> are entertaining there is no real issue, funny,
> >>>>>>>
> >> informative, nice..
> >>
> >>>>>>> 2)      The problem is the people using "mean
> >>>>>>>
> >> sprite" , pounding on
> >>
> >>>>>>> people,
> >>>>>>> people on ego trips that they must change the world by
> >>>>>>>
> >> changing the
> >>
> >>> view
> >>>
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> the members, being a PITA
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> To that end.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1)      in the short: people using "mean
> >>>>>>>
> >> sprite" , pounding on people,
> >>
> >>>>>>> people on ego trips that they must change the world by
> >>>>>>>
> >> changing the
> >>
> >>> view
> >>>
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> the members. Can and will be suspended buy me and john
> >>>>>>>
> >> at our whim,
> >>
> >>> using
> >>>
> >>>>>>> current tools. Willing to listen to some group feedback
> >>>>>>>
> >> but really
> >>
> >>> the
> >>>
> >>>>>>> right to suspend and remove PITA's
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2)      in the long term both me and john no not have
> >>>>>>>
> >> the time for
> >>
> >>> this.
> >>>
> >>>>>>> Thinking along the lines of a "trusted" group
> >>>>>>>
> >> of people can numerated
> >>
> >>> a
> >>>
> >>>>>>> poster for suspend/remove/band that a larger group of
> >>>>>>>
> >> list members can
> >>
> >>>>>>> vote
> >>>>>>> on(the jury, maybe post #/length of time on the list
> >>>>>>>
> >> weighted). Web
> >>
> >>> based
> >>>
> >>>>>>> system. Me and john then become the "apples board.
> >>>>>>>
> >> The real question
> >>
> >>> in
> >>>
> >>>>>>> most
> >>>>>>> cases would be are you a PITA and worth it
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 3)      there is a question about a wiki(ben), we tried
> >>>>>>>
> >> it once but
> >>
> >>> let's
> >>>
> >>>>>>> try again, it could have broad applies
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
> >>>>>>>
> >> mailing list go to
> >>
> >>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> >>>>>>
> >> list go to
> >>
> >>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
> >>>>>
> >> go to
> >>
> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> >>>>
> >> to
> >>
> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> >>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> >>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date:
> >>> 12/31/2008 8:44 AM
> >>>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> __________________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> >> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> __________________________________________________
> >>
> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date:
> >> 12/31/2008 8:44 AM
> >>
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list 
> go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>--
>Herb Parsons
>
>__________________________________________________
>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go 
>to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>__________________________________________________
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 
>12/31/2008 8:44 AM



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