[Rhodes22-list] History

Brad Haslett flybrad at gmail.com
Wed Dec 31 16:22:34 EST 2008 

Bill,

As a Jew, I think you will appreciate this - I just installed 1.2G
extra memory in my laptop from Computer Memory Outlet for $32.  My
wife is not impressed with you Jews or your ability to buy things on
sale.  She thinks I got robbed.  She says you guys are amateurs!

I don't give a shit about your ilk or hers, all I know is you guys can
insult me at 4 times the speed and it booted on the first try!

Brad

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
> Mary Lou,
>
> You've been around long enough to enjoy the chuckle of me being selected
> for the same team as Herb, Brad, and Ed.
>
> You can look back as far as you like--my tone has not changed.  My jokes
> have not changed. My values have not changed.
>
> It's just that my former teammates are mad at me because I believe they
> have put aside all the values they said they stood for, and I have said so.
>
> As a Jew, half of whose family was wiped out in WWII, I am very
> frightened any time the "good citizens" decide "the end justifies the
> means".
>
> I think that is what is happening in this country, and I will not stop
> saying so, even if Michael and John hijack this list, and prevent people
> they disagree with from presenting their views.
>
> Bill Effros
>
> PS -- Ed, Brad, Herb and most of the other vocal members of this list
> have also been extremely giving and have helped others repeatedly while
> many of the lurkers who would inherit the list simply grumbled about the
> efforts of others--just as they are doing now.
>
> Lurkers do not a list make.
>
>
>
>
> Mary Lou Troy wrote:
>> Sorry Brad, I may go sailing in bad weather and I do leave my house
>> regularly but I don't feel I should need a Kevlar vest to participate
>> in an email list with people who like the same kind of boat I do. A
>> sense of humor and a positive attitude maybe but not a Kevlar vest. I
>> haven't been able to see much to be humorous about around here lately
>> even though some of the jokes have been funny. I feel my positive
>> attitude has been beaten out of me. This has gone a long way beyond
>> "a few barbs".
>>
>> I included Rummy as an example of what list members used to be
>> inspired to do to "help each other". I saw his actions and those of
>> countless others as being in the spirit of the charter and being
>> examples of what we are in danger of losing if we all decide we don't
>> want to be bothered. I haven't been in touch with him. I don't know
>> if he'll be back. I don't know who will be here next week. I'm hoping
>> that there will be a list that I want to participate in.
>>
>> Mary Lou
>> 1991 R22  Fretless
>> Rock Hall, MD
>>
>> At 01:39 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote:
>>
>>> Mary Lou,
>>>
>>> Rummy was one of the biggest antagonists on the list.  Trust me,
>>> he'll get tired of lurking and come back.  Everyone, get over your
>>> pity party and put on your Kevlar vests.  For goodness sakes, if you
>>> can't take a few barbs in cyberspace you probably shouldn't leave
>>> your house on a sailboat where the weather could turn nasty and the
>>> boom could knock your head off!
>>>
>>> Brad
>>>
>>> --- On Wed, 12/31/08, Mary Lou Troy <mtroy at atlanticbb.net> wrote:
>>> From: Mary Lou Troy <mtroy at atlanticbb.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] History
>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 12:27 PM
>>>
>>> Here's the history as I remember it dating at least to early 1998.
>>> Similar to Bill's but differing in a few key factors. (If people are
>>> going to be using the archives for list history I figured I ought to
>>> post the history as I remember it.)
>>>
>>> I believe the early list was a Sail-net email list. Sailnet was
>>> founded in 1994. I don't know when they started their email lists. I
>>> think I found the Rhodes list about the same time we purchased
>>> Fretless in the Spring of 1998 maybe a bit before. It was not a
>>> Rhodes 22 list but a list for admirers and owners of any Rhodes
>>> designed boat. The R22 owners quickly overwhelmed the list and it
>>> became a de facto R22 list. We were delighted to find each other. If
>>> there was another  email list before that, it was not a link on the
>>> GB website in early 1996 when we started looking at the R22. There
>>> was evidently a print R22 Owners Association newsletter that ceased
>>> publication in 1991. Sailnet changed owners several times with
>>> impacts on email list reliability and the rules for the list. At some
>>> point (2002) our esteemed Michael Meltzer (who did indeed help GB get
>>> into the web business in the 90s and was a long-time R22 owner)
>>> offered to host the list on his server. He put it together in one
>>> night using the rhodes22.org domain which he had already used in
>>> setting up the Rhodes owners site on his server. That was the genesis
>>> of the current list. For a while people were on both lists but
>>> eventually the Sailnet traffic withered away and Sailnet got rid of
>>> their email lists completely earlier this year. They still have
>>> forums (bulletin boards) and there is still a Rhodes forum there.
>>>
>>> In the early days of the list there were several gatherings of Rhodes
>>> owners (and wannabees). There was a memorable dinner at Carroll's
>>> Creek Restaurant and another at Buddy's in Annapolis after the Boat
>>> Show. I remember Cam Whetstone carrying his new centerboard cap
>>> around as we waited to get in and Michael Meltzer checking email on
>>> his laptop long before any of the rest of us had heard of aircards.
>>> This was followed by a couple years when Jan Eyres (event planner
>>> extraordinaire) and I (but mostly Jan) planned an after hours catered
>>> dinner at the Annapolis Boat Show. Michael arranged the passes to get
>>> us in after-hours. Somewhere I still have the pics from that. There
>>> was a memorable gathering at Kentucky Lake. We didn't go but it is
>>> memorialized with pics on the Rhodes owners website. There was a
>>> marriage. There were a couple of gatherings on the Chesapeake as well
>>> as well as several mid-winter Chesapeake PlanJams - the last at my
>>> house last January with 30 some people. At this year's Boat
>>> Show  (and last year's) we had lunch with Rhodes owners from the list
>>> in a mini-gathering organized on the list. These things won't happen
>>> if people sign off the list because of the content or the tone of the
>>> conversations.
>>>
>>> In the early days, if there were angry outbursts and hard feelings
>>> they mostly went off list. One person (maybe two) did get banned when
>>> they couldn't abide by the charter. It was Michael's call. It was his
>>> list. Bill is right that Stan used to send people to the list but I
>>> don't think Stan ever claimed ownership. I know that we all have felt
>>> a great deal of gratitude to Stan for continuing to build and recycle
>>> the boats that we sail with such pleasure. For the most part we have
>>> tried to be helpful to General Boats. My guess is that the link to
>>> the list came off the GB website when politics started getting ugly.
>>> I'm pretty sure Stan still sends people to the list but probably only
>>> after they have bought the boat or at least have made the decision to
>>> buy the boat.
>>>
>>> The list charter was a group effort by members of the list to make
>>> rules that we could live with and still get along with each other to
>>> everyone's benefit.
>>>
>>> Rummy, who just left the list, through his own good efforts compiled
>>> an owners list that was available to any member in good standing of
>>> that list. It was invaluable as we got to know each other. When Rummy
>>> decided to pack it in, I volunteered to take on the owners list but
>>> life intervened and I didn't get to it. By the time I was ready to
>>> take up the effort the political problems were in full swing and I
>>> wasn't feeling all that eager (not a good excuse just the truth about
>>> how I felt at the time). If the list becomes tolerable again, maybe
>>> I'll make another attempt.
>>>
>>> Mary Lou
>>> 1991 R22  Fretless
>>> Rock Hall, MD
>>>
>>>
>>> At 12:06 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote:
>>>
>>>> That's good history to know.
>>>> When I signed up about 2 years ago, (that seams to be when it started
>>>> downhill) I was refered to by Stan also. I saw all the political crap &
>>>>
>>> was
>>>
>>>> dissappointed....and said so. I got a shorter version of the same
>>>> explanation & then understood. I was told this was not Stans list....by
>>>> Stan.
>>>> I agree with you nothing should be done different, the charter covers it.
>>>>
>>> My
>>>
>>>> problem is that some people insult you in such a nice way, it's allowed
>>>>
>>> ...&
>>>
>>>> when someone comes right out & says it, it's a bad thing. I was
>>>>
>>> disgusted by
>>>
>>>> some of the things said about our last President, I just as disgusted that
>>>> some people won't even give the new one a chance.
>>>> Jb
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:32 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello Sheriff?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Jb,
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael built and maintained Stan's website.  In return, Stan
>>>>>
>>> would tow
>>>
>>>>> Michael's boat to Edenton every winter, upgrade it, install
>>>>>
>>> "test"
>>>
>>>>> equipment, bottom paint it, and get it back to Michael in time for an
>>>>> early launch.
>>>>>
>>>>> At some point, Michael suggested the formation of an email group so
>>>>>
>>> that
>>>
>>>>> people could ask each other all the questions that Stan couldn't
>>>>> possibly respond to...even if he owned a computer, and knew how to
>>>>>
>>> use it.
>>>
>>>>> Michael put links on Stan's website so both existing owners and
>>>>>
>>> newbies
>>>
>>>>> could find "da list".  (Remember, Google is only 10 years
>>>>>
>>> old -- it was
>>>
>>>>> difficult for anyone other than a computer geek to find anything on
>>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>> Internet, and email lists were not indexed.)  Almost everyone who got
>>>>>
>>> on
>>>
>>>>> "da list" at that time was sent here by Stan, both from his
>>>>>
>>> website and
>>>
>>>>> from in-person recommendations both before and after boat purchases.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know I got here because Stan suggested I could learn a lot from
>>>>>
>>> people
>>>
>>>>> on the list.  I know many others who got here the same way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael is one of the smartest people on the planet.  In the early
>>>>>
>>> days,
>>>
>>>>> he would answer 9 out of 10 questions asked.  He talked to Stan
>>>>> regularly, and when he didn't know the answer, and felt it was a
>>>>>
>>> good
>>>
>>>>> question, he would call Stan after hours and come up with the
>>>>>
>>> technical
>>>
>>>>> information the rest of us sought.
>>>>>
>>>>> We hopped onto the Sailnet list server at some point.  They wanted to
>>>>>
>>> be
>>>
>>>>> a web portal for sailers.  They offered free list-hosting.  As they
>>>>>
>>> grew
>>>
>>>>> they encountered growing pains.  They switched software, and lost
>>>>> everyone on the list in the process.  Those of us who cared,
>>>>>
>>> contacted
>>>
>>>>> everyone else back-channel and told them what had happened and what
>>>>>
>>> they
>>>
>>>>> had to do to get back on the list.  I believe we had 34 members at
>>>>>
>>> that
>>>
>>>>> point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then Sailnet started selling things, and made a rule that no one else
>>>>> could sell anything on any list they hosted.  Then they started
>>>>> monitoring lists to enforce the rule, and bouncing out people who
>>>>> violated their rule.
>>>>>
>>>>> We started looking for another way to run our list, and Michael came
>>>>>
>>> up
>>>
>>>>> with the Mailman Program which he hosted and maintained as
>>>>>
>>> administrator.
>>>
>>>>> At some point Stan learned to use a computer, and started providing
>>>>> information directly to the list. What a treat!  When somebody got
>>>>> something wrong, or had a better way to solve a problem, the guy who
>>>>> built the boat would actually discuss the issue on an open forum!
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael was plugged into the blogging community before anyone used
>>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>> word "blog".  He would get jokes, and "insider
>>>>>
>>> info" and post it to the
>>>
>>>>> list long before any other sailor had access to what he posted.  Some
>>>>> complained that it was "off-topic" but Stan always said he
>>>>>
>>> loved it, and
>>>
>>>>> didn't give a damn if anyone didn't think it was funny, or
>>>>>
>>> disagreed
>>>
>>>>> with anyone else's political views.  And, he said, living in
>>>>>
>>> Edenton, he
>>>
>>>>> wasn't locally exposed to a lot of cultural stuff he took for
>>>>>
>>> granted
>>>
>>>>> living near NYC.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bring it on" said Stan, "and don't worry about
>>>>>
>>> killing a boat
>>>
>>>>> sale--this is much more fun--be yourself--respect each other--Michael
>>>>> taught me how to use the delete key."
>>>>>
>>>>> Food fights would erupt from time to time over the exact same issues.
>>>>> Politics and Religion were both banned at some point, so people
>>>>>
>>> started
>>>
>>>>> inserting their political views in the form of often vicious jokes.
>>>>>
>>> The
>>>
>>>>> only way anyone could object to the joke was to explain it in
>>>>>
>>> political
>>>
>>>>> terms. The prohibition against Politics was dropped with the mandate
>>>>> that all political discussion had to be preceded on the subject line
>>>>>
>>> by
>>>
>>>>> the word Politics:
>>>>>
>>>>> How to use filters to toss all email labeled "Politics:"
>>>>>
>>> into anyone's
>>>
>>>>> junk folder was repeatedly explained so that anyone not wishing to
>>>>>
>>> see
>>>
>>>>> this stuff would never even know others on the list were actively
>>>>> discussing these topics.
>>>>>
>>>>> Later, a rule was instituted mandating that Jokes: also appears on
>>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>> subject line when the content is jokes.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> At some point the list turned on Stan.  It wasn't anyone's
>>>>>
>>> fault, it was
>>>
>>>>> just the normal evolution of the Internet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of the people who had been with the list for a long time opted
>>>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>>> purchase other boats. They started singing the praises of their
>>>>>
>>> boats,
>>>
>>>>> on Stan's list, and urging others to trade in Stan's boat for
>>>>>
>>> one
>>>
>>>>> bigger, or better, or more ostentatious.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then people who would never have been able to find each other started
>>>>> selling boats directly to each other, and cutting Stan out of the
>>>>>
>>> middle
>>>
>>>>> -- "Stan offered me $10,000 for this boat, so you know he's
>>>>>
>>> going to
>>>
>>>>> sell it for $20,000 -- I'll sell it to anyone on the list for
>>>>>
>>> $15,000."
>>>
>>>>> Then people started offering to fabricate parts for Stan's
>>>>>
>>> boat--"Send
>>>
>>>>> me the specifications on that trailer, and I'll make one for you
>>>>>
>>> for 1/2
>>>
>>>>> what Stan would charge."
>>>>>
>>>>> Over time they hijacked Stan's list.  Stan objected several
>>>>>
>>> times, and
>>>
>>>>> many people on the list went out of their way to only buy through
>>>>>
>>> Stan.
>>>
>>>>> But, in the end, Stan stopped participating on a regular basis, and
>>>>>
>>> took
>>>
>>>>> the list off his web site.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, it's still Stan's list, and Stan is still the common
>>>>>
>>> link for most
>>>
>>>>> of us.  He can't use it as a sales tool anymore, but he still can
>>>>>
>>> have
>>>
>>>>> fun with old friends...just as it says in the charter.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have posted the charter below so all can see what they signed up
>>>>>
>>> for,
>>>
>>>>> if they never took the time to read it previously.
>>>>>
>>>>> In prior years, Michael would post the Charter at this point--he
>>>>>
>>> wrote
>>>
>>>>> it, but he seems disinclined to do so, so here it is:
>>>>>
>>>>> *CHARTER*:  *rhodes22*-list at ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=0>
>>>
>>>>> The *rhodes*-list at ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=1>
>>>
>>>>> group will be  open to discussion of all
>>>>> subjects specifically referring to *Rhodes* sailboats  or  *Rhodes*
>>>>> sailors. The focus of this group includes, but is not limited  to:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Encouraging the understanding and discussion of *Rhodes* sailboats
>>>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>>>> *Rhodes* sailors, in the many ways people wish to define it.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Acting  as a source of information for  *Rhodes* sailboats or
>>>>>
>>> *Rhodes*
>>>
>>>>> sailors  worldwide and for people planning  to buy/sell/repair/learn
>>>>> about *Rhodes*  sailboats or *Rhodes* sailors.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Providing a forum for the development and  promotion *Rhodes*
>>>>>
>>> sailboats
>>>
>>>>> or *Rhodes* sailors'  culture, history,  traditions and economy.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Any other subject that might be found at a  sailor's bar or the
>>>>> Clubhouse Bar, Including *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes*  sailors'
>>>>>
>>> travels,
>>>
>>>>> events, family, jokes, quotations, pets, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> * The  level of discussion does not have to be fit for a child, but
>>>>> some good taste  is expected.
>>>>>
>>>>> Binaries and Formatting: The posting of encoded binaries  (e.g.
>>>>> pictures, compressed files, etc.) to  *rhodes*-list at ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=2>
>>>
>>>>> is  not
>>>>> allowed, the list server will remove them. Please use mixed case
>>>>>
>>> when
>>>
>>>>> posting (Upper and lower case letters), typing words in  uppercase
>>>>> means you are SHOUTING.
>>>>>
>>>>> Quoting: Place new material at the  top of the post and quote what
>>>>>
>>> you
>>>
>>>>> are replying to below. That makes it  simple to find out what is
>>>>>
>>> being
>>>
>>>>> said. You are encouraged to edit down the  quoted material.
>>>>>
>>>>> HTML mail: Allot of the email programs (Netscape and  outlook) that
>>>>>
>>> can
>>>
>>>>> send their email with embedded HTML. Embedded HTML can  cause some of
>>>>> the list members to have trouble reading their mail due to
>>>>>
>>> "browser
>>>
>>>>> wars", not reading their mail with a web browser and double
>>>>>
>>> messages
>>>
>>>>> in digest mode. Member are encouraged to set their programs to  send
>>>>> "text" email.
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject Line: Please set or change the subject line  to reflect the
>>>>> true subject of the  post. for example "Subject: anchors"
>>>>>
>>> might be
>>>
>>>>> turned into "Subject: gastank was anchors". If a joke (or
>>>>>
>>> any
>>>
>>>>> questionable material) is being posted please indicate it on  the
>>>>> subject line, for example "Subject: Monday's Humor
>>>>>
>>> (jokes)"
>>>
>>>>> Netiquette: Posts to the group are expected to be considerate of
>>>>>
>>> other
>>>
>>>>> readers. Personal abuse, flames, and obscenities are  *not*
>>>>> appreciated; but we are sailors.......
>>>>>
>>>>> Anonymous email: It is  expected that users will provide their name
>>>>>
>>> in
>>>
>>>>> the email and will sign  same.  We like to know who we're talking
>>>>>
>>> to.
>>>
>>>>> Social  Interaction/Manners: To a certain extent, the interaction is
>>>>> about what you  would expect in any informal social setting, for
>>>>> example, a bar.  It is  recommended that you get to know people first
>>>>> and introduce yourself (about  the same social rules that you would
>>>>>
>>> use
>>>
>>>>> to meet any new group of people).  There is a high level of chitchat
>>>>>
>>> on
>>>
>>>>> the list, and what you might think is  insulting to a group or region
>>>>> might only be people kidding each other after  knowing them for
>>>>>
>>> years.
>>>
>>>>> As in any bar, the subjects of politics and religion  can lead to
>>>>> heated augments and bar fights. These might be best  avoided.
>>>>>
>>>>> The need to participate: It is recognized that a group is only
>>>>>
>>> whoever
>>>
>>>>> post to it, no more and no less. We can only talk about what  people
>>>>> post about. You earn respect on the list by postings and trying  to
>>>>> help each other, you can not demand it. Most sailing topics we  have
>>>>> talked about already, We chit chat in the mean time waiting to
>>>>>
>>> answer
>>>
>>>>> questions or a new subject/story.  If you want to know  something,
>>>>> please post it, the more detail the better. If someone is trying  to
>>>>> help you please answer their reasonable questions. If you can  help
>>>>> someone, again post it, Try to repay the knowledge you  gained.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>
>>>>> Jb wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> why do keep saying this is Stans list?
>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List"
>>>>>>
>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:53 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello Sheriff?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who made you the Jello Sheriff?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is Stan's list, not yours, and he just told us he
>>>>>>>
>>> doesn't believe
>>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>>>>> Jello Sheriff is required.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shall I tell you who I think is being a PITA?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you think it will improve the list if everyone conforms
>>>>>>>
>>> to your
>>>
>>>> views
>>>>
>>>>>>> of who is using "mean sprite"?  Only people who
>>>>>>>
>>> submit jokes you find
>>>
>>>>>>> funny can remain on the list?  If you don't
>>>>>>>
>>> laugh--they're out!
>>>
>>>>>>> Whatever happened to that rule about throwing people off the
>>>>>>>
>>> list if
>>>
>>>>>>> they don't own a Rhodes-22?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How about syntax rules, and spelling rules?  That should be
>>>>>>>
>>> fun.
>>>
>>>>>>> Better drop the rule about people on ego trips.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, this charter change must be submitted to the
>>>>>>>
>>> entire list as
>>>
>>>>>>> per our charter.  Does Rummy still get a vote?  How about
>>>>>>>
>>> Ben?  How
>>>
>>>>>>> about people under your review?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> LOL,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your dear friend,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> michael meltzer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He is the working idea.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1)      Is the problem is not so much the off subject
>>>>>>>>
>>> post, as long as
>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> are entertaining there is no real issue, funny,
>>>>>>>>
>>> informative, nice..
>>>
>>>>>>>> 2)      The problem is the people using "mean
>>>>>>>>
>>> sprite" , pounding on
>>>
>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>> people on ego trips that they must change the world by
>>>>>>>>
>>> changing the
>>>
>>>> view
>>>>
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the members, being a PITA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To that end.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1)      in the short: people using "mean
>>>>>>>>
>>> sprite" , pounding on people,
>>>
>>>>>>>> people on ego trips that they must change the world by
>>>>>>>>
>>> changing the
>>>
>>>> view
>>>>
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the members. Can and will be suspended buy me and john
>>>>>>>>
>>> at our whim,
>>>
>>>> using
>>>>
>>>>>>>> current tools. Willing to listen to some group feedback
>>>>>>>>
>>> but really
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>>>>> right to suspend and remove PITA's
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2)      in the long term both me and john no not have
>>>>>>>>
>>> the time for
>>>
>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thinking along the lines of a "trusted" group
>>>>>>>>
>>> of people can numerated
>>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>>>>>> poster for suspend/remove/band that a larger group of
>>>>>>>>
>>> list members can
>>>
>>>>>>>> vote
>>>>>>>> on(the jury, maybe post #/length of time on the list
>>>>>>>>
>>> weighted). Web
>>>
>>>> based
>>>>
>>>>>>>> system. Me and john then become the "apples board.
>>>>>>>>
>>> The real question
>>>
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>> cases would be are you a PITA and worth it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3)      there is a question about a wiki(ben), we tried
>>>>>>>>
>>> it once but
>>>
>>>> let's
>>>>
>>>>>>>> try again, it could have broad applies
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
>>>>>>>>
>>> mailing list go to
>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>
>>> list go to
>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>>>
>>> go to
>>>
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
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>>>> 12/31/2008 8:44 AM
>>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
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>>
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