[Rhodes22-list] History

Bill Effros bill at effros.com
Wed Dec 31 19:12:18 EST 2008


PS -- Happy New Year John-Boy!

Bill Effros wrote:
> Your wife is too young.   She wasn't in Shanghai when the real Jews were 
> teaching the Chinese how to be Jews.  They taught the Chinese better 
> than they taught their own children.  They taught their children to be 
> WASPS--and look where that's got us.
>
> But, Not to Worry, the Chinese will teach our children's children how to 
> be Jews.  And then the cycle will repeat.  We can all eat traife with 
> chopsticks -- it's a start.
>
> Bill Effros
>
>
>
> Brad Haslett wrote:
>   
>> Bill,
>>
>> As a Jew, I think you will appreciate this - I just installed 1.2G
>> extra memory in my laptop from Computer Memory Outlet for $32.  My
>> wife is not impressed with you Jews or your ability to buy things on
>> sale.  She thinks I got robbed.  She says you guys are amateurs!
>>
>> I don't give a shit about your ilk or hers, all I know is you guys can
>> insult me at 4 times the speed and it booted on the first try!
>>
>> Brad
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> Mary Lou,
>>>
>>> You've been around long enough to enjoy the chuckle of me being selected
>>> for the same team as Herb, Brad, and Ed.
>>>
>>> You can look back as far as you like--my tone has not changed.  My jokes
>>> have not changed. My values have not changed.
>>>
>>> It's just that my former teammates are mad at me because I believe they
>>> have put aside all the values they said they stood for, and I have said so.
>>>
>>> As a Jew, half of whose family was wiped out in WWII, I am very
>>> frightened any time the "good citizens" decide "the end justifies the
>>> means".
>>>
>>> I think that is what is happening in this country, and I will not stop
>>> saying so, even if Michael and John hijack this list, and prevent people
>>> they disagree with from presenting their views.
>>>
>>> Bill Effros
>>>
>>> PS -- Ed, Brad, Herb and most of the other vocal members of this list
>>> have also been extremely giving and have helped others repeatedly while
>>> many of the lurkers who would inherit the list simply grumbled about the
>>> efforts of others--just as they are doing now.
>>>
>>> Lurkers do not a list make.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mary Lou Troy wrote:
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Sorry Brad, I may go sailing in bad weather and I do leave my house
>>>> regularly but I don't feel I should need a Kevlar vest to participate
>>>> in an email list with people who like the same kind of boat I do. A
>>>> sense of humor and a positive attitude maybe but not a Kevlar vest. I
>>>> haven't been able to see much to be humorous about around here lately
>>>> even though some of the jokes have been funny. I feel my positive
>>>> attitude has been beaten out of me. This has gone a long way beyond
>>>> "a few barbs".
>>>>
>>>> I included Rummy as an example of what list members used to be
>>>> inspired to do to "help each other". I saw his actions and those of
>>>> countless others as being in the spirit of the charter and being
>>>> examples of what we are in danger of losing if we all decide we don't
>>>> want to be bothered. I haven't been in touch with him. I don't know
>>>> if he'll be back. I don't know who will be here next week. I'm hoping
>>>> that there will be a list that I want to participate in.
>>>>
>>>> Mary Lou
>>>> 1991 R22  Fretless
>>>> Rock Hall, MD
>>>>
>>>> At 01:39 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Mary Lou,
>>>>>
>>>>> Rummy was one of the biggest antagonists on the list.  Trust me,
>>>>> he'll get tired of lurking and come back.  Everyone, get over your
>>>>> pity party and put on your Kevlar vests.  For goodness sakes, if you
>>>>> can't take a few barbs in cyberspace you probably shouldn't leave
>>>>> your house on a sailboat where the weather could turn nasty and the
>>>>> boom could knock your head off!
>>>>>
>>>>> Brad
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Wed, 12/31/08, Mary Lou Troy <mtroy at atlanticbb.net> wrote:
>>>>> From: Mary Lou Troy <mtroy at atlanticbb.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] History
>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 12:27 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's the history as I remember it dating at least to early 1998.
>>>>> Similar to Bill's but differing in a few key factors. (If people are
>>>>> going to be using the archives for list history I figured I ought to
>>>>> post the history as I remember it.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe the early list was a Sail-net email list. Sailnet was
>>>>> founded in 1994. I don't know when they started their email lists. I
>>>>> think I found the Rhodes list about the same time we purchased
>>>>> Fretless in the Spring of 1998 maybe a bit before. It was not a
>>>>> Rhodes 22 list but a list for admirers and owners of any Rhodes
>>>>> designed boat. The R22 owners quickly overwhelmed the list and it
>>>>> became a de facto R22 list. We were delighted to find each other. If
>>>>> there was another  email list before that, it was not a link on the
>>>>> GB website in early 1996 when we started looking at the R22. There
>>>>> was evidently a print R22 Owners Association newsletter that ceased
>>>>> publication in 1991. Sailnet changed owners several times with
>>>>> impacts on email list reliability and the rules for the list. At some
>>>>> point (2002) our esteemed Michael Meltzer (who did indeed help GB get
>>>>> into the web business in the 90s and was a long-time R22 owner)
>>>>> offered to host the list on his server. He put it together in one
>>>>> night using the rhodes22.org domain which he had already used in
>>>>> setting up the Rhodes owners site on his server. That was the genesis
>>>>> of the current list. For a while people were on both lists but
>>>>> eventually the Sailnet traffic withered away and Sailnet got rid of
>>>>> their email lists completely earlier this year. They still have
>>>>> forums (bulletin boards) and there is still a Rhodes forum there.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the early days of the list there were several gatherings of Rhodes
>>>>> owners (and wannabees). There was a memorable dinner at Carroll's
>>>>> Creek Restaurant and another at Buddy's in Annapolis after the Boat
>>>>> Show. I remember Cam Whetstone carrying his new centerboard cap
>>>>> around as we waited to get in and Michael Meltzer checking email on
>>>>> his laptop long before any of the rest of us had heard of aircards.
>>>>> This was followed by a couple years when Jan Eyres (event planner
>>>>> extraordinaire) and I (but mostly Jan) planned an after hours catered
>>>>> dinner at the Annapolis Boat Show. Michael arranged the passes to get
>>>>> us in after-hours. Somewhere I still have the pics from that. There
>>>>> was a memorable gathering at Kentucky Lake. We didn't go but it is
>>>>> memorialized with pics on the Rhodes owners website. There was a
>>>>> marriage. There were a couple of gatherings on the Chesapeake as well
>>>>> as well as several mid-winter Chesapeake PlanJams - the last at my
>>>>> house last January with 30 some people. At this year's Boat
>>>>> Show  (and last year's) we had lunch with Rhodes owners from the list
>>>>> in a mini-gathering organized on the list. These things won't happen
>>>>> if people sign off the list because of the content or the tone of the
>>>>> conversations.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the early days, if there were angry outbursts and hard feelings
>>>>> they mostly went off list. One person (maybe two) did get banned when
>>>>> they couldn't abide by the charter. It was Michael's call. It was his
>>>>> list. Bill is right that Stan used to send people to the list but I
>>>>> don't think Stan ever claimed ownership. I know that we all have felt
>>>>> a great deal of gratitude to Stan for continuing to build and recycle
>>>>> the boats that we sail with such pleasure. For the most part we have
>>>>> tried to be helpful to General Boats. My guess is that the link to
>>>>> the list came off the GB website when politics started getting ugly.
>>>>> I'm pretty sure Stan still sends people to the list but probably only
>>>>> after they have bought the boat or at least have made the decision to
>>>>> buy the boat.
>>>>>
>>>>> The list charter was a group effort by members of the list to make
>>>>> rules that we could live with and still get along with each other to
>>>>> everyone's benefit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rummy, who just left the list, through his own good efforts compiled
>>>>> an owners list that was available to any member in good standing of
>>>>> that list. It was invaluable as we got to know each other. When Rummy
>>>>> decided to pack it in, I volunteered to take on the owners list but
>>>>> life intervened and I didn't get to it. By the time I was ready to
>>>>> take up the effort the political problems were in full swing and I
>>>>> wasn't feeling all that eager (not a good excuse just the truth about
>>>>> how I felt at the time). If the list becomes tolerable again, maybe
>>>>> I'll make another attempt.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mary Lou
>>>>> 1991 R22  Fretless
>>>>> Rock Hall, MD
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At 12:06 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> That's good history to know.
>>>>>> When I signed up about 2 years ago, (that seams to be when it started
>>>>>> downhill) I was refered to by Stan also. I saw all the political crap &
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>> was
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> dissappointed....and said so. I got a shorter version of the same
>>>>>> explanation & then understood. I was told this was not Stans list....by
>>>>>> Stan.
>>>>>> I agree with you nothing should be done different, the charter covers it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>> My
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> problem is that some people insult you in such a nice way, it's allowed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>> ...&
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> when someone comes right out & says it, it's a bad thing. I was
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>> disgusted by
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> some of the things said about our last President, I just as disgusted that
>>>>>> some people won't even give the new one a chance.
>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:32 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello Sheriff?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Jb,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael built and maintained Stan's website.  In return, Stan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> would tow
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Michael's boat to Edenton every winter, upgrade it, install
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> "test"
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> equipment, bottom paint it, and get it back to Michael in time for an
>>>>>>> early launch.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At some point, Michael suggested the formation of an email group so
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> people could ask each other all the questions that Stan couldn't
>>>>>>> possibly respond to...even if he owned a computer, and knew how to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> use it.
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Michael put links on Stan's website so both existing owners and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> newbies
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> could find "da list".  (Remember, Google is only 10 years
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> old -- it was
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> difficult for anyone other than a computer geek to find anything on
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Internet, and email lists were not indexed.)  Almost everyone who got
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> on
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> "da list" at that time was sent here by Stan, both from his
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> website and
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> from in-person recommendations both before and after boat purchases.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know I got here because Stan suggested I could learn a lot from
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> people
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> on the list.  I know many others who got here the same way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael is one of the smartest people on the planet.  In the early
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> days,
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> he would answer 9 out of 10 questions asked.  He talked to Stan
>>>>>>> regularly, and when he didn't know the answer, and felt it was a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> good
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> question, he would call Stan after hours and come up with the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> technical
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> information the rest of us sought.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We hopped onto the Sailnet list server at some point.  They wanted to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> be
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> a web portal for sailers.  They offered free list-hosting.  As they
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> grew
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> they encountered growing pains.  They switched software, and lost
>>>>>>> everyone on the list in the process.  Those of us who cared,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> contacted
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> everyone else back-channel and told them what had happened and what
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> they
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> had to do to get back on the list.  I believe we had 34 members at
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then Sailnet started selling things, and made a rule that no one else
>>>>>>> could sell anything on any list they hosted.  Then they started
>>>>>>> monitoring lists to enforce the rule, and bouncing out people who
>>>>>>> violated their rule.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We started looking for another way to run our list, and Michael came
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> up
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> with the Mailman Program which he hosted and maintained as
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> administrator.
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> At some point Stan learned to use a computer, and started providing
>>>>>>> information directly to the list. What a treat!  When somebody got
>>>>>>> something wrong, or had a better way to solve a problem, the guy who
>>>>>>> built the boat would actually discuss the issue on an open forum!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael was plugged into the blogging community before anyone used
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> word "blog".  He would get jokes, and "insider
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> info" and post it to the
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> list long before any other sailor had access to what he posted.  Some
>>>>>>> complained that it was "off-topic" but Stan always said he
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> loved it, and
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> didn't give a damn if anyone didn't think it was funny, or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> disagreed
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> with anyone else's political views.  And, he said, living in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> Edenton, he
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> wasn't locally exposed to a lot of cultural stuff he took for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> granted
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> living near NYC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Bring it on" said Stan, "and don't worry about
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> killing a boat
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> sale--this is much more fun--be yourself--respect each other--Michael
>>>>>>> taught me how to use the delete key."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Food fights would erupt from time to time over the exact same issues.
>>>>>>> Politics and Religion were both banned at some point, so people
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> started
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> inserting their political views in the form of often vicious jokes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> The
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> only way anyone could object to the joke was to explain it in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> political
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> terms. The prohibition against Politics was dropped with the mandate
>>>>>>> that all political discussion had to be preceded on the subject line
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> by
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> the word Politics:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How to use filters to toss all email labeled "Politics:"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> into anyone's
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> junk folder was repeatedly explained so that anyone not wishing to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> see
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> this stuff would never even know others on the list were actively
>>>>>>> discussing these topics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Later, a rule was instituted mandating that Jokes: also appears on
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> subject line when the content is jokes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At some point the list turned on Stan.  It wasn't anyone's
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> fault, it was
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> just the normal evolution of the Internet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of the people who had been with the list for a long time opted
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> purchase other boats. They started singing the praises of their
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> boats,
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> on Stan's list, and urging others to trade in Stan's boat for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> one
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> bigger, or better, or more ostentatious.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then people who would never have been able to find each other started
>>>>>>> selling boats directly to each other, and cutting Stan out of the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> middle
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> -- "Stan offered me $10,000 for this boat, so you know he's
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> going to
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> sell it for $20,000 -- I'll sell it to anyone on the list for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> $15,000."
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Then people started offering to fabricate parts for Stan's
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> boat--"Send
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> me the specifications on that trailer, and I'll make one for you
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> for 1/2
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> what Stan would charge."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Over time they hijacked Stan's list.  Stan objected several
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> times, and
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> many people on the list went out of their way to only buy through
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> Stan.
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> But, in the end, Stan stopped participating on a regular basis, and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> took
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> the list off his web site.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But, it's still Stan's list, and Stan is still the common
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> link for most
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> of us.  He can't use it as a sales tool anymore, but he still can
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> have
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> fun with old friends...just as it says in the charter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have posted the charter below so all can see what they signed up
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> for,
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> if they never took the time to read it previously.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In prior years, Michael would post the Charter at this point--he
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> it, but he seems disinclined to do so, so here it is:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *CHARTER*:  *rhodes22*-list at ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=0>
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> The *rhodes*-list at ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=1>
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> group will be  open to discussion of all
>>>>>>> subjects specifically referring to *Rhodes* sailboats  or  *Rhodes*
>>>>>>> sailors. The focus of this group includes, but is not limited  to:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Encouraging the understanding and discussion of *Rhodes* sailboats
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> *Rhodes* sailors, in the many ways people wish to define it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Acting  as a source of information for  *Rhodes* sailboats or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> *Rhodes*
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> sailors  worldwide and for people planning  to buy/sell/repair/learn
>>>>>>> about *Rhodes*  sailboats or *Rhodes* sailors.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Providing a forum for the development and  promotion *Rhodes*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> sailboats
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> or *Rhodes* sailors'  culture, history,  traditions and economy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Any other subject that might be found at a  sailor's bar or the
>>>>>>> Clubhouse Bar, Including *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes*  sailors'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> travels,
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> events, family, jokes, quotations, pets, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * The  level of discussion does not have to be fit for a child, but
>>>>>>> some good taste  is expected.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Binaries and Formatting: The posting of encoded binaries  (e.g.
>>>>>>> pictures, compressed files, etc.) to  *rhodes*-list at ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=2>
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> is  not
>>>>>>> allowed, the list server will remove them. Please use mixed case
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> when
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> posting (Upper and lower case letters), typing words in  uppercase
>>>>>>> means you are SHOUTING.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Quoting: Place new material at the  top of the post and quote what
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> you
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> are replying to below. That makes it  simple to find out what is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> being
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> said. You are encouraged to edit down the  quoted material.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HTML mail: Allot of the email programs (Netscape and  outlook) that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> can
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> send their email with embedded HTML. Embedded HTML can  cause some of
>>>>>>> the list members to have trouble reading their mail due to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> "browser
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> wars", not reading their mail with a web browser and double
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> messages
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> in digest mode. Member are encouraged to set their programs to  send
>>>>>>> "text" email.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject Line: Please set or change the subject line  to reflect the
>>>>>>> true subject of the  post. for example "Subject: anchors"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> might be
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> turned into "Subject: gastank was anchors". If a joke (or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> any
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> questionable material) is being posted please indicate it on  the
>>>>>>> subject line, for example "Subject: Monday's Humor
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> (jokes)"
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Netiquette: Posts to the group are expected to be considerate of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> other
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> readers. Personal abuse, flames, and obscenities are  *not*
>>>>>>> appreciated; but we are sailors.......
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anonymous email: It is  expected that users will provide their name
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> the email and will sign  same.  We like to know who we're talking
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> to.
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Social  Interaction/Manners: To a certain extent, the interaction is
>>>>>>> about what you  would expect in any informal social setting, for
>>>>>>> example, a bar.  It is  recommended that you get to know people first
>>>>>>> and introduce yourself (about  the same social rules that you would
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> use
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> to meet any new group of people).  There is a high level of chitchat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> on
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> the list, and what you might think is  insulting to a group or region
>>>>>>> might only be people kidding each other after  knowing them for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> years.
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> As in any bar, the subjects of politics and religion  can lead to
>>>>>>> heated augments and bar fights. These might be best  avoided.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The need to participate: It is recognized that a group is only
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> whoever
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> post to it, no more and no less. We can only talk about what  people
>>>>>>> post about. You earn respect on the list by postings and trying  to
>>>>>>> help each other, you can not demand it. Most sailing topics we  have
>>>>>>> talked about already, We chit chat in the mean time waiting to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> answer
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> questions or a new subject/story.  If you want to know  something,
>>>>>>> please post it, the more detail the better. If someone is trying  to
>>>>>>> help you please answer their reasonable questions. If you can  help
>>>>>>> someone, again post it, Try to repay the knowledge you  gained.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jb wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> why do keep saying this is Stans list?
>>>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:53 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello Sheriff?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Who made you the Jello Sheriff?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is Stan's list, not yours, and he just told us he
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>> doesn't believe
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> Jello Sheriff is required.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Shall I tell you who I think is being a PITA?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you think it will improve the list if everyone conforms
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>> to your
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> views
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> of who is using "mean sprite"?  Only people who
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>> submit jokes you find
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>> funny can remain on the list?  If you don't
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>> laugh--they're out!
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>> Whatever happened to that rule about throwing people off the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>> list if
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>> they don't own a Rhodes-22?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How about syntax rules, and spelling rules?  That should be
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>> fun.
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>> Better drop the rule about people on ego trips.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course, this charter change must be submitted to the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>> entire list as
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>> per our charter.  Does Rummy still get a vote?  How about
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>> Ben?  How
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>> about people under your review?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> LOL,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your dear friend,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> michael meltzer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> He is the working idea.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1)      Is the problem is not so much the off subject
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> post, as long as
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> are entertaining there is no real issue, funny,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> informative, nice..
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>>> 2)      The problem is the people using "mean
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> sprite" , pounding on
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>>> people on ego trips that they must change the world by
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> changing the
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> view
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the members, being a PITA
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To that end.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1)      in the short: people using "mean
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> sprite" , pounding on people,
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>>> people on ego trips that they must change the world by
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> changing the
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> view
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the members. Can and will be suspended buy me and john
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> at our whim,
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> using
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>> current tools. Willing to listen to some group feedback
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> but really
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>> right to suspend and remove PITA's
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2)      in the long term both me and john no not have
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> the time for
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>> Thinking along the lines of a "trusted" group
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> of people can numerated
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>> poster for suspend/remove/band that a larger group of
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> list members can
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>>> vote
>>>>>>>>>> on(the jury, maybe post #/length of time on the list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> weighted). Web
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> based
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>> system. Me and john then become the "apples board.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> The real question
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>> cases would be are you a PITA and worth it
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 3)      there is a question about a wiki(ben), we tried
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> it once but
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> let's
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>> try again, it could have broad applies
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>> mailing list go to
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>> list go to
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>> go to
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 12/31/2008 8:44 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date:
>>>>> 12/31/2008 8:44 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>>     
>>>       
>> __________________________________________________
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>>   
>>     
> __________________________________________________
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