[Rhodes22-list] political : marines in iraq...big al delete

Sun Jun 22 07:54:45 EDT 2008

Slim,

Your heart's in the right place but you seem to overlook that we're fighting
(and will be fighting) non-conventional enemies. Asymmetric warfare against
the US will continue regardless of who is elected as the next POTUS. These
GITMO units were fighting for an ideology, not a specific country that could
argue their rights under the Geneva Convention.  To use your logic that they
deserve their day in court and soldiers are burdened with collecting
evidence, I say that's totally unrealistic The simple solution is to not
take prisoners but shoot them on the spot and let God sort it out.  That's
how they treat our boys (unless there's some internet pr to be gained by
beheading them on tape).  The other solution is to turn them over to another
country and I suspect that is what will be the probable outcome. Once again,
the law of unintended consequences reigns supreme!

Brad

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 5:28 AM, Steven Alm <stevenalm at gmail.com> wrote:

> There are so many things wrong with that WSJ article, I hardly know where
> to
> start.  Let's see:
>
> "The writ of habeas corpus, a bulwark of domestic liberty, has been
> extended
> to foreign nationals whose only connection to the U.S. is their capture by
> our military."
>
> Their only connection is that they're in our custody.  How are we going to
> treat them?  In accordance with our values or not?  Any person, citizen or
> not, on US soil is afforded ALL the rights of any other US citizen.  The
> fact that the detainees are not on US soil is too subversive for me and I
> smell a rat.  The military is trying to find a loophole and circumvent
> American-style justice.  The Supremes are saying "No."
>
> "The Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court places many
> roadblocks
> in the path of a conviction for a crime, and for the loss of liberty, or
> even life, that may follow."
>
> Roadblocks?  Since when is getting a fair trial a roadblock?
>
> "Our motto remains: Let 100 guilty men go free before one innocent man is
> convicted."
>
> No.  Our motto is "innocent until proven guilty."
>
> "In fighting an enemy, there is no reason for the judicial branch to
> "check"
> the political branches."
>
> So is it better to let the military/admin go unchecked?  What a great idea!
>
> "The judiciary is not competent to make judgments about who is or is not an
> enemy combatant or, more generally, a threat to the U.S."
>
> The court is not making that judgement.  They're just saying it needs to
> adhere to reasonable standards when/if the prisoners are tried.
>
> "The imposition of the civilian criminal justice model on decisions
> regarding potentially hostile aliens raises a host of questions which the
> Court does not even attempt to answer in Boumediene."
>
> Such as--what?  Don't detainees have a right to a fair trial?
>
> "Must military personnel take notes in the field regarding the location,
> dress, and comportment of captives for later use in the "trials" mandated
> by
> the Supreme Court?"
>
> Of course.  Evidence is evidence.  Or should the detainees be subjected to
> mere hearsay?  "Um...I think he's an enemy so don't ask me for any
> details."
>
> "Can a detainee file a writ for habeas corpus immediately upon arriving at
> a
> U.S. military base like Guantanamo Bay?"
>
> Why not?  Any other low-life crack dealer in the US is afforded that right.
>
> "In fact, judgments regarding the detention or trial of enemies require
> training, experience, access to and understanding of intelligence."
>
> Agreed.  Who has this training, experience and understanding?  The guy that
> caught him and just thinks he's an enemy?  Doesn't he deserve council?
>  This
> is America!  Try the sons of bitches and let's see!  The military's
> closed-door approach stinks.  It's fascist.  It's secretive and it's Nazi.
> What are we afraid of?  The truth?
>
> "They cannot be reduced to a particular standard of proof in a courtroom
> setting. "
>
> Oh my god.  Did he really say that?  Do we need no proof?
>
> "God help us if the judiciary makes such a mistake and releases the next
> Mohammad Atta into our midst."
>
> That's the whole point of a fair trial.  To prove it one way or the other
> if
> this guy's a criminal.  Sure, mistakes are sometimes made and trials are
> sometimes tainted.  Criminals sometimes get released on technicalities.
> This is no reason to throw out our judicial system and lock guys up and
> throw away the key unless they're found to be enemies in a legitimate court
> trial.
>
> Have we learned nothing from the past?  Did we really need to detain every
> single Japanese-American in the camps during WWII?  What nonsense.
>
> This whole Gitmo thing is completely unamerican.  I'd bet that some of the
> detainees are in fact guilty of being enemies but we can't, in good
> conscience cattle-call them all to their graves without a shred of proof or
> trial.  The Supremes got it right.
>
> Slim
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 10:34 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Good article. I yearn for the day when we'll have a presidential
> > candidate with the moxie to stand up and say "Hey, you seven guys are
> > each 1/9th of a branch of the government. I'm 1/1th of an EQUAL branch.
> > So, that decision that you made xxxxx years ago about Gitmo that walked
> > all over the area of responsibility given to me by the constitution -
> > well, take that decision, divide it up in to 5 pieces (spare the 4
> > Justices that "get it")  and shove it up their .... um, I mean, use it
> > for the toilet paper it should be."
> >
> > Where is the spirit of Abe Lincoln when we need it?
> >
> > Brad Haslett wrote:
> > > Herb,
> > >
> > > Hope this link works -
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121400406620193453.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries
> > >
> > > If it doesn't, let me know and I'll just send the article (I have a
> > > subscription to the WSJ).
> > >
> > > Did you read the story in the MSM about the recently released GITMO
> > prisoner
> > > who was caught, AGAIN, killing our boys?  Probably not because it
> doesn't
> > > fit the story line.  Now Barry O just this week was showing his
> ignorance
> > of
> > > history once again (his friends in college say even today he wasn't
> > > interested in history) by saying we should handle combatants like we
> did
> > > Nazi's at Nuremberg. Uh, Barry, hello!  The Nuremberg trials were not
> run
> > > according to US jurisprudence, the defendants were not accorded an
> > appeal,
> > > and THEY WERE EXECUTED.  Since the GITMO boys chose not to belong to a
> > > regular army, wear uniforms, and in general, conform to the Geneva
> > > Conference standards, they ought to be happy they get three meals a day
> > and
> > > a nice climate along with their health care.
> > >
> > > What our men and women have had to go through trying to fight a PC and
> > media
> > > war in Iraq is very troubling.  The fact that they are succeeding and
> get
> > so
> > > little positive press coverage for their heroic efforts  is even more
> > > troubling.
> > >
> > > Brad
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 8:31 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> 3-4 years back, one of my daughters was was engaged to a marine who'd
> > >> served two tours in Iraq (they later broke off the engagement). He
> > >> brought home a raw video of a in "insurgent" being killed. He showed
> the
> > >> raw video of the insurgent firing at a building with marines, AND at
> the
> > >> location the from which the video was being shot. Both sides exchanged
> > >> fire for several rounds. The rifle the insurgent had looked antique,
> and
> > >> he was definitely out-gunned, but bullets is bullets, and old guns
> kill
> > >> too.
> > >>
> > >> He finally ran out of ammunition, and stood up from his crouching
> > >> position. I couldn't tell for sure if it was a "Send me to Allah"
> > >> moment, or just a confused guy not knowing what to do, but he didn't
> get
> > >> to stand long. He was gunned down, and on his knees in a few short
> > >> bursts. Firing stopped for a few seconds, then he moved a little, and
> > >> they tore him up with bullets.
> > >>
> > >> Then Mike showed me the media version of the same incident. It STARTED
> > >> when the insurgent stood up. Watching that view, you saw an "unarmed"
> > >> man (you had to look on the ground for his gun) standing up, getting
> > >> shot down, moving again, and being killed.
> > >>
> > >> I was disgusted. By the press.
> > >>
> > >> We trained ourselves, as a nation, to make pariahs out of those that
> are
> > >> risking their lives to devend our way of life. As a nation, we should
> be
> > >> ashamed at best. At worst, we deserve what's probably coming down the
> > >> road. When the best, brightest, and bravest decide that we're no
> longer
> > >> worth it, we're in trouble.
> > >>
> > >> Brad Haslett wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Herb,
> > >>>
> > >>> When the "puppy" story broke it reminded me of a story about my dad
> > that
> > >>>
> > >> was
> > >>
> > >>> included in a book one of his unit members wrote about their
> > experiences
> > >>>
> > >> in
> > >>
> > >>> WW2.  Dad and another Mid Western farm boy knew how to butcher, so
> when
> > >>>
> > >> they
> > >>
> > >>> had some down time (which wasn't often) they were known to 'liberate'
> a
> > >>> French cow and feed their fellow soldiers steaks.  I can see the
> > USAToday
> > >>> coverage of it now: "US Soldier Brutally Hacks Cow In Small Pieces".
> > >>>
> > >>> Brad
> > >>>
> > >>> On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Herb Parsons <
> hparsons at parsonsys.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> John, the military hasn't changed that much, the capabilities of the
> > >>>> information age have changed. My step-father was an officer, had had
> > >>>> some pretty "interesting" stories about some of the discipline
> issues
> > he
> > >>>> saw dealt with.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The military, like any other organization, is going to have some bad
> > >>>> apples. For every one of those stories you hear about, there are
> > >>>> thousands of stories about good men and women doing their job.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> john Belanger wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> i am a veteran. i served my country during the cuban missle crisis.
> > we
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> had lots of kids from all over and occassionally they got in trouble
> > >>>>
> > >> ashore.
> > >>
> > >>>> but we did not have the kind of incidents that seem to be more and
> > more
> > >>>> common in the services now. these two enlisted marines were punished
> > for
> > >>>> their actions but only after a video surfaced, like at abu graib.
> what
> > >>>>
> > >> did
> > >>
> > >>>> they get....suspension of their va benfits.....loss of opportunity
> to
> > be
> > >>>> buried in a military graveyard? this #$%^%#$#@$ has to stop and
> > someone
> > >>>>
> > >> in
> > >>
> > >>>> authority has to go to jail. not just get separated or  passed over
> > for
> > >>>> promotion. one incident like this puts our policy efforts back into
> > the
> > >>>> stone age. i'm ashamed. john b
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>
> >
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080612/ap_on_re_us/marine_youtube;_ylt=Av9MAiCYGAu1ET.1z93N5zqs0NUE
> > >>
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