[Rhodes22-list] Rik S., a question of when life begins and Ben C.'s comment thereon

Herb Parsons hparsons at parsonsys.com
Wed Sep 10 19:40:12 EDT 2008


Whatever


Rik Sandberg wrote:
> Herb,
>
> Seems then that we agree on the fetus's rights.
>
> I don't try to speak for others.
>
> Rik
>
> Ayn Rand was a prophet - - it isn't my fault
>
>
>
> Hank wrote:
>   
>> Rik,
>>
>> I am 100% behind Herb on this and here is my reasoning.  The government
>> regulates choices everyday.  If you choose to rob a store, the gov't
>> regulations provide for punishment.  The issue is whether or not an abortion
>> should be considered criminal.  In my mind and according to my faith, all
>> life is sacred, from the fetus a conception to the convicted murderer in
>> prison.  We do not have the right it indiscriminately take a life.  I
>> believe that life begins at conception and not some arbitrary point along
>> the path towards birth.
>>
>> Hank
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> Herb,
>>>
>>> Nothing I have said should be construed to mean I would not try to
>>> convince someone I know or might come in contact with that there might
>>> not be a better solution to her pregnancy than an abortion. And, in fact
>>> I have. I have said that I would not want an abortion in my family. I
>>> have also said that I do not feel it is the federal government's place
>>> to force their will on those who find themselves in the position of
>>> having to make their choice.
>>>
>>> That said, I have said what I think on this matter. I don't need, nor
>>> was I hoping to receive your approval.
>>>
>>> Rik
>>>
>>> Ayn Rand was a prophet - - it isn't my fault
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> You do understand that I haven't "decided" the issue in order to judge.
>>>>
>>>> A civilization decides to "dehumanize" members of one race. Members of
>>>> that civilization eventually come to their senses and decide to change
>>>> it. That's not judgment, that's trying to make a change. Now, if you
>>>> want me today to condemn those who practiced what was law at the time,
>>>> THAT would be judgment. I have no need, or desire, to judge them.
>>>>
>>>> Today, we as a civilization are allowing the massacre of millions of
>>>> unborn babies, primarily in the name of convenience for the mother. I
>>>> don't care to retroactive punish, or even publicly humiliate, those
>>>> individuals; however, I have no problem at all saying I believe that the
>>>> practice is wrong, and more importantly, I believe our nation's flip
>>>> attitude concerning the issue is wrong. Nor do I believe I'm doing
>>>> anything wrong in trying to change our "corporate" tolerance of the
>>>> practice. I'll continue to try to bring about that change for as long as
>>>> I'm around.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rik Sandberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Having worked in medical imaging, I can say with certainty that the old
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>> time
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> line is wrong.  It may be the law, but the law is wrong because we now
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>> have
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> pictures and other data to say it is wrong.  It is not a religious
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>> thing,
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> but now a factual thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>> What an unborn embryo/fetus looks like in a picture has virtually
>>>>> nothing to do with this issue. So, your facts are actually, just your
>>>>> opinion. It has been known for a long time, long before before pictures
>>>>> were possible, that, that clump of cells in a mothers womb was
>>>>> eventually going to become a baby.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I have said previously, I will have to answer to my god when all is
>>>>> said and done as will everyone else, whether they know or believe they
>>>>> have a god or not. That may be a fact or not, but no one will know that
>>>>> absolutely until it's too late for them to return to explain it to the
>>>>> rest of us. 'Til then I will continue to try my best to judge not, lest
>>>>> I be judged.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rik
>>>>>
>>>>> Ayn Rand was a prophet - - it isn't my fault
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tootle wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> RiK,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When Roe v Wade was decided there was not accurate information
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>> available to
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> answer the question with any certainty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, science and medical tools have advanced.  Just look at
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>> Ultrasound
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> pictures and ecocardiograms available today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Today nobody is willing to look at current medical information and say
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>> the
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> old time frame is not true, not accurate in light of modern
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>> information.
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> I originally thought that your's and Ben's arguement were acceptable.
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>  Ben
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> said, "It's a judgment call. It seems reasonable enough to me."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having worked in medical imaging, I can say with certainty that the old
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>> time
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> line is wrong.  It may be the law, but the law is wrong because we now
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>> have
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> pictures and other data to say it is wrong.  It is not a religious
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>> thing,
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> but now a factual thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where is Alice on this subject.  Still trying to start her Yamaha?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your opinion just walks away from killing.  When you are in a nursing
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>> home
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> and too feeble to stop them, will it be just as acceptable for them to
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>> put a
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> blanket over your head and do a Dr. Kevorkian?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, I have had to change my opinion because the facts and
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>> scientific
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>> information are now available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brad Haslett-2 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Rik,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm with you.  I only get to play God a few times a month when I'm
>>>>>>> giving a checkride and even then there's "higher powers" that will
>>>>>>> question my decisions.  Here's a couple of neat videos of real people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://kdka.com/local/Palin.Down.Syndrome.2.809737.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.wpxi.com/video/17384228/index.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>> wrote:
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not sure why you'd be asking me this question. I have already stated
>>>>>>>> that I am not in favor of abortion, but I do mind my own business.
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>                 
>>> Also,
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>>>> I am surely no expert on either the medical or scientific aspects of
>>>>>>>> pregnancy/child bearing so this question, as others have said, is
>>>>>>>> probably above my pay grade.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wouldn't like to see people performing the scenario, partial birth
>>>>>>>> abortion I believe it is called, that Todd was talking about. I'm
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>                 
>>> pretty
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>>>> sure that a fetus is truly a person by then.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One thing I do know is, nobody is going to have to answer for my sins
>>>>>>>> but me. As such, since I am not without sin, I have no business
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>                 
>>> casting
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>>>> stones.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rik
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ayn Rand was a prophet - - it isn't my fault
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tootle wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>> Rik,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Using modern science and modern medical and scientific tools, when
>>>>>>>>> exactly
>>>>>>>>> does life begin?  Disregard court opinions, which are just opinions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
>>>>>>>>> addendum, 'Making right choices in gray areas is difficult.  To be
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>> aware
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the dilemma is not enough.   There needs to be a moral sensitivity
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>> which
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>>>>> remembers to ask the right questions at the right time.  To know
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>> what is
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>>>>> good is not enough?  There is a difference between waking up and
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>> getting
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>>>>>> up.
>>>>>>>>> There must be specific decision for the right.  To be sensitive and
>>>>>>>>> aware is
>>>>>>>>> good.  To make proper decisions is better.'  Paraphrase of Bryan
>>>>>>>>> Crenshaw
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>                   
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>>>       
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>                 
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
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>>>>>         
>>>>>           
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