[Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway
BenCittadino
bencittadino at gmail.com
Tue Aug 4 21:48:58 EDT 2009
David;
I read the quote three times and I'm still pretty sure I don't get it. In
fact, I'm very sure I don't get it. I understand it, and I believe it (I
guess) but I don't get it. My gut tells me the farther down the board is the
the more resistance to heeling there would be (and my gut is substantial).
I love this thread because there are few people who know less than I do
about sailing, and this kind of fundamental advice is very helpful. Thanks
for taking the trouble to post that reference. I need to read it a few more
times.
BenCittadino
david.walker5 wrote:
>
> Lee,
>
> Credit where credit is due. I just ran across a reference in a book
> called
> "Better Sailing" by Richard Henderson. He also wrote a great book on
> heavy
> weather sailing called "Sea Sense". Any way, I quote from the book
>
> "...it is not always realized that heeling can be reduced on a boat having
> an unballasted centerboard by partially raising the board. This raises
> the
> center of lateral resistance (CLR), thereby reducing the heeling arm, the
> vertical distance between the CLR and the center of effort (the geometric
> center of the sails) ... In heavy weather, centerboardsshould almost never
> be raised all the way, however, because the boat will generally make too
> much leeway ar loose directional stability and also because the board acts
> as a roll damper."
>
> I think the key here is the "partially raising the board. Anyway good
> observation. If leeway is not a concern, raising the board can reduce
> heeling.
>
>
> David Walker
>
> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>
> Event Specialists
>
> 781-639-2707 Office
> 781-718-8690 Cell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Walker" <david.walker5 at comcast.net>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 2:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway
>
>
>> Yesterday I got the chance to sail in 5-10 kt wind and relatively flat
>> water. I set the boat up on a beam reach (apparent wind 90 degreees).
>> The
>> course was was 060 M by my steering compass. We were able to do about
>> .5 - 4 kts SOG by the GPS.
>>
>> With the board down our COG (Course over ground) was 055-057 M
>> With the board up out COG was 045-048 M
>>
>> Although my steering compass is not compensated and thus has unknown
>> deviation, since it was held steady at 060 the deviation has no
>> importance
>> here. Lowering the board reduced leeway by about 10 degrees. Lowering
>> the
>> board had no observed effect on SOG although wind variation could have
>> hidden a small effect. Based on these results I see no reason to sail
>> with
>> the board up unless in very thin water and one very good reason to sail
>> with
>> it down.
>>
>> David Walker
>>
>> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>>
>> Event Specialists
>>
>> 781-639-2707 Office
>> 781-718-8690 Cell
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Leland" <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 3:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim
>>
>>
>>>
>>> David,
>>>
>>> By "relatively flat" I certainly agree. On close reaches so far I've
>>> found
>>> that it's easier for me to get in the groove with about a 10-15 degree
>>> heel,
>>> which I consider relatively flat. Anything over that and I most always
>>> slow
>>> down.
>>>
>>> Reference your statement that there is no reason (healing, light air,
>>> heavy air) to sail on the wind with the board up, does the term "sail on
>>> the
>>> wind" mean close-hauled or any close reach? With the Rhodes' keel it is
>>> obviously able to sail on a close reach without the centerboard down.
>>> Many
>>> times I've experimented with the board up and down and it always creates
>>> enough drag to reduce speed.
>>>
>>> I don't disagree with your statement, "On a run, racing sailors will
>>> raise
>>> the board to reduce
>>> drag, but you will find that makes steering more difficult as the board
>>> and
>>> the rudder combine to create directional stability." However, that's
>>> all
>>> relative too. I typically sail with the board up on a close reach and
>>> balance the sails so there's no pressure on the tiller. See picture
>>> below
>>> (normally I do lock the tiller after balancing the sails). I am anxious
>>> to
>>> try the board down again. When moving around the boat to get and get
>>> rid
>>> of
>>> beer, stability is sometimes more important than speed.
>>>
>>> Lee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David Walker-19 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've tried to stay quiet while watching these posts fly by but I have
>>>> to
>>>> make a few comments.
>>>>
>>>> 1) The R22 sails basically like a big dinghy. It really wants to sail
>>>> relatively flat. This gives maximum depth to the CB, least wetted
>>>> surface
>>>> and best hull form factor in the water. All heel does is effectively
>>>> lower
>>>> the sails, create weather helm and portentially pull the rudder out of
>>>> the
>>>> water. If the rudder is partially out of the water due to heel, it is
>>>> less
>>>> effective and requires more angle which creates drag and can stall the
>>>> rudder. Some (not all) keel boats can sail faster with significant
>>>> heeling
>>>> because they are designed with significant hull overhangs which add
>>>> waterline length whwn heeling. This usually comes about due to
>>>> specific
>>>> racing class design formulas.
>>>>
>>>> All that being said the ways to reduce heal are to a) use deck apes, b)
>>>> reef
>>>> sails and c) trim sails to maximize lift and minimize drag
>>>>
>>>> 2) All CB boats will sail better on the wind with the board down.
>>>> Water
>>>> passing by the boards leading edge at the leeway angle creates lift
>>>> which
>>>> keeps the boat going intoo the wind. The lateral resistance of the
>>>> board
>>>> is
>>>> mimimal compared to the sails. There is no reason (healing, light air,
>>>> heavy air) to sail on the wind with the board up. The amount of board
>>>> down
>>>> can be experimented with to modify weather/lee helm as the CE (center
>>>> of
>>>> effort) of the board will change relative to the CE of the sails has
>>>> the
>>>> board is lowered. On a run, racing sailors will raise the board to
>>>> reduce
>>>> drag, but you will find that makes steering more difficult as the board
>>>> and
>>>> the rudder combine to create directional stability.
>>>>
>>>> For those interested I reccommend a small paper back book entitled
>>>> "Sail
>>>> Trim - Theory and Practice" by Peter Hahne, published by Sheridan
>>>> House.
>>>> He
>>>> describes in detail, trimming techniques to use to optimize sail trim
>>>> for
>>>> all conditions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David Walker
>>>>
>>>> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>>>>
>>>> Event Specialists
>>>>
>>>> 781-639-2707 Office
>>>> 781-718-8690 Cell
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Leland" <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:07 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John,
>>>>>
>>>>> That makes sense. If the boat normally heels less with the
>>>>> centerboard
>>>>> up,
>>>>> it stands to reason that it would also heel less in a big gust of
>>>>> wind.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lee
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> jlock wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually I think it is the opposite. With the board up, a gust will
>>>>>> tend to push the hull sideways more easily and expend some energy
>>>>>> doing so, producing less heel. But with the board down, it will
>>>>>> offer
>>>>>> resistance to the sideways push of the gust at a very low angle. The
>>>>>> results will be more heel above the waterline.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>>> John Lock
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>> s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22
>>>>>> Lake Sinclair, GA
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2009, at 13:41, MichaelT wrote:
>>>>>>> I'll have to balance the compromises here w/ needing to get
>>>>>>> somewhere vs a
>>>>>>> relaxing time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Btw, how real is the risk of a knockdown w/ the board up?
>>>>>>> Has there been any reported knockdowns with the board up?
>>>>>>> I suppose if a BIG gust came across and the board was up that the
>>>>>>> boat will
>>>>>>> react and heel much easier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arthur H. Czerwonky wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> These 'board up' options are a new one to me, partly because I
>>>>>>>> began
>>>>>>>> serious sailing in a racing mode. I do not know of anyone who
>>>>>>>> would beat
>>>>>>>> into the wind with the board up in competition, certainly due to
>>>>>>>> slippage,
>>>>>>>> which Hank emphasizes so well, but also the risk of knockdown. I
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> never tried it, Michael, but I'd approach this technique with
>>>>>>>> caution,
>>>>>>>> especially if your wife is aboard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Happy sailing,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Art
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Jul 27, 2009 9:56 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the first hand knowledge wrt the centerboard.
>>>>>>>>> You've certainly changed the fundamentals of my logic. Womehow my
>>>>>>>>> flawed
>>>>>>>>> thinking was that with the board up that the Rhodes would heel
>>>>>>>>> more and
>>>>>>>>> difficult to turn. On the contrary, the Rhodes actually sails
>>>>>>>>> better (i.e.
>>>>>>>>> less heel, easy to to turn) with the board up. Definitely
>>>>>>>>> something I will
>>>>>>>>> do this week.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks Lee!
>>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Leland wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> With the board down it will allow you to sail closer to the wind
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>>> better headway (less drifting).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, the faster you go the less impact the board will have on
>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>> sailing close to the wind and headway. The board is most useful
>>>>>>>>>> if you
>>>>>>>>>> want to make headway in light wind.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm a daysailor so the only time I need to make better headway is
>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>> necessary to get back to my marina at the end of the day. With
>>>>>>>>>> yesterday's high wind and the current and chop pushing me away
>>>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>>>> wind, I never once lowered my board and sailed part of the time
>>>>>>>>>> on broad
>>>>>>>>>> reaches and runs. On tacks the boat turned like a sports car.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> With the board down it will act as a pivot point and allow you to
>>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>> easier whether you are tacking or motoring around your slip. I
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>> if for either one.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've measured my speed countless times with the board up and down
>>>>>>>>>> and it
>>>>>>>>>> has always had a negative impact on speed. I think the term is
>>>>>>>>>> VMG
>>>>>>>>>> (velocity made good?) which measures how much headway you're
>>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>>> making. If I could figure out how to measure it on my GPS I'm
>>>>>>>>>> sure it
>>>>>>>>>> would show that the board helps, but with the reduction in speed
>>>>>>>>>> it sure
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't seem that way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lee
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> MichaelT wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lee,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was just thinking about bringing the centerboard up as you
>>>>>>>>>>> suggested,
>>>>>>>>>>> but have concerns.
>>>>>>>>>>> Did you flip bringing the centerboard up and down. Down when
>>>>>>>>>>> tacking
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> up after the tack?
>>>>>>>>>>> I remember when I forgot to let the centerboard down and all I
>>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>>> remember was going sideways and difficulty in making headway. In
>>>>>>>>>>> essence
>>>>>>>>>>> the boat was slipping and pushed sideways by the wind when the
>>>>>>>>>>> centerboard is up. I suppose as long as we don't need to be
>>>>>>>>>>> anywhere
>>>>>>>>>>> soon
>>>>>>>>>>> this is all fine.
>>>>>>>>>>> At the end I'll have to let my wife judge!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Great suggestion!
>>>>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Leland wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You're getting lots of good advice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You'll have a little less heel with the board up. From the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Rhodes
>>>>>>>>>>>> Owners' Site under FAQs under Rhodes vs. Com-Pac vs.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Precisions: 5.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Retract the centerboard part way in a big breeze. The board is
>>>>>>>>>>>> intentionally modest in weight, and does not contribute
>>>>>>>>>>>> significantly
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> stability up or down. Raising the board part way will reduce
>>>>>>>>>>>> both heel
>>>>>>>>>>>> and weather helm.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The quote refers to Precisions. If I raise the board all the
>>>>>>>>>>>> way on
>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> Rhodes it usually only reduces heel by about 3 degrees but your
>>>>>>>>>>>> wife
>>>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In an 8-10 knot wind, lowering the boom will reduce heel also.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As Dave mentioned the boat sails better with two sails. For
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> amount
>>>>>>>>>>>> of wind you described you probably weren't going fast enough to
>>>>>>>>>>>> tack.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Come off the wind enough to get up some speed and you'll then
>>>>>>>>>>>> be able
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> turn her sharply into the wind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> When I first got my Rhodes I typically had too much sail out.
>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>> wise to be conservative in your sail plan, but without any
>>>>>>>>>>>> headsail
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> so little main you probably couldn't get enough speed to tack
>>>>>>>>>>>> even if
>>>>>>>>>>>> you had come off the wind. Last week I was in a 12 knot wind.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On a
>>>>>>>>>>>> close reach with balanced sails with the board up and my 190
>>>>>>>>>>>> lbs of
>>>>>>>>>>>> rail
>>>>>>>>>>>> meat, I had less than 20 degrees of heel with the boom up and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the main
>>>>>>>>>>>> reefed to 80%. With the boom down I had the same heel with
>>>>>>>>>>>> 100% main.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have my mainsail furling line marked for reefs at 60% and
>>>>>>>>>>>> 80%. If I
>>>>>>>>>>>> have to reef the tiny little main beyond 60%, it's too windy
>>>>>>>>>>>> for me
>>>>>>>>>>>> (over 20 knots) and I go home.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lee
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1986 Rhodes22 At Ease
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kent Island, MD
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> david.walker5 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tacking with the jib, especially very light or heavy wind can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> challenging
>>>>>>>>>>>>> too. The problem is the jib is very powerfull and it wants to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> push
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> boat
>>>>>>>>>>>>> away from the tack. One technique that has worked for me is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> borrowed from sailing a square rigger. When you push the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tiller to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lee,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> loosen the jibe immediately, but do not let the sheet fly.(for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested its called scandalizing the jib) This reduces the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> drive
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sail and allows it to turn up wind. Just as the bow comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wind,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tighten the sheet a little. The wind will then backwind the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> jib and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> push the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bow the rest of the way onto the new tack. As you come through
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wind, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wind on the new tack will push the sail across to the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tack. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>> heavy wind you may end up "in stays" or headed into the wind
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> start
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pushed backwards. In that case as I said in an earlier post,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shift
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rudder (tiller to windward) and the boat will back onto the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> new tack
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> start to sail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Walker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Event Specialists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 781-639-2707 Office
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 781-718-8690 Cell
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Stephen Staum" <staum at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:32 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I too have a wife who likes to sail flat. I have an '87 w a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 184 per
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cent genoa. I usually start w 1/2 of the genny as the jib
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> powers this boat. Even w the full main out (alone) u will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> struggle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come about. Also, if u have the full jib out in light winds,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very difficult 2 get the jib 2 come across when coming about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often easier 2 jibe or roll up 1/2 the jib b4 come about is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> started.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enjoy!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Staum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2009, at 12:47 PM, MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Went out with the family on Sunday and wanted to play it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drew the IMF mainsail approx halfway on the boom (the letter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> R on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't showing).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wanted to keep things simple and used no jib. Centerboard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The boat stayed flat as a pancake which was the desired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife wants no heeling whatsoever. Problem I had was I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It even had a hard time getting into irons and just couldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cutover.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only way I could change direction was to spin 2/3's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jibe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to experiment and let out more sail so we just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enjoyed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next hour like this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this normal behaviour? What am I doing wrong?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tp24647946p24647946.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
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