[Rhodes22-list] Lee Helm

David Culp dculp at hsbtx.com
Sun Jul 5 15:43:13 EDT 2009


Rick:,

I sail alone 99.9% of the time and am beating to weather 85% of the
time.  Normal sail outbound is a run or beam reach and return is
almost always a beat trying to point as high as possible with the
fewest tacks possible to make the best time back.  With around 20 kts.
of wind, the sail configuration you refer to and my normal attempt to
point as high as possible, I am rail at or in the water overpowered.
In that situation, I would probably choose full lowered main, jib
sheeted inside the outers tightly around the first stay area and
centerboard down if heel wasn't too excessive using the traveler in
the gusts. Granted, my jib is blown out so it's a bag in big winds and
a good one might be made larger.  The boat is not moving as fast
probably, but every tack that I can avoid really saves time in my
venue.  Above 20 kts. the main should be reefed and the boat balanced
as you say.  I do reef the main at 20 and set the jib wherever heel is
acceptable.  I also have the diamond board and I don't notice its
contribution to the helm as much as its addition to heel angle. When
extended it probably moves the CLR slightly aft but not enough to
notice.  On a broad reach, I think you are on the right track by
extending as much genny as possible, staying balanced and on your
feet.   The only thing I would do different given the opportunity
would be to raise the CB to reduce drag.   I think the Rhodes sails
particuliarly well on a reach due to the smaller, fixed keel.  I which
I could reach more often and give it a try.

David

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 19:14:43 -0400
From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID:
       <52e9a140907031614w7852b01dr792df030d54a9179 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

David,

I find keeping the genny and main proportionality furled gives the best
balance, least heel and most speed.  The CE of the main doesn't seem to
change much until it is furled more than 30%.   The CE of the genny is
easily moved aft by moving the sheet car forward.

For instance, today I started out on a broad reach in 20 knots or so of wind
with the boom down and the main at about 80%.  Heel was about 15 deg and
speed 4.5 knots.  I furled the main back to 50% and unfurled the genny to
50% giving 5.2 knots of speed and heel less than 10 deg.  And of course,
neutral helm.

If you have a true centerboard, lowering it half way should shift the CLR
aft.  However, I have the newer diamond board and haven't found it to affect
helm pressure at any position.  So in decent air, I just keep it all the way
down at all points of sail except running before the wind.

Rick

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 3:53 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:

> Interesting discussion and I am not sure that I have experienced the
> same thing others are reporting.  Weather helm or lee helm has to do
> where the Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR) on the boat is in
> relation to the Center of Effort (CE) on the sails (especially the
> main).  The further aft you can get the CE the more weather helm you
> get.  I am not a nautical engineer obviously, but since our small IMF
> main has a small leech to avoid the backstays and to fit in the mast,
> it is easy to see that we by design are destined for a little lee
> helm.  Other boats with bigger mains and fuller leechs are less prone.
>  One example that I get to sail sometimes is a Flying Scot (200 sq.
> foot main vs. our IMF's 100)  It never has lee helm no matter the sail
> configuration used.
>
> You can mitigate lee helm to a certain extent by choosing the longest
> forestay length you can get and then tightening the aft lower stays to
> rake the mast back as far as you can get it to take most of the slack
> out of the forestay  Then tighten the forward lower stays.  Somebody
> on the list posted some pictures awhile back of their boat with the
> mast raked back.  It was noticeably raked back-further then I am able
> to get mine to go.  That should help a lot; but you don't want to over
> do it because when the wind picks up, you will have too much weather
> helm and it will slow the boat down and wear you out having to hold
> it.  Mine is just slightly aft of plumb and it seems just fine to me.
> Still in light air, I have just a bit of lee helm; but as the wind
> comes up, the main becomes more effective and it goes away.  This is
> by design and nothing to worry about.
>
> Some very good advice that Rummy gives and I have used is not to reef
> the main until there is no other alternative.  Since our main reefs
> forward and not down; as you reef, you are moving the CE closer to the
> CLR and lee-helm will increase meaning you can't carry as big a jib.
> Drop the boom and reef the jib first.  This helps with heeling angle
> too.  Also, if I remember from experimenting-putting the centerboard
> down on my boat moves the CLR aft contributing to more lee helm.  I
> need to check that again to make sure, but I think that is what
> happens.
>
> So in light wind, if I need to point I go ahead and put the CB down
> and play the lee-helm with the genoa all the way out.  My 175 is blown
> out, so my lee helm is worse then it has to be.  With the CB up and
> the mast raked back, I don't see any problems, just have to remember
> to hold a little un-natural pressure on the tiller.
>
> In strong wind,  heeling angle always seems to be the overriding
> concern to me and not lee helm.   I leave the CB up and keep the
> lowered main fully unfurled with just enough jib sheet in to stay in
> balance (slight weather helm).  I even sail the boat main only if
> conditions warrant.  You don't sail on a beat very fast and it is
> harder to tack, but I can take a lot of wind that way.  I found on
> main only that it is easier to tack if you let the traveler out all
> the way out to leeward.  I also practice it on less windy days, so I
> am ready when I need it.
>
> David
>
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 22:06:36 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Leland <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Message-ID: <24317647.post at talk.nabble.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> I can understand why a little weather helm is good, but when people say
> their boats have a little weather helm I don't quite understand it.  If my
> sails are balanced I have no helm at all.  If I have too much Genoa out I
> get lee helm.  If I have too little Genoa out I get weather helm.  Aren't
> all boats like that?
>
> Lee
> 1986 Rhodes22  At Ease
> Kent Island, MD
>
>
> Alan Robertson-2 wrote:
> >
> > We  have to reduce the size of the genoa during light airs to avoid lee
> > helm. If wind picks up , if we tauten foot of the jib and let it out
> > proportionately; it seems to work. No lee helm if on jib alone and
> > downwind.
> > Bigal
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: cjlowe at sssnet.com<mailto:cjlowe at sssnet.com>
> >   To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >   Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:36 PM
> >   Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
> >
> >
> >   Did you detach the forestay from the top of the mast,in the off season
> > and
> >   maybe not get it back in the same holes it came out of for this season?
> >   Did you change size of the head sail,or get the sails cleaned? Maybe
> the
> >   main sail isn't deploying all the way out? That's  all I can think of.
> >
> >   Jerry Lowe
> >
> >
> >
> >   The only other thing I can think of is weight distribution. We find
> >   > the boat sails better with some weight forward. We try to keep the
> >   > water tank (at the aft end of the v-berth on our boat) at least 2/3
> > full.
> >   >
> >   > I seem to remember Stan saying that the boat should have lee to
> >   > neutral helm in light air and should produce slight weather helm in
> >   > heavier air.
> >   >
> >   > Mary Lou
> >   > 1991 R22 Fretless
> >   > Rock Hall, MD
> >   >
> >   > At 07:44 PM 7/2/2009, you wrote:
> >   >>Somehow the center of force of the main is too far forward.  Is your
> > mast
> >   >>vertical to the centerline forward to aft?  That ought not to be an
> > issue
> >   >>with IMF with its wide cross section, unless your mast step is busted
> >   >> funny
> >   >>and tilting the mast forward.  Can't think of anything, else.  I
> > assume
> >   >> your
> >   >>main sheet is taunt and keeping the boom within the back stays.
> >   >>
> >   >>On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Tom Bickerstaff
> > <tabick at mchsi.com<mailto:tabick at mchsi.com>> wrote:
> >   >>
> >   >> > With only the main unfurled, the helm wants to send the bow off
> the
> >   >> wind.
> >   >> > The  topping lift is slack, the motor is all the way out of the
> > water
> >   >> and
> >   >> > the centerboard is all the way down.
> >   >> >
> >   >> > -----Original Message-----
> >   >> > From:
> > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org<mailto:
> rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org>
> >   >> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rick
> >   >> > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:58 PM
> >   >> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> >   >> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
> >   >> >
> >   >> > What does your helm feel like with only the main unfurled?  I
> > assume
> >   >> your
> >   >> > topping lift is slack when the main is out, your motor is pulled
> > all
> >   >> the
> >   >> > way
> >   >> > out of the water and your center/diamond board is all the way
> down.
> >   >> >
> >   >> > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Tom Bickerstaff
> > <tabick at mchsi.com<mailto:tabick at mchsi.com>>
> >   >> wrote:
> >   >> >
> >   >> > > I have IMF.  So, what's the solution?
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >   >> > > From:
> > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org<mailto:
> rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org>
> >   >> > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rick
> >   >> > > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:41 PM
> >   >> > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> >   >> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Lee helm
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > Bick,
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > A lee helm means your mainsail isn't pulling enough, assuming
> you
> >   >> have
> >   >> > IMF.
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > If not IMF, your forestay could be too short.
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > Rick
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Tom Bickerstaff
> > <tabick at mchsi.com<mailto:tabick at mchsi.com>>
> >   >> > wrote:
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > > Help!
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > > I seem to have a lee helm no matter how much jib I put out.
>  It
> >   >> scares
> >   >> > > the
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > > you-know-what out of me b/c I solo a lot.  If I take a banger
> > from
> >   >> the
> >   >> > > boom
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > > or accidentally fall overboard, where the H will the boat end
> > up?
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > > Is my forestay too loose or too tight, or is there something
> > else
> >   >> I
> >   >> > > should
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > > look for as being the cause?
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > > Thanks.
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > >
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > > Bick
> >   >> > >
> >   >> > > __________________________________________________
> >   >> > > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
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> >   >> to
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> >   >> > >
> >   >> > __________________________________________________
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