[Rhodes22-list] the war of the rhodeses
Arthur H. Czerwonky
czerwonky at earthlink.net
Fri Jul 17 09:26:15 EDT 2009
Todd,
Thanks for your thoughts on this. My goal is to look at my little segment of business in a professional way, not to get wrapped up in attacking anyone else's ego or opportunities. Life is just too short. But as you like a good argument (I bet you were a terror in Middle School, I had one in class last year), I could respond to Stan's points line by line so you can get your jollies - but only in private. Rummy, for one asked me why Stan and I couldn't resolve this off list. It has seemed a little like two deaf people having a conversation. How can you respond to gross and slanted exagerations, or simple lies?
I'm just not going to spice up our only domain for fleet communication by swinging at this windmill. What we have in our fleet relationship is a rather close fraternity, and I'd wish to keep it respectable and respectful. There are few ways to effectively deal with malicious slander. I could draw in key people who were involved with and saw my volunteer work to help Stan in his show dilema, but I do not want to threaten their relationship with "the master".
I will point out two examples of Stan's domineering mode. His assertion about how I could 'take the opportunity at the show to show my boom room' is entirely false, obviously so. I agreed to demo for him as a dedicated and loyal Stan supporter because, and only because he was in a pickle and asked for my help the day before. He told me he he did not have access to a demo boat afterall and needed my help. What is obvious? The boom room is solely a static display. Stan knew, as I did, that to fill in as a demo boat scotched any hope of displaying my BR and promoting my important business opportunity. If he, in fact, lied to me about his predicament, he selfishly robbed me of an important chance to further launch my enclosure. Simple no excuse for his behavior.
The second example is of our good friend and fellow Rhoadie, Luis Guzman, whom I had invited to the show to help me crew for the demo groups we were to take out on day two. Stan tried to throw him off the boat until I insisted that he would stay aboard. It didn't sit well with me, and wouldn't with you as the skipper either. I could go on.
Stan has never made a serious attempt to communicate effectively with me. In contrast, his wife Rose, who referred to me as a mensch (sp?) before I returned from Edenton on my factory 'BR approval trip' in Spring '06, is a total sweetheart, although tries her best to stay in the background at GB, and I can understand why.
Call me at any time, I posted my number. I will call you back on my nickle and talk as long as you want. Our fleet members are a gold mine of friendships to me, I promise you, not a gold mine in canvas work in my estimate - I just enjoy this exacting hobby in my retirement. Let's stay in touch, my friend.
Art
-----Original Message-----
>From: Todd Tavares <sprocket80 at mail.com>
>Sent: Jul 16, 2009 7:30 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] the war of the rhodeses
>
> Art,
>
> While it may be like fingernails on a chalkboard to some (as will
>this e-mail), but why don't you defend yourself here in open forum?
>Your response just changed the subject. Besides, people here on the list
>who know me know I like a good argument.
>
> Stan does sell unique parts to to his unique boat. When I asked for
>pintles and gudgeons because I wanted build
>a rudder head just like the GB one, he would not sell them to me because
>my boat was bought aftermarket; not from him. He
>reserved to sell these specialized parts to "paying" customers, because
>his supplier was no longer in business and he had a finite
>number in stock. This pissed me off at first, but I understand and would
>do the same if I were him. Stan did however sell me a traveler
>car and for that I am grateful. I also sent Stan some money for a used
>standard mainsail and he sent me four.
>
> Twice I spoke about used boats which I was negotiating to purchase, here
>on the list, and both times Stan contacted the sellers and bought
>them out from under me. (which is why I did not talk about the e-bay boat
>in Bessemer City, NC). I never demanded a voluntary
>finder's fee from GB. So, I agree that paying any "volunteered" royalty
>or fee to GB for parts or boats sold here on the list is ridiculous....
>except in the case where Stan steers buyers to the list. Since the fees
>are voluntary, I don't think Stan should throw it in anyone's face
>either if they did not pay--nor do I believe these fees make or break
>GB,even in the present economy.
>
> Like you Art, I'd guess, there is nothing on any year Rhodes 22 which
>I could not fabricate myself (time permitting). I am all for giving Stan
>his due, and would
>rather buy a part from GB than have to make it myself. I would support
>the argument of selling any fabricated "copied" parts here on the
>list or otherwise; sans royalty fee, if Stan no longer sells or would
>fabricate and obsolete part. I'd imagine if that were the case, he'd
>probably
>tell you to knock yourself out because you would not be stealing his
>business. I started a heated debate over intellectual property rights
>when
>I created and posted dimensioned drawings of the triad trailer. My
>drawings are to benefit the do-it-yourselfers on the list and not to sell
>knock-offs.
>Nor am I worried about pissing Stan off by not paying a commission,
>royalty, "tithe" or 'loyalty' fee lest he refuse to sell me another part.
>I would however
>worry about him suing me.
>
> Stan does have a business to run, and has painted a less than rosy
>picture. I can't be the only inquiring mind wanting to know.
>
> Todd T
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky"
> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List"
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] the war of the rhodeses
> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:18:45 -0400 (EDT)
>
>
> Guys,
>
> Like I said once before, if anyone cares to hear more detail on the
> 'private and personal issues' that Stan has inappropriately focused
> on in this public forum, please contact me off-line or on the
> phone. Some have done already. He has gotten something off his
> chest. Simply put, there is a "World according to Stan" that is so
> sadly distorted in this case. I'd avoid it for yourself.
>
> It is such a waste of your time to fixate on such a trivial matters
> like these. Let's get to the key issues. I suspect Mary Lou made
> an excellent point of support for a payment of a surcharge,
> royalty, or commission for products of non-GB origin that we need
> and purchase for our fleet boats. If this is to be a sincere
> gesture to Stan by fleet members, it should not be limited to
> products supplied by me or anyone who happens to be a member of our
> fleet. When we buy line, SS fixtures, sails, anchors, or any
> equipment for our boats, this would seem to be similar
> justification for an override, a 'loyalty' fee or tithe, if you
> will.
>
> Consider this :Two years ago I found it necessary to approach Dwyer
> about replacing my spreader fixtures, distorted after many years of
> mast stepping. We used the rear lower shroud for attachment to the
> crane for lifting the IMF - the GB recommended method as late as
> the '06 Annapolis show. I approached Stan three times over as many
> months, from before that show until before the St Pete show the
> same year, in order to purchase two fixtures at about $40 per, and
> never received any response at all - none, nada, zippo. That seems
> non-responsive. Now, having to go to Dwyer, is a skipper whose
> request has been ignored somehow expected to forward a commission
> fee to Stan? Make your own judgement on what makes sense.
>
> If GB needs to be further underwritten and supported, maybe Stan
> should consider making interested investors shareholder/partners in
> GB. As 'stakeholders' in the R22 fleet, maybe this is not so far
> fetched for some of us, although not me. Think about it. There
> ought to be some way we can infuse GB without Stan effectively
> having to seek donations versus legit services. If GB is in a
> financial bind, more is needed than a loyalty fee gesture. This
> is, no doubt, a sensitive issue for him since it could affect GB
> ownership.
>
> I am not aware of any manufacturer (picture any of the sailboat
> manufacturers, even Catalina or MacGregor) who expects their
> customers to pay homage to them for after-market sales, maintenance
> or upgrades on their products which are not contracted by the
> manufacturer. Is anyone aware of such an industry obligation?
>
> A comment on my work - I am making a tiller cover for Dave, no
> charge, BTW. I have to charge when I make other items, ie the
> Cockpit Enclosure. I have no objection whatever if any client
> wants to project a 10% add-on for Stan. I simply cannot establish
> this 'side account' within my little enterprise, for tax and
> precedent issues. My pledge to you is that you will be using the
> absolute best product at the best cost, no exception. If I cannot
> provide the best value for you I will tell you honestly and decline
> the opportunity until I can, and I have done this. I'll respond
> promptly, by cell usually (I can get to know you and your
> priorities better), and produce with a commit to delivery and cost,
> even if I underestimate. I will treat any work as a priority
> custom crafted and fitted job, no assembly line mentality. I will
> provide more than enough cost advantage to enable to you to send
> Stan his due, but will not define the cost in such a way that
> requires you to. It w!
> ill be your free choice, friends. One additional point - I will
> enjoy making your product, whatever it is, and you will enjoy using
> it - that's just the rule. I will do well with canvas, and don't
> think I will begin producing sailboats...
>
> I will make a strong suggestion: Even though PR happenings, like
> the #1 poll results, an impressive 'Good Old Boat' writeup in ~
> '05, and the 'Sailing' p52 piece are good and free advertising,
> some form of paid advertising seems long overdue if the GB goal is
> increased boat orders and boat production. Many of us found the
> R22 by sheer chance. Why put 'the bar' so low on purpose (BTW,
> with no reference to Rummy)?
>
> Once again, time for an aspirin...
>
> Stan for Vice President, Rose for Ms. America!
>
> Art
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>
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-----Original Message-----
>From: Todd Tavares <sprocket80 at mail.com>
>Sent: Jul 16, 2009 7:30 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] the war of the rhodeses
>
> Art,
>
> While it may be like fingernails on a chalkboard to some (as will
>this e-mail), but why don't you defend yourself here in open forum?
>Your response just changed the subject. Besides, people here on the list
>who know me know I like a good argument.
>
> Stan does sell unique parts to to his unique boat. When I asked for
>pintles and gudgeons because I wanted build
>a rudder head just like the GB one, he would not sell them to me because
>my boat was bought aftermarket; not from him. He
>reserved to sell these specialized parts to "paying" customers, because
>his supplier was no longer in business and he had a finite
>number in stock. This pissed me off at first, but I understand and would
>do the same if I were him. Stan did however sell me a traveler
>car and for that I am grateful. I also sent Stan some money for a used
>standard mainsail and he sent me four.
>
> Twice I spoke about used boats which I was negotiating to purchase, here
>on the list, and both times Stan contacted the sellers and bought
>them out from under me. (which is why I did not talk about the e-bay boat
>in Bessemer City, NC). I never demanded a voluntary
>finder's fee from GB. So, I agree that paying any "volunteered" royalty
>or fee to GB for parts or boats sold here on the list is ridiculous....
>except in the case where Stan steers buyers to the list. Since the fees
>are voluntary, I don't think Stan should throw it in anyone's face
>either if they did not pay--nor do I believe these fees make or break
>GB,even in the present economy.
>
> Like you Art, I'd guess, there is nothing on any year Rhodes 22 which
>I could not fabricate myself (time permitting). I am all for giving Stan
>his due, and would
>rather buy a part from GB than have to make it myself. I would support
>the argument of selling any fabricated "copied" parts here on the
>list or otherwise; sans royalty fee, if Stan no longer sells or would
>fabricate and obsolete part. I'd imagine if that were the case, he'd
>probably
>tell you to knock yourself out because you would not be stealing his
>business. I started a heated debate over intellectual property rights
>when
>I created and posted dimensioned drawings of the triad trailer. My
>drawings are to benefit the do-it-yourselfers on the list and not to sell
>knock-offs.
>Nor am I worried about pissing Stan off by not paying a commission,
>royalty, "tithe" or 'loyalty' fee lest he refuse to sell me another part.
>I would however
>worry about him suing me.
>
> Stan does have a business to run, and has painted a less than rosy
>picture. I can't be the only inquiring mind wanting to know.
>
> Todd T
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky"
> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List"
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] the war of the rhodeses
> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:18:45 -0400 (EDT)
>
>
> Guys,
>
> Like I said once before, if anyone cares to hear more detail on the
> 'private and personal issues' that Stan has inappropriately focused
> on in this public forum, please contact me off-line or on the
> phone. Some have done already. He has gotten something off his
> chest. Simply put, there is a "World according to Stan" that is so
> sadly distorted in this case. I'd avoid it for yourself.
>
> It is such a waste of your time to fixate on such a trivial matters
> like these. Let's get to the key issues. I suspect Mary Lou made
> an excellent point of support for a payment of a surcharge,
> royalty, or commission for products of non-GB origin that we need
> and purchase for our fleet boats. If this is to be a sincere
> gesture to Stan by fleet members, it should not be limited to
> products supplied by me or anyone who happens to be a member of our
> fleet. When we buy line, SS fixtures, sails, anchors, or any
> equipment for our boats, this would seem to be similar
> justification for an override, a 'loyalty' fee or tithe, if you
> will.
>
> Consider this :Two years ago I found it necessary to approach Dwyer
> about replacing my spreader fixtures, distorted after many years of
> mast stepping. We used the rear lower shroud for attachment to the
> crane for lifting the IMF - the GB recommended method as late as
> the '06 Annapolis show. I approached Stan three times over as many
> months, from before that show until before the St Pete show the
> same year, in order to purchase two fixtures at about $40 per, and
> never received any response at all - none, nada, zippo. That seems
> non-responsive. Now, having to go to Dwyer, is a skipper whose
> request has been ignored somehow expected to forward a commission
> fee to Stan? Make your own judgement on what makes sense.
>
> If GB needs to be further underwritten and supported, maybe Stan
> should consider making interested investors shareholder/partners in
> GB. As 'stakeholders' in the R22 fleet, maybe this is not so far
> fetched for some of us, although not me. Think about it. There
> ought to be some way we can infuse GB without Stan effectively
> having to seek donations versus legit services. If GB is in a
> financial bind, more is needed than a loyalty fee gesture. This
> is, no doubt, a sensitive issue for him since it could affect GB
> ownership.
>
> I am not aware of any manufacturer (picture any of the sailboat
> manufacturers, even Catalina or MacGregor) who expects their
> customers to pay homage to them for after-market sales, maintenance
> or upgrades on their products which are not contracted by the
> manufacturer. Is anyone aware of such an industry obligation?
>
> A comment on my work - I am making a tiller cover for Dave, no
> charge, BTW. I have to charge when I make other items, ie the
> Cockpit Enclosure. I have no objection whatever if any client
> wants to project a 10% add-on for Stan. I simply cannot establish
> this 'side account' within my little enterprise, for tax and
> precedent issues. My pledge to you is that you will be using the
> absolute best product at the best cost, no exception. If I cannot
> provide the best value for you I will tell you honestly and decline
> the opportunity until I can, and I have done this. I'll respond
> promptly, by cell usually (I can get to know you and your
> priorities better), and produce with a commit to delivery and cost,
> even if I underestimate. I will treat any work as a priority
> custom crafted and fitted job, no assembly line mentality. I will
> provide more than enough cost advantage to enable to you to send
> Stan his due, but will not define the cost in such a way that
> requires you to. It w!
> ill be your free choice, friends. One additional point - I will
> enjoy making your product, whatever it is, and you will enjoy using
> it - that's just the rule. I will do well with canvas, and don't
> think I will begin producing sailboats...
>
> I will make a strong suggestion: Even though PR happenings, like
> the #1 poll results, an impressive 'Good Old Boat' writeup in ~
> '05, and the 'Sailing' p52 piece are good and free advertising,
> some form of paid advertising seems long overdue if the GB goal is
> increased boat orders and boat production. Many of us found the
> R22 by sheer chance. Why put 'the bar' so low on purpose (BTW,
> with no reference to Rummy)?
>
> Once again, time for an aspirin...
>
> Stan for Vice President, Rose for Ms. America!
>
> Art
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>
>--
>Be Yourself @ mail.com!
>Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
>Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
>
>__________________________________________________
>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>__________________________________________________
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