[Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)

[Lowe, Rob]

Drop the IMF, ditch the head, the water tank, the fancy motor lift, and
re-model the interior?  Now you have my 1976 boat! I do have battery
though. - rob


-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of John Shulick
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:52 AM
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)


Rick,

I see your point clearly on the subject but I also see Davids idea of
options to increase sales. How about dropping the IMF, ditch the head,
the
on board water tank, the batteries, the fancy motor lift, re-model the
interior and selling it as a "sport model" My wife and I live on the
boat
almost every weekend and find a porta potty and crank lights sufficient.
Being a camper before a sailor I have found the R22 to be a first class
floating campground without the pain of hiking in. I also have had the
perverse pleasure one weekend of sailing rings around a macgregor 26
using
it like a no wake buoy as the kids pleaded at their father to make the
mac
go faster. Racer/Cruiser is more fun than Cruiser/Racer. Even if you're
not
racing its fun to be faster.

Respectfully submitted,
John Shulick


Rick-139 wrote:
> 
> David,
> 
> I hate to be the wet blanket again.  But racing sailboats is a whole
> 'nother
> market.  The key to convincing a customer to buy a sailboat for racing
is
> to
> convince him or her that they will have lots of other sailboats to
race
> against.
> 
> In the one design game, it involves high volume production and a
> distribution system that can execute geographically concentrated sales
and
> support. J Boats has been successful doing that in the Great Lakes
with
> the
> J 22 and other longer models. Plus, J Boats has a respectable history
of
> maintaining one design integrity.
> 
> Of course, there's always PHRF racing.  But how many 20 - 25 foot
cruising
> sailboat owners are left with an interest in racing?
> 
> Unlike 30 years ago, most people today who buy cruising or day sailing
> boats
> in the low 20's length are first timers.  From there, they either drop
out
> or they move to larger boats more popular for cruising, racing or
both.
> Catalina and Hunter have turned the market into that by making cheap
> starter
> boats people can easily abandon for yachts.  Stan's main problem is he
now
> has a product that goes against the prevailing mindset that has
evolved
> for
> his market.
> 
> Did you read the article "The Little Boat that Could" in August issue
of
> Sailing?  The title itself is a reflection of that mindset.  And
despite
> all
> kinds of compliments about the R22, the piece ends with:  "More
important,
> where does one get a new tiller for a Rhodes 22?"  That's some insult
to a
> builder who has admirably supported his product for decades.  But
again,
> that's part of the same mindset.
> 
> Rick
> 
> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:04 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
> 
>> Rick:
>> What I am saying is that this boat is unique and I can't go down to
the
>> local boatyard and get some of the major parts that I might need.
Also,
>> I
>> can't send an email or make a phone call to the guy who built the
boat at
>> most places and expect a response.  That's probably worth something
to
>> keep
>> the operation rolling as long as Stan does his part.  I don't think
you
>> ought to pay royalty/loyalty if you don't get anything for it.  If
the
>> group
>> feels we are getting something worth paying for, then I'm just
suggesting
>> a
>> small stipend annually to Stan which if everyone participates might
be a
>> better solution then a percentage up front facing new owners for
>> loyalty/royalty.  The 5% on the seller side will figure into the
price
>> and
>> it gets the new owner out of any obligation to pay a royalty/loyalty
up
>> front for two years.  Then, continued association membership will
require
>> the annual dues.
>>
>> Imagine if you bought a Ford or Chevy used and then were asked to
send a
>> 5%
>> fee to the factory.  Nobody would... but this is not a Ford or Chevy.
I
>> figure some type of ongoing support is probably reasonable as long as
we
>> get
>> good owner support and parts availability.  For example, if someone
comes
>> along and hits my rudder in the slip and I need a new one, there
ought to
>> be
>> a spare waiting at the factory to ship out.   If someone blows a sail
>> out,
>> there should be one ready to ship and the right color too.  I don't
know
>> if
>> this is the case at GBI because spare parts mean overhead and I don't
>> know
>> how much overhead Stan is willing to carry.  Maybe parts for
non-members
>> ought to carry a premium that members don't have to pay-so another
added
>> incentive to be one of the family.
>>
>> I hear what you are saying about the market.  Long term, owners are
not
>> going to be the ones to keep GBI afloat.  You have got to get new
>> customers
>> through the door.  There have been a lot of good suggestions given by
a
>> lot
>> of experienced people on the list.  My experiences with family run
>> businesses are that we are very happy to take your money but you can
keep
>> your advice to yourself.  However, Stan seems open to some
suggestions.
>>
>> Stan has an excellent product, more people need to know about it as
>> someone
>> has mentioned.  A new boat is becoming cost prohibitive for most,
the
>> recycling is a good second market but I think you need a "less
frills"
>> model
>> to get younger couples through the doors.  You would have to be able
to
>> build it with the same quality, using the same molds at an attractive
>> price
>> point and I don't know if that is possible.  I thought maybe a
stripped
>> down
>> racing version might be a solution.  Racers don't need much down
below
>> and
>> will pay for quality above.  The Rhodes is faster then a Catalina to
>> being
>> with and that would appeal to a lot of people.
>>
>> Just my thoughts,
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:28:36 -0400
>> From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Message-ID:
>>       <52e9a140907261428v6feebf53l4e923711b987ec30 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> David,
>>
>> When I was considering buying my R22, the PO said, "I can give you
the
>> home
>> phone number of the guy who makes the boat and he will talk to you at
any
>> time."  Of course, that tilted me to buy his boat and subsequently
buy
>> many
>> things from Stan.
>>
>> Are you suggesting Stan discontinues this attractive offering in the
>> shrunken marketplace for pocket cruiser sailboats?  I think it will
just
>> turn customers toward high volume boats where technical information
and
>> spare parts are readily available.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 4:49 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Stan:
>> >
>> > Thank you for your insight into the business.  I dare say that most
>> > sailboat
>> > owners don't get the inside track on happenings at the factory; if
the
>> > factory is even still in business that is.
>> >
>> > I want to comment on the loyalty/royalty program concerning the
Rhodes.
>>  My
>> > experience in boat ownership over the years is that a used boat
>> purchaser
>> > always spends the maximum funds set aside for the purchase.  Either
the
>> > purchase price and the taxes consume the entire amount or the new
owner
>> > takes any funds left and applies them to things the boat needs.
And we
>> all
>> > know that used boats need something all the time.
>> >
>> > It is a bit of a sticky wicket let's say, to request from a new
owner 5
>> %
>> > of
>> > the purchase price be paid to GBI when they have probably spent
more
>> money
>> > then they intended to begin with.  The Rhodes 22 is the top of the
>> scale
>> in
>> > 22' boats and used prices are not cheap.  We see it all the time on
the
>> > list...  Folks are interested in the Rhodes but they are trying to
>> purchase
>> > it on a "Catalina" budget; so they "lurk" on the list either saving
up
>> > their
>> > cash or hoping to see a cheap boat come up for sale whereby they
>> promptly
>> > go
>> > off-list and complete the transaction.
>> >
>> > You will remember in my case, that I sent GBI a check for $ 200.00
to
>> cover
>> > the promotional materials you sent me-but that was not 5% of the
price
>> I
>> > paid.  In the meantime, I have enjoyed the technical support that I
>> have
>> > received as a member of the list from the owners and from yourself.

>> That
>> > is
>> > worth something, even though I didn't realize it in the beginning.

>> This
>> > boat and this list are pretty unique to the boating world.
>> >
>> > I propose and this will make some people on this list unhappy, in
fact,
>> > very
>> > unhappy.... An Owner's association with an annual fee.  For that
annual
>> > fee,
>> > you have got to provide something however.  Which is another
problem
>> with
>> a
>> > royalty fee upfront; people always need to feel that they are
getting
>> > something for their money.   In this case, for the annual
association
>> fee:
>> >
>> > Admission to the list
>> > Technical support either from members or the factory
>> > Availability and a price list of parts, sails, etc. that is kept up
to
>> date
>> > so I can purchase it from you if I need something.
>> >
>> >
>> > Except for the parts and prices, this is pretty much what we are
doing
>> > already.  Maybe you could come up with some member specials on
pricing
>> from
>> > time to time for sails or parts or write an occasional article that
>> only
>> > members would get.  I don't want to burden you with a bunch of
extra
>> work,
>> > but there needs to be something unique about membership.  In this
way,
>> the
>> > new owner would feel they are getting something and it would
generate
>> > revenue for you over the longer term.  As part of the membership,
if we
>> > agree to give you 5% of the selling price when we sell, then I
don't
>> have
>> a
>> > problem with it; especially if the list helps my estate sell the
boat.
>> >  I'll
>> > even stipulate it in my will.  I figure if I owe a "loyalty fee",
it is
>> > probably to the list members who have taken their time and been so
>> helpful
>> > over the years.  If paying you a "royalty" fee helps keep GBI in
>> business
>> > then that helps them and you.  As a seller, if I pay 5% then it
gets my
>> > buyer on the list free for two years.  Then he/she can do the
>> responsible
>> > thing and start paying their own royalty/loyalty dues.
>> >
>> > The other situation which started the discussion in the beginning
has
>> to
>> do
>> > with after-market products or other parts unique to the Rhodes.  If
a
>> > member
>> > has an after-market item to sell to the list which is unique to the
>> Rhodes
>> > and/or would normally be available from GBI for sale, then he/she
goes
>> > through you.  They can advertise it and discuss it; but I buy it
from
>> you
>> > after you have added your mark up or it cannot be advertised on the
>> > member's
>> > list by another member or by a third party.  Simple as that.  They
are
>> a
>> > supplier of General Boats and you are the distributor to me. 
>> Obviously,
>> > the
>> > list membership information is kept proprietary to prevent direct
>> marketing
>> > by a third party.  If a member tries to go behind your back... we
can
>> take
>> > care of that.  If something comes up for sale on the open-market
that
>> is
>> > unique to the Rhodes 22 and there are legal issues, then that is a
>> > discussion for lawyers and not for this forum.
>> >
>> > Right now MJM is administering the list.  I think he or whomever
takes
>> on
>> > those duties gets their membership free.
>> >
>> > I hope you will take these suggestions under advisement and if it
is of
>> > interest, let us know what you think the annual membership fee
should
>> be.
>> >
>> > For everyone else, let the flaming begin....  But just keep in mind
>> what
>> > the
>> > purpose is here.  Trying to come up with something palatable to
help
>> GBI
>> > now
>> > and us in the long run.
>> >
>> > David
>> >
>> > PS:
>> >
>> > Other thoughts:  The Rhodes 22 website is "technically" one of the
best
>> I
>> > have ever seen as far as the boat information goes.  However, it
needs
>> some
>> > polish to be a more effective marketing tool.  More timely
information
>> and
>> > more emphasis on the recycle program and availability of used boats
>> comes
>> > to
>> > mind since new boat sales are down.  Also, have you ever considered
a
>> new
>> > "entry level"  boat without all the bells and whistles which
someone
>> could
>> > purchase at a bit lower price?  You've talked about a racer before.
>>  Could
>> > you come up with something without having to have new
molds-marketed as
>> a
>> > "Sport" Rhodes 22?   Lower the interior weight, put a standard mast
and
>> > racing sails on it and a spinaker.  Catalina has a "sport model"
and it
>> > does
>> > pretty well I think.  Just some ideas I have batted around. dc
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:46:52 -0400
>> > From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
>> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > Message-ID: <038FA83D95464CCFB609CA722206B2D8 at rhodes>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >
>> > Rose and I want to thank you all for indulging GB in the use of
your
>> forum
>> > on an issue that is so basic to GB.
>> >
>> > We want to thank those that take issue with our position but
attempt to
>> be
>> > evenhanded.  (If academically interested, we can provide exhibits
and
>> > witnesses that prove the accuracy of our facts.)
>> >
>> > We are empathetic with those who chafe at this sort of thing and
remain
>> > silent - in our younger days we probably would have done the same.
It
>> was
>> > not until 50 that we adopted our tribe's slogan of  "never again"
and
>> took
>> > on anyone who wronged us:  A policeman.  A lawyer.  a station wagon
>> full
>> of
>> > nuns (just kidding about the station wagon), a giant corporation to
>> > docketing at the US Supreme Court.   We prevailed in all these pro
se
>> > actions simply because we do not complain unless the facts and
logic
>> are
>> > solidly on our side - but we digress.
>> >
>> > And, in particular, we want to thank those who understand the
logical
>> side
>> > of our position and offered suggestions.
>> >
>> >
>> > Re the issue of the Loyalty/Royalty program:   Its reasoning seems
so
>> > correct that it is hard to comprehend dissent.  Those thinking us
crazy
>> for
>> > such radical thinking have to sit in this chair for just one day.
>> > Interestingly, dissenters enjoy products from many segments of
industry
>> who
>> > have already worked out such support programs, yet these dissenters
>> seem
>> to
>> > be drawing their own grandfather clause line as to which industries
>> should
>> > not be entitled to residuals on their efforts.   Those in this
group
>> have
>> > but to request and we will expand on the good sense of this
program.  
>> It
>> > has been emotionally gratifying seeing former members of the "You
must
>> be
>> > crazy" society, when, becoming members of the "List" family, seeing
the
>> > light and converting.
>> >
>> > Re the issue of the 50 years creating a unique product now having
>> others
>> > take bites of its parts for their unilateral gain, if not resolved,
>> will
>> > come home to bite us all.   ( When I walked out of the hallowed
halls
>> of
>> > ole
>> > PU I vowed not to go into business because I could not stand the
ethics
>> I
>> > saw, and assumed, had to go with that territory.  But it was
>> pre-ordained;
>> > I
>> > ended up spending most of my life a driving capitalist.   And it
has
>> been
>> a
>> > blast, for me and my partner of 60 years - because we made the
making
>> of
>> > money our secondary goal.   (The effects of that kind of religious
>> fervor
>> > has surprisingly turned out to be rough on our opponents.)   There
are
>> ways
>> > we can go to stop the taking of free bites of the profitable parts
side
>> of
>> > GB's business::
>> >
>> > When we sold Venture Sailboats (Macgregor), dealers could buy sails
>> > elsewhere and make an additional profit on Roger's creation at
Roger's
>> > expense.  Roger, who graduated at the top of his class at Stamford,
>> simply
>> > raised the price of his boat and included sails.  Being the tough
>> business
>> > man he is, he did it without notice and dealers had to eat their
sail
>> > inventories they bought elsewhere.  We are slow learners but could
>> price
>> > Rhodes sales to include a part an outside seller has latched onto.

>> Or,
>> >
>> > We could simply be unresponsive to boat owners who purchase parts,
>> unique
>> > to
>> > the Rhodes design, from others in competition with GB or who fail
to
>> honor
>> > agreements with GB.   We inherently do not like this retaliatory
type
>> of
>> > solution, but it is a solution.   Or
>> >
>> > We could simply close shop and that would close the market for
>> unauthorized
>> > parts vendors.   This "cutting off ones nose" solution is not our
>> choice.
>> >  However, not taking on rogue suppliers, eating away at the life
cash
>> flow
>> > of the company, makes it an inevitable solution.
>> >
>> >
>> > In an effort to avoid any of the above solutions, based on the
thinking
>> of
>> > List members in this particular complaint of GB vs. Art C, we have
some
>> > proposals that we will present to the List next week for your
>> appreciated
>> > feedback.  The pro bono time we are having to devote to the
problems
>> and
>> > questions of private sale Rhodes is becoming so overwhelming (and
we
>> hate
>> > to
>> > be mean spirited enough to tell them where to go) that we just
can't
>> seem
>> > to
>> > manage all of this issue in one sitting.
>> >
>> > ss
>> > __________________________________________________
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to
>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > __________________________________________________
>> >
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