[Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim

Tue Jul 28 12:00:49 EDT 2009

Lou,

They can't be bought, only Shanghaied.

Rick

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Lou Rosenberg <lsr3 at nyu.edu> wrote:

> Dave
>
> Where can I buy Deck Apes?
> they're not in the WM catalog?
>
> Lou
>
> On Jul 28, 2009, at 11:52 AM, David Walker wrote:
>
> > I've tried to stay quiet while watching these posts fly by but I
> > have to
> > make a few comments.
> >
> > 1)  The R22 sails basically like a big dinghy. It really wants to sail
> > relatively flat.  This gives maximum depth to the CB, least wetted
> > surface
> > and best hull form factor in the water.   All heel does is
> > effectively lower
> > the sails, create weather helm and portentially pull the rudder out
> > of the
> > water. If the rudder is partially out of the water due to heel, it
> > is less
> > effective and requires more angle which creates drag and can stall the
> > rudder.  Some (not all) keel boats can sail faster with significant
> > heeling
> > because they are designed with significant hull overhangs which add
> > waterline length whwn heeling.  This usually comes about due to
> > specific
> > racing class design formulas.
> >
> > All that being said the ways to reduce heal are to a) use deck
> > apes, b) reef
> > sails and c) trim sails to maximize lift and minimize drag
> >
> > 2)  All CB boats will sail better on the wind with the board down.
> > Water
> > passing by the boards leading edge at the leeway angle creates lift
> > which
> > keeps the boat going intoo the wind.  The lateral resistance of the
> > board is
> > mimimal compared to the sails.  There is no reason (healing, light
> > air,
> > heavy air) to sail on the wind with the board up.  The amount of
> > board down
> > can be experimented with to modify weather/lee helm as the CE
> > (center of
> > effort) of the board will change relative to the CE of the sails
> > has the
> > board is lowered.  On a run, racing sailors will raise the board to
> > reduce
> > drag, but you will find that makes steering more difficult as the
> > board and
> > the rudder combine to create directional stability.
> >
> > For those interested I reccommend a small paper back book entitled
> > "Sail
> > Trim - Theory and Practice" by Peter Hahne, published by Sheridan
> > House.  He
> > describes in detail, trimming techniques to use to optimize sail
> > trim for
> > all conditions.
> >
> >
> > David Walker
> >
> > www.davidwalkerphotography.com
> >
> > Event Specialists
> >
> > 781-639-2707 Office
> > 781-718-8690 Cell
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Leland" <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
> > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:07 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
> >
> >
> >>
> >> John,
> >>
> >> That makes sense.  If the boat normally heels less with the
> >> centerboard
> >> up,
> >> it stands to reason that it would also heel less in a big gust of
> >> wind.
> >>
> >> Lee
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> jlock wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Actually I think it is the opposite.  With the board up, a gust will
> >>> tend to push the hull sideways more easily and expend some energy
> >>> doing so, producing less heel.  But with the board down, it will
> >>> offer
> >>> resistance to the sideways push of the gust at a very low angle.
> >>> The
> >>> results will be more heel above the waterline.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers!
> >>> John Lock
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22
> >>> Lake Sinclair, GA
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>
> >>> On Jul 27, 2009, at 13:41, MichaelT wrote:
> >>>> I'll have to balance the compromises here w/ needing to get
> >>>> somewhere vs a
> >>>> relaxing time.
> >>>>
> >>>> Btw, how real is the risk of a knockdown w/ the board up?
> >>>> Has there been any reported knockdowns with the board up?
> >>>> I suppose if a BIG gust came across and the board was up that the
> >>>> boat will
> >>>> react and heel much easier.
> >>>>
> >>>> Michael
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Arthur H. Czerwonky wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Michael,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> These 'board up' options are a new one to me, partly because I
> >>>>> began
> >>>>> serious sailing in a racing mode.  I do not know of anyone who
> >>>>> would beat
> >>>>> into the wind with the board up in competition, certainly due to
> >>>>> slippage,
> >>>>> which Hank emphasizes so well, but also the risk of knockdown.  I
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> never tried it, Michael, but I'd approach this technique with
> >>>>> caution,
> >>>>> especially if your wife is aboard.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Happy sailing,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Art
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: Jul 27, 2009 9:56 AM
> >>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks for the first hand knowledge wrt the centerboard.
> >>>>>> You've certainly changed the fundamentals of my logic. Womehow my
> >>>>>> flawed
> >>>>>> thinking was that with the board up that the Rhodes would heel
> >>>>>> more and
> >>>>>> difficult to turn. On the contrary, the Rhodes actually sails
> >>>>>> better (i.e.
> >>>>>> less heel, easy to to turn) with the board up. Definitely
> >>>>>> something I will
> >>>>>> do this week.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks Lee!
> >>>>>> Michael
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Leland wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Michael,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> With the board down it will allow you to sail closer to the wind
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> make
> >>>>>>> better headway (less drifting).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> However, the faster you go the less impact the board will
> >>>>>>> have on
> >>>>>>> both
> >>>>>>> sailing close to the wind and headway.  The board is most useful
> >>>>>>> if you
> >>>>>>> want to make headway in light wind.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm a daysailor so the only time I need to make better
> >>>>>>> headway is
> >>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>> necessary to get back to my marina at the end of the day.  With
> >>>>>>> yesterday's high wind and the current and chop pushing me away
> >>>>>>> from the
> >>>>>>> wind, I never once lowered my board and sailed part of the time
> >>>>>>> on broad
> >>>>>>> reaches and runs.  On tacks the boat turned like a sports car.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> With the board down it will act as a pivot point and allow
> >>>>>>> you to
> >>>>>>> turn
> >>>>>>> easier whether you are tacking or motoring around your slip.  I
> >>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>> if for either one.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I've measured my speed countless times with the board up and
> >>>>>>> down
> >>>>>>> and it
> >>>>>>> has always had a negative impact on speed.  I think the term
> >>>>>>> is VMG
> >>>>>>> (velocity made good?) which measures how much headway you're
> >>>>>>> actually
> >>>>>>> making.  If I could figure out how to measure it on my GPS I'm
> >>>>>>> sure it
> >>>>>>> would show that the board helps, but with the reduction in speed
> >>>>>>> it sure
> >>>>>>> doesn't seem that way.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Lee
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> MichaelT wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Lee,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I was just thinking about bringing the centerboard up as you
> >>>>>>>> suggested,
> >>>>>>>> but have concerns.
> >>>>>>>> Did you flip bringing the centerboard up and down. Down when
> >>>>>>>> tacking
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> up after the tack?
> >>>>>>>> I remember when I forgot to let the centerboard down and all I
> >>>>>>>> could
> >>>>>>>> remember was going sideways and difficulty in making
> >>>>>>>> headway. In
> >>>>>>>> essence
> >>>>>>>> the boat was slipping and pushed sideways by the wind when the
> >>>>>>>> centerboard is up. I suppose as long as we don't need to be
> >>>>>>>> anywhere
> >>>>>>>> soon
> >>>>>>>> this is all fine.
> >>>>>>>> At the end I'll have to let my wife judge!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Great suggestion!
> >>>>>>>> Michael
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Leland wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Michael,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You're getting lots of good advice.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You'll have a little less heel with the board up.  From the
> >>>>>>>>> Rhodes
> >>>>>>>>> Owners' Site under FAQs under Rhodes vs. Com-Pac vs.
> >>>>>>>>> Precisions:  5.
> >>>>>>>>> Retract the centerboard part way in a big breeze. The board is
> >>>>>>>>> intentionally modest in weight, and does not contribute
> >>>>>>>>> significantly
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> stability up or down. Raising the board part way will reduce
> >>>>>>>>> both heel
> >>>>>>>>> and weather helm.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The quote refers to Precisions.  If I raise the board all the
> >>>>>>>>> way on
> >>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>> Rhodes it usually only reduces heel by about 3 degrees but
> >>>>>>>>> your
> >>>>>>>>> wife
> >>>>>>>>> may
> >>>>>>>>> appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> In an 8-10 knot wind, lowering the boom will reduce heel also.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As Dave mentioned the boat sails better with two sails.
> >>>>>>>>> For the
> >>>>>>>>> amount
> >>>>>>>>> of wind you described you probably weren't going fast
> >>>>>>>>> enough to
> >>>>>>>>> tack.
> >>>>>>>>> Come off the wind enough to get up some speed and you'll then
> >>>>>>>>> be able
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> turn her sharply into the wind.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> When I first got my Rhodes I typically had too much sail out.
> >>>>>>>>> You
> >>>>>>>>> were
> >>>>>>>>> wise to be conservative in your sail plan, but without any
> >>>>>>>>> headsail
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> so little main you probably couldn't get enough speed to tack
> >>>>>>>>> even if
> >>>>>>>>> you had come off the wind.  Last week I was in a 12 knot wind.
> >>>>>>>>> On a
> >>>>>>>>> close reach with balanced sails with the board up and my 190
> >>>>>>>>> lbs of
> >>>>>>>>> rail
> >>>>>>>>> meat, I had less than 20 degrees of heel with the boom up and
> >>>>>>>>> the main
> >>>>>>>>> reefed to 80%.  With the boom down I had the same heel with
> >>>>>>>>> 100% main.
> >>>>>>>>> I have my mainsail furling line marked for reefs at 60% and
> >>>>>>>>> 80%.  If I
> >>>>>>>>> have to reef the tiny little main beyond 60%, it's too windy
> >>>>>>>>> for me
> >>>>>>>>> (over 20 knots) and I go home.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Good luck!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Lee
> >>>>>>>>> 1986 Rhodes22  At Ease
> >>>>>>>>> Kent Island, MD
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> david.walker5 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Tacking with the jib, especially very light or heavy wind
> >>>>>>>>>> can be
> >>>>>>>>>> challenging
> >>>>>>>>>> too.  The problem is the jib is very powerfull and it
> >>>>>>>>>> wants to
> >>>>>>>>>> push
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> boat
> >>>>>>>>>> away from the tack.  One technique that has worked for me is
> >>>>>>>>>> something
> >>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>> borrowed from sailing a square rigger.  When you push the
> >>>>>>>>>> tiller to
> >>>>>>>>>> lee,
> >>>>>>>>>> loosen the jibe immediately, but do not let the sheet fly.
> >>>>>>>>>> (for
> >>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>> interested its called scandalizing the jib)  This reduces the
> >>>>>>>>>> drive
> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> sail and allows it to turn up wind.  Just as the bow comes
> >>>>>>>>>> into the
> >>>>>>>>>> wind,
> >>>>>>>>>> tighten the sheet a little. The wind will then backwind the
> >>>>>>>>>> jib and
> >>>>>>>>>> push the
> >>>>>>>>>> bow the rest of the way onto the new tack. As you come
> >>>>>>>>>> through
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> wind, the
> >>>>>>>>>> wind on the new tack will push the sail across to the new
> >>>>>>>>>> tack.  In
> >>>>>>>>>> really
> >>>>>>>>>> heavy wind you may end up "in stays" or headed into the
> >>>>>>>>>> wind and
> >>>>>>>>>> start
> >>>>>>>>>> to be
> >>>>>>>>>> pushed backwards.  In that case as I said in an earlier post,
> >>>>>>>>>> shift
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> rudder (tiller to windward) and the boat will back onto the
> >>>>>>>>>> new tack
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> start to sail.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> David Walker
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Event Specialists
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> 781-639-2707 Office
> >>>>>>>>>> 781-718-8690 Cell
> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>>>> From: "Stephen Staum" <staum at earthlink.net>
> >>>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:32 PM
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
> >>>>>>>>>>> I too have a wife who likes to sail flat. I have an '87 w a
> >>>>>>>>>>> 184 per
> >>>>>>>>>>> cent genoa. I usually start w 1/2 of the genny as the jib
> >>>>>>>>>>> really
> >>>>>>>>>>> powers this boat. Even w the full main out (alone) u will
> >>>>>>>>>>> struggle
> >>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> come about. Also, if u have the full jib out in light winds,
> >>>>>>>>>>> it can
> >>>>>>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>>>>>> very difficult 2 get the jib 2 come across when coming
> >>>>>>>>>>> about.
> >>>>>>>>>>> It is
> >>>>>>>>>>> often easier 2 jibe or roll up 1/2 the jib b4 come about is
> >>>>>>>>>>> started.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Enjoy!
> >>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Staum
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2009, at 12:47 PM, MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Went out with the family on Sunday and wanted to play it
> >>>>>>>>>>>> safe.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drew the IMF mainsail approx halfway on the boom (the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> letter
> >>>>>>>>>>>> R on
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the sail
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't showing).
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Wanted to keep things simple and used no jib. Centerboard
> >>>>>>>>>>>> was down
> >>>>>>>>>>>> all the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> way.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The boat stayed flat as a pancake which was the desired
> >>>>>>>>>>>> effect.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> My wife wants no heeling whatsoever. Problem I had was I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> tack.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It even had a hard time getting into irons and just
> >>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> cutover.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The only way I could change direction was to spin 2/3's
> >>>>>>>>>>>> around in a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> jibe.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to experiment and let out more sail so we
> >>>>>>>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>>>>>>> enjoyed
> >>>>>>>>>>>> sailing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the next hour like this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is this normal behaviour? What am I doing wrong?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Michael
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-
> >>>>>>>>>>>> tp24647946p24647946.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> list go
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> >>>>>>>>>>> list go
> >>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> >>>>>>>>>> list go
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> View this message in context:
> >>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24681160.html
> >>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
> >>>>>> go to
> >>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> >>>>> list go
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> View this message in context:
> >>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24685194.html
> >>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> >>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
> >>> go to
> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> View this message in context:
> >> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24698152.html
> >> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
> >> go to
> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> __________________________________________________
> >>
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
>
> Lou Rosenberg
> Videographer
>
> Steinhardt School of Culture, Education and
> Human Development at NYU
>
> 239 Greene Street, Room 315
> lsr3 at nyu.edu
>
> (212) 998-5122
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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