[Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)

[BenCittadino]

John;
You're referring to the old US car manufacturers technique known as "the
pizza principle". Sell the basic model for a decent price but add on an
outrageous markup for each option. The Japanese kicked our butts when they
put all the good stuff in every car and the only choice was color. 

I don't think the stripped down racing Rhodes would be that much less
expensive to build, or that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not building
or selling boats, or cars.

I just want to know where I can get parts and/or accessories without losing
a friend, if I can help it, and if it's fair and reasonable.

BenCittadino



John Shulick wrote:
> 
> Rick,
> 
> Excellent taking on the Niagara I bet that was fun. Most guys are
> competetive in nature and stripping down the R22 for speed would appeal to
> that group of guys who want to go and still have some creature comforts. A
> lower price point would also expand the potential group of buyers who
> would consider having a Rhodes 22 in their lives. The extras would still
> be there if so desired and could be sold as add ons. 
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> Rick-139 wrote:
>> 
>> John,
>> 
>> I was referring to organized racing.  Actually, I try to race any
>> sailboat I
>> can find on the lake.  Once I took on the brig Niagara.  It was an even
>> match while she was sailing only with gaff and lateen sails.  Then they
>> dropped her square sails--it felt like my R22 was standing still as the
>> crowd waved and hooted over her transom..
>> 
>> Rick
>> 
>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:52 AM, John Shulick <jsbudda at verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>> Rick,
>>>
>>> I see your point clearly on the subject but I also see Davids idea of
>>> options to increase sales. How about dropping the IMF, ditch the head,
>>> the
>>> on board water tank, the batteries, the fancy motor lift, re-model the
>>> interior and selling it as a "sport model" My wife and I live on the
>>> boat
>>> almost every weekend and find a porta potty and crank lights sufficient.
>>> Being a camper before a sailor I have found the R22 to be a first class
>>> floating campground without the pain of hiking in. I also have had the
>>> perverse pleasure one weekend of sailing rings around a macgregor 26
>>> using
>>> it like a no wake buoy as the kids pleaded at their father to make the
>>> mac
>>> go faster. Racer/Cruiser is more fun than Cruiser/Racer. Even if you're
>>> not
>>> racing its fun to be faster.
>>>
>>> Respectfully submitted,
>>> John Shulick
>>>
>>>
>>> Rick-139 wrote:
>>> >
>>> > David,
>>> >
>>> > I hate to be the wet blanket again.  But racing sailboats is a whole
>>> > 'nother
>>> > market.  The key to convincing a customer to buy a sailboat for racing
>>> is
>>> > to
>>> > convince him or her that they will have lots of other sailboats to
>>> race
>>> > against.
>>> >
>>> > In the one design game, it involves high volume production and a
>>> > distribution system that can execute geographically concentrated sales
>>> and
>>> > support. J Boats has been successful doing that in the Great Lakes
>>> with
>>> > the
>>> > J 22 and other longer models. Plus, J Boats has a respectable history
>>> of
>>> > maintaining one design integrity.
>>> >
>>> > Of course, there's always PHRF racing.  But how many 20 - 25 foot
>>> cruising
>>> > sailboat owners are left with an interest in racing?
>>> >
>>> > Unlike 30 years ago, most people today who buy cruising or day sailing
>>> > boats
>>> > in the low 20's length are first timers.  From there, they either drop
>>> out
>>> > or they move to larger boats more popular for cruising, racing or
>>> both.
>>> > Catalina and Hunter have turned the market into that by making cheap
>>> > starter
>>> > boats people can easily abandon for yachts.  Stan's main problem is he
>>> now
>>> > has a product that goes against the prevailing mindset that has
>>> evolved
>>> > for
>>> > his market.
>>> >
>>> > Did you read the article "The Little Boat that Could" in August issue
>>> of
>>> > Sailing?  The title itself is a reflection of that mindset.  And
>>> despite
>>> > all
>>> > kinds of compliments about the R22, the piece ends with:  "More
>>> important,
>>> > where does one get a new tiller for a Rhodes 22?"  That's some insult
>>> to
>>> a
>>> > builder who has admirably supported his product for decades.  But
>>> again,
>>> > that's part of the same mindset.
>>> >
>>> > Rick
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:04 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Rick:
>>> >> What I am saying is that this boat is unique and I can't go down to
>>> the
>>> >> local boatyard and get some of the major parts that I might need. 
>>> Also,
>>> >> I
>>> >> can't send an email or make a phone call to the guy who built the
>>> boat
>>> at
>>> >> most places and expect a response.  That's probably worth something
>>> to
>>> >> keep
>>> >> the operation rolling as long as Stan does his part.  I don't think
>>> you
>>> >> ought to pay royalty/loyalty if you don't get anything for it.  If
>>> the
>>> >> group
>>> >> feels we are getting something worth paying for, then I'm just
>>> suggesting
>>> >> a
>>> >> small stipend annually to Stan which if everyone participates might
>>> be a
>>> >> better solution then a percentage up front facing new owners for
>>> >> loyalty/royalty.  The 5% on the seller side will figure into the
>>> price
>>> >> and
>>> >> it gets the new owner out of any obligation to pay a royalty/loyalty
>>> up
>>> >> front for two years.  Then, continued association membership will
>>> require
>>> >> the annual dues.
>>> >>
>>> >> Imagine if you bought a Ford or Chevy used and then were asked to
>>> send a
>>> >> 5%
>>> >> fee to the factory.  Nobody would... but this is not a Ford or Chevy. 
>>> I
>>> >> figure some type of ongoing support is probably reasonable as long as
>>> we
>>> >> get
>>> >> good owner support and parts availability.  For example, if someone
>>> comes
>>> >> along and hits my rudder in the slip and I need a new one, there
>>> ought
>>> to
>>> >> be
>>> >> a spare waiting at the factory to ship out.   If someone blows a sail
>>> >> out,
>>> >> there should be one ready to ship and the right color too.  I don't
>>> know
>>> >> if
>>> >> this is the case at GBI because spare parts mean overhead and I don't
>>> >> know
>>> >> how much overhead Stan is willing to carry.  Maybe parts for
>>> non-members
>>> >> ought to carry a premium that members don't have to pay-so another
>>> added
>>> >> incentive to be one of the family.
>>> >>
>>> >> I hear what you are saying about the market.  Long term, owners are
>>> not
>>> >> going to be the ones to keep GBI afloat.  You have got to get new
>>> >> customers
>>> >> through the door.  There have been a lot of good suggestions given by
>>> a
>>> >> lot
>>> >> of experienced people on the list.  My experiences with family run
>>> >> businesses are that we are very happy to take your money but you can
>>> keep
>>> >> your advice to yourself.  However, Stan seems open to some
>>> suggestions.
>>> >>
>>> >> Stan has an excellent product, more people need to know about it as
>>> >> someone
>>> >> has mentioned.  A new boat is becoming cost prohibitive for most, 
>>> the
>>> >> recycling is a good second market but I think you need a "less
>>> frills"
>>> >> model
>>> >> to get younger couples through the doors.  You would have to be able
>>> to
>>> >> build it with the same quality, using the same molds at an attractive
>>> >> price
>>> >> point and I don't know if that is possible.  I thought maybe a
>>> stripped
>>> >> down
>>> >> racing version might be a solution.  Racers don't need much down
>>> below
>>> >> and
>>> >> will pay for quality above.  The Rhodes is faster then a Catalina to
>>> >> being
>>> >> with and that would appeal to a lot of people.
>>> >>
>>> >> Just my thoughts,
>>> >> David
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:28:36 -0400
>>> >> From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> >> Message-ID:
>>> >>       <52e9a140907261428v6feebf53l4e923711b987ec30 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>
>>> >> David,
>>> >>
>>> >> When I was considering buying my R22, the PO said, "I can give you
>>> the
>>> >> home
>>> >> phone number of the guy who makes the boat and he will talk to you at
>>> any
>>> >> time."  Of course, that tilted me to buy his boat and subsequently
>>> buy
>>> >> many
>>> >> things from Stan.
>>> >>
>>> >> Are you suggesting Stan discontinues this attractive offering in the
>>> >> shrunken marketplace for pocket cruiser sailboats?  I think it will
>>> just
>>> >> turn customers toward high volume boats where technical information
>>> and
>>> >> spare parts are readily available.
>>> >>
>>> >> Rick
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 4:49 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > Stan:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Thank you for your insight into the business.  I dare say that most
>>> >> > sailboat
>>> >> > owners don't get the inside track on happenings at the factory; if
>>> the
>>> >> > factory is even still in business that is.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I want to comment on the loyalty/royalty program concerning the
>>> Rhodes.
>>> >>  My
>>> >> > experience in boat ownership over the years is that a used boat
>>> >> purchaser
>>> >> > always spends the maximum funds set aside for the purchase.  Either
>>> the
>>> >> > purchase price and the taxes consume the entire amount or the new
>>> owner
>>> >> > takes any funds left and applies them to things the boat needs. 
>>> And
>>> we
>>> >> all
>>> >> > know that used boats need something all the time.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > It is a bit of a sticky wicket let's say, to request from a new
>>> owner
>>> 5
>>> >> %
>>> >> > of
>>> >> > the purchase price be paid to GBI when they have probably spent
>>> more
>>> >> money
>>> >> > then they intended to begin with.  The Rhodes 22 is the top of the
>>> >> scale
>>> >> in
>>> >> > 22' boats and used prices are not cheap.  We see it all the time on
>>> the
>>> >> > list...  Folks are interested in the Rhodes but they are trying to
>>> >> purchase
>>> >> > it on a "Catalina" budget; so they "lurk" on the list either saving
>>> up
>>> >> > their
>>> >> > cash or hoping to see a cheap boat come up for sale whereby they
>>> >> promptly
>>> >> > go
>>> >> > off-list and complete the transaction.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > You will remember in my case, that I sent GBI a check for $ 200.00
>>> to
>>> >> cover
>>> >> > the promotional materials you sent me-but that was not 5% of the
>>> price
>>> >> I
>>> >> > paid.  In the meantime, I have enjoyed the technical support that I
>>> >> have
>>> >> > received as a member of the list from the owners and from yourself.
>>> >> That
>>> >> > is
>>> >> > worth something, even though I didn't realize it in the beginning.
>>> >> This
>>> >> > boat and this list are pretty unique to the boating world.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I propose and this will make some people on this list unhappy, in
>>> fact,
>>> >> > very
>>> >> > unhappy.... An Owner's association with an annual fee.  For that
>>> annual
>>> >> > fee,
>>> >> > you have got to provide something however.  Which is another
>>> problem
>>> >> with
>>> >> a
>>> >> > royalty fee upfront; people always need to feel that they are
>>> getting
>>> >> > something for their money.   In this case, for the annual
>>> association
>>> >> fee:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Admission to the list
>>> >> > Technical support either from members or the factory
>>> >> > Availability and a price list of parts, sails, etc. that is kept up
>>> to
>>> >> date
>>> >> > so I can purchase it from you if I need something.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Except for the parts and prices, this is pretty much what we are
>>> doing
>>> >> > already.  Maybe you could come up with some member specials on
>>> pricing
>>> >> from
>>> >> > time to time for sails or parts or write an occasional article that
>>> >> only
>>> >> > members would get.  I don't want to burden you with a bunch of
>>> extra
>>> >> work,
>>> >> > but there needs to be something unique about membership.  In this
>>> way,
>>> >> the
>>> >> > new owner would feel they are getting something and it would
>>> generate
>>> >> > revenue for you over the longer term.  As part of the membership,
>>> if
>>> we
>>> >> > agree to give you 5% of the selling price when we sell, then I
>>> don't
>>> >> have
>>> >> a
>>> >> > problem with it; especially if the list helps my estate sell the
>>> boat.
>>> >> >  I'll
>>> >> > even stipulate it in my will.  I figure if I owe a "loyalty fee",
>>> it
>>> is
>>> >> > probably to the list members who have taken their time and been so
>>> >> helpful
>>> >> > over the years.  If paying you a "royalty" fee helps keep GBI in
>>> >> business
>>> >> > then that helps them and you.  As a seller, if I pay 5% then it
>>> gets
>>> my
>>> >> > buyer on the list free for two years.  Then he/she can do the
>>> >> responsible
>>> >> > thing and start paying their own royalty/loyalty dues.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > The other situation which started the discussion in the beginning
>>> has
>>> >> to
>>> >> do
>>> >> > with after-market products or other parts unique to the Rhodes.  If
>>> a
>>> >> > member
>>> >> > has an after-market item to sell to the list which is unique to the
>>> >> Rhodes
>>> >> > and/or would normally be available from GBI for sale, then he/she
>>> goes
>>> >> > through you.  They can advertise it and discuss it; but I buy it
>>> from
>>> >> you
>>> >> > after you have added your mark up or it cannot be advertised on the
>>> >> > member's
>>> >> > list by another member or by a third party.  Simple as that.  They
>>> are
>>> >> a
>>> >> > supplier of General Boats and you are the distributor to me.
>>> >> Obviously,
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > list membership information is kept proprietary to prevent direct
>>> >> marketing
>>> >> > by a third party.  If a member tries to go behind your back... we
>>> can
>>> >> take
>>> >> > care of that.  If something comes up for sale on the open-market
>>> that
>>> >> is
>>> >> > unique to the Rhodes 22 and there are legal issues, then that is a
>>> >> > discussion for lawyers and not for this forum.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Right now MJM is administering the list.  I think he or whomever
>>> takes
>>> >> on
>>> >> > those duties gets their membership free.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I hope you will take these suggestions under advisement and if it
>>> is
>>> of
>>> >> > interest, let us know what you think the annual membership fee
>>> should
>>> >> be.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > For everyone else, let the flaming begin....  But just keep in mind
>>> >> what
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > purpose is here.  Trying to come up with something palatable to
>>> help
>>> >> GBI
>>> >> > now
>>> >> > and us in the long run.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > David
>>> >> >
>>> >> > PS:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Other thoughts:  The Rhodes 22 website is "technically" one of the
>>> best
>>> >> I
>>> >> > have ever seen as far as the boat information goes.  However, it
>>> needs
>>> >> some
>>> >> > polish to be a more effective marketing tool.  More timely
>>> information
>>> >> and
>>> >> > more emphasis on the recycle program and availability of used boats
>>> >> comes
>>> >> > to
>>> >> > mind since new boat sales are down.  Also, have you ever considered
>>> a
>>> >> new
>>> >> > "entry level"  boat without all the bells and whistles which
>>> someone
>>> >> could
>>> >> > purchase at a bit lower price?  You've talked about a racer before.
>>> >>  Could
>>> >> > you come up with something without having to have new
>>> molds-marketed
>>> as
>>> >> a
>>> >> > "Sport" Rhodes 22?   Lower the interior weight, put a standard mast
>>> and
>>> >> > racing sails on it and a spinaker.  Catalina has a "sport model"
>>> and
>>> it
>>> >> > does
>>> >> > pretty well I think.  Just some ideas I have batted around. dc
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:46:52 -0400
>>> >> > From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
>>> >> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>> >> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> >> > Message-ID: <038FA83D95464CCFB609CA722206B2D8 at rhodes>
>>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Rose and I want to thank you all for indulging GB in the use of
>>> your
>>> >> forum
>>> >> > on an issue that is so basic to GB.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > We want to thank those that take issue with our position but
>>> attempt
>>> to
>>> >> be
>>> >> > evenhanded.  (If academically interested, we can provide exhibits
>>> and
>>> >> > witnesses that prove the accuracy of our facts.)
>>> >> >
>>> >> > We are empathetic with those who chafe at this sort of thing and
>>> remain
>>> >> > silent - in our younger days we probably would have done the same.
>>> It
>>> >> was
>>> >> > not until 50 that we adopted our tribe's slogan of  "never again"
>>> and
>>> >> took
>>> >> > on anyone who wronged us:  A policeman.  A lawyer.  a station wagon
>>> >> full
>>> >> of
>>> >> > nuns (just kidding about the station wagon), a giant corporation to
>>> >> > docketing at the US Supreme Court.   We prevailed in all these pro
>>> se
>>> >> > actions simply because we do not complain unless the facts and
>>> logic
>>> >> are
>>> >> > solidly on our side - but we digress.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > And, in particular, we want to thank those who understand the
>>> logical
>>> >> side
>>> >> > of our position and offered suggestions.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Re the issue of the Loyalty/Royalty program:   Its reasoning seems
>>> so
>>> >> > correct that it is hard to comprehend dissent.  Those thinking us
>>> crazy
>>> >> for
>>> >> > such radical thinking have to sit in this chair for just one day.
>>> >> > Interestingly, dissenters enjoy products from many segments of
>>> industry
>>> >> who
>>> >> > have already worked out such support programs, yet these dissenters
>>> >> seem
>>> >> to
>>> >> > be drawing their own grandfather clause line as to which industries
>>> >> should
>>> >> > not be entitled to residuals on their efforts.   Those in this
>>> group
>>> >> have
>>> >> > but to request and we will expand on the good sense of this
>>> program.
>>> >> It
>>> >> > has been emotionally gratifying seeing former members of the "You
>>> must
>>> >> be
>>> >> > crazy" society, when, becoming members of the "List" family, seeing
>>> the
>>> >> > light and converting.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Re the issue of the 50 years creating a unique product now having
>>> >> others
>>> >> > take bites of its parts for their unilateral gain, if not resolved,
>>> >> will
>>> >> > come home to bite us all.   ( When I walked out of the hallowed
>>> halls
>>> >> of
>>> >> > ole
>>> >> > PU I vowed not to go into business because I could not stand the
>>> ethics
>>> >> I
>>> >> > saw, and assumed, had to go with that territory.  But it was
>>> >> pre-ordained;
>>> >> > I
>>> >> > ended up spending most of my life a driving capitalist.   And it
>>> has
>>> >> been
>>> >> a
>>> >> > blast, for me and my partner of 60 years - because we made the
>>> making
>>> >> of
>>> >> > money our secondary goal.   (The effects of that kind of religious
>>> >> fervor
>>> >> > has surprisingly turned out to be rough on our opponents.)   There
>>> are
>>> >> ways
>>> >> > we can go to stop the taking of free bites of the profitable parts
>>> side
>>> >> of
>>> >> > GB's business::
>>> >> >
>>> >> > When we sold Venture Sailboats (Macgregor), dealers could buy sails
>>> >> > elsewhere and make an additional profit on Roger's creation at
>>> Roger's
>>> >> > expense.  Roger, who graduated at the top of his class at Stamford,
>>> >> simply
>>> >> > raised the price of his boat and included sails.  Being the tough
>>> >> business
>>> >> > man he is, he did it without notice and dealers had to eat their
>>> sail
>>> >> > inventories they bought elsewhere.  We are slow learners but could
>>> >> price
>>> >> > Rhodes sales to include a part an outside seller has latched onto.
>>> >> Or,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > We could simply be unresponsive to boat owners who purchase parts,
>>> >> unique
>>> >> > to
>>> >> > the Rhodes design, from others in competition with GB or who fail
>>> to
>>> >> honor
>>> >> > agreements with GB.   We inherently do not like this retaliatory
>>> type
>>> >> of
>>> >> > solution, but it is a solution.   Or
>>> >> >
>>> >> > We could simply close shop and that would close the market for
>>> >> unauthorized
>>> >> > parts vendors.   This "cutting off ones nose" solution is not our
>>> >> choice.
>>> >> >  However, not taking on rogue suppliers, eating away at the life
>>> cash
>>> >> flow
>>> >> > of the company, makes it an inevitable solution.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > In an effort to avoid any of the above solutions, based on the
>>> thinking
>>> >> of
>>> >> > List members in this particular complaint of GB vs. Art C, we have
>>> some
>>> >> > proposals that we will present to the List next week for your
>>> >> appreciated
>>> >> > feedback.  The pro bono time we are having to devote to the
>>> problems
>>> >> and
>>> >> > questions of private sale Rhodes is becoming so overwhelming (and
>>> we
>>> >> hate
>>> >> > to
>>> >> > be mean spirited enough to tell them where to go) that we just
>>> can't
>>> >> seem
>>> >> > to
>>> >> > manage all of this issue in one sitting.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ss
>>> >> > __________________________________________________
>>> >> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>> to
>>> >> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >> > __________________________________________________
>>> >> >
>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>> to
>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>> >>
>>> > __________________________________________________
>>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> > __________________________________________________
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
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>> 
> 
> 

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