[Rhodes22-list] Fw: general boat's dilema

John johnrowland at optonline.net
Tue Jul 28 21:50:41 EDT 2009


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John" <johnrowland at optonline.net>
To: <rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's dilema


>I have submitted one or two messages to the list, but would like to get 
>more involved.  I purchased a 1989 Rhodes22 about 1 year ago.  I have raced 
>Mariners years ago, owned a few O'Days, and never found a boat that I enjoy 
>more than this one.  Heaven forbid General Boats has problems.  There is no 
>owner loyalty, or construction quality (or--even more important--customer 
>service) that compares with this company.  While I probably cannot attend 
>the Annapolis Show, I need to know what I (and other loyal owners) can do 
>to keep this company strong.
>
> I have been amazed at the discussions on this list (with the exception of 
> the political issues regarding the last election).  My goodness, where 
> else can I learn about how to sail more effectively and fix whatever 
> problems I have on the boat.  I do not call a customer service number that 
> keeps me on hold for hours--I talk to the owner of the company!!
>
> I will not get involved in discussions regarding royalties, but do think 
> that each of us owes Stan some support in keeping this boat alive.
>
> I am actually in a slip next to a Hunter 40, and I am happier with this 
> boat.
>
> I read a lot of e-mails from individuals who offer suggestions about other 
> members issues and questions.  What better support canone get than this?
>
> I keep the boat at a slip at the Brant Beach Yacht Club in Brant Beach, 
> New Jersey and look forward to meeting other owners in the area.
>
> John
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rick" <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's dilema
>
>
>> $1.97
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Arthur H. Czerwonky <
>> czerwonky at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Rick,
>>>
>>> Good idea, buddy!  Somehow to add a unique personal touch.  I would add,
>>> however, that Mary Lou really does not need to dance on table tops at 
>>> the
>>> Annapolis show.  Fred,  Pleassse!
>>>
>>> I agree with the blazers, but, as we are in shoestring mode, what about 
>>> a
>>> Hanes T-shirt,  and of course, hospitality hot dogs with lots of mustard 
>>> and
>>> relish.  Seriously, I embroidered some nice looking T-shirts for the '07
>>> show, different color each day, some were 'Name, and rhodes22.com', and
>>> some were 'name, boomroom, rhodes22.com', each comma'd section above the
>>> other.  They were noticed by our visitors, never a comment or compliment
>>> otherwise.  You might have to get used to it... rhoadies are tough.
>>>
>>> Let's gel some more ideas for Stan to use.  At least it engages the
>>> imagination of the smart cookies in our magnificent Rhodes fleet.
>>>
>>> No commissions or royalty this time either, guys.  What do you charge,
>>> Rick?
>>>
>>> Art
>>> s/v Mary Jane
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>>> >Sent: Jul 28, 2009 2:00 PM
>>> >To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's dilema
>>> >
>>> >Art,
>>> >
>>> >Using owners at shows sounds like a good idea.  Carver has success with
>>> that
>>> >at the Cleveland show, dressing everyone up the same way in blue 
>>> >blazers.
>>> >
>>> >I doubt any mass media advertising would have payback.  Since all the
>>> major
>>> >sailing magazines have been pushing for so long the Catalina wave that 
>>> >you
>>> >start at 22 feet and buy up from there, a GBI ad would be swamped. 
>>> >Maybe
>>> >direct mail to long-time owners on state and Coast Guard sailboat
>>> >registration lists, pushing the R22 as a quality downsize option?
>>> >
>>> >Rick
>>> >
>>> >On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Arthur H. Czerwonky <
>>> >czerwonky at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> John, Rob,
>>> >>
>>> >> You may recall that Stan proposed a stripped down version, call it a
>>> racing
>>> >> model, on the list a few years ago, and although I expressed interest 
>>> >> in
>>> >> this new boat option to him, maybe others too, no further information
>>> was
>>> >> provided to my knowledge.  Back at that time Stan expressed his 
>>> >> ability
>>> to
>>> >> produce, and now maybe he will further reconsider and tell us more 
>>> >> about
>>> >> what he had in mind.  I still am interested, speaking for myself as a
>>> >> potential buyer.  I will watch for any response.  Did anyone get
>>> detailed
>>> >> information on this boat?
>>> >>
>>> >> I have suggested the value of baseline ad exposure.  If nothing else,
>>> >> targeted reinforcement to the boat show displays that are so 
>>> >> important.
>>> >>  Maybe followup visits by experienced skippers.  I have been told by 
>>> >> one
>>> of
>>> >> our newer skippers that my 'hot dog hospitality' aboard Mary Jane at 
>>> >> the
>>> '07
>>> >> show tipped the sale toward his boat purchase with him and his wife.
>>>  BTW,
>>> >> no commission provided or requested.  The presence of skippers at the
>>> show
>>> >> is valuable - a third party evaluation of their own boat, and with 
>>> >> 'no
>>> axe
>>> >> to grind'.  Consider it for yourself in support of Stan, as I did 
>>> >> twice.
>>> >>  You would have one very positive impression of how GB and a huge 
>>> >> number
>>> of
>>> >> other boat makers reach their customers.  Our skippers who are so
>>> willing to
>>> >> give demos, whether at shows or not, are such valuable ambassadors 
>>> >> for
>>> GB.
>>> >>  Having done it a number of times, it is really fun as well as being
>>> >> productive.  Try it, you'll like it!  Let's be specific - Can some of
>>> you
>>> >> skipper demos at Annapoli!
>>> >>  s or St Pete or elsewhere?
>>> >>
>>> >> Cutting to the chase, who has some real connections to options and
>>> selling
>>> >> /advertising connections that could help get Stan and GB out of this
>>> 'black
>>> >> hole' that the company appears to be in?  It could be just a few
>>> positive
>>> >> levers to pull that would enable better results, even in our current
>>> puuuny
>>> >> economy.  Who is willing to pen letters of endorsement to
>>> prospects/suspects
>>> >> that could tip the scales, one by one.   Time to get the horses out 
>>> >> of
>>> the
>>> >> barn, guys.
>>> >>
>>> >> Like Mark Twain or someone else once said, let's get the P in our 
>>> >> Pot!
>>> >>
>>> >> Respectfully,
>>> >>
>>> >> Art
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> >From: John Shulick <jsbudda at verizon.net>
>>> >> >Sent: Jul 28, 2009 11:02 AM
>>> >> >To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>> >> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Rob,
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Yep that pretty much covers it. Now what would the price point be 
>>> >> >for
>>> such
>>> >> a
>>> >> >boat? I have the origional literature that came with my 71 and you
>>> should
>>> >> >see that show package special price!!!
>>> >> >
>>> >> >John S.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Rob Lowe wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Drop the IMF, ditch the head, the water tank, the fancy motor 
>>> >> >> lift,
>>> and
>>> >> >> re-model the interior?  Now you have my 1976 boat! I do have 
>>> >> >> battery
>>> >> >> though. - rob
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> >> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>> >> >> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of John
>>> Shulick
>>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:52 AM
>>> >> >> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Rick,
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I see your point clearly on the subject but I also see Davids idea 
>>> >> >> of
>>> >> >> options to increase sales. How about dropping the IMF, ditch the
>>> head,
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >> on board water tank, the batteries, the fancy motor lift, re-model
>>> the
>>> >> >> interior and selling it as a "sport model" My wife and I live on 
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >> boat
>>> >> >> almost every weekend and find a porta potty and crank lights
>>> sufficient.
>>> >> >> Being a camper before a sailor I have found the R22 to be a first
>>> class
>>> >> >> floating campground without the pain of hiking in. I also have had
>>> the
>>> >> >> perverse pleasure one weekend of sailing rings around a macgregor 
>>> >> >> 26
>>> >> >> using
>>> >> >> it like a no wake buoy as the kids pleaded at their father to make
>>> the
>>> >> >> mac
>>> >> >> go faster. Racer/Cruiser is more fun than Cruiser/Racer. Even if
>>> you're
>>> >> >> not
>>> >> >> racing its fun to be faster.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Respectfully submitted,
>>> >> >> John Shulick
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Rick-139 wrote:
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> David,
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I hate to be the wet blanket again.  But racing sailboats is a 
>>> >> >>> whole
>>> >> >>> 'nother
>>> >> >>> market.  The key to convincing a customer to buy a sailboat for
>>> racing
>>> >> >> is
>>> >> >>> to
>>> >> >>> convince him or her that they will have lots of other sailboats 
>>> >> >>> to
>>> >> >> race
>>> >> >>> against.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> In the one design game, it involves high volume production and a
>>> >> >>> distribution system that can execute geographically concentrated
>>> sales
>>> >> >> and
>>> >> >>> support. J Boats has been successful doing that in the Great 
>>> >> >>> Lakes
>>> >> >> with
>>> >> >>> the
>>> >> >>> J 22 and other longer models. Plus, J Boats has a respectable
>>> history
>>> >> >> of
>>> >> >>> maintaining one design integrity.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Of course, there's always PHRF racing.  But how many 20 - 25 foot
>>> >> >> cruising
>>> >> >>> sailboat owners are left with an interest in racing?
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Unlike 30 years ago, most people today who buy cruising or day
>>> sailing
>>> >> >>> boats
>>> >> >>> in the low 20's length are first timers.  From there, they either
>>> drop
>>> >> >> out
>>> >> >>> or they move to larger boats more popular for cruising, racing or
>>> >> >> both.
>>> >> >>> Catalina and Hunter have turned the market into that by making 
>>> >> >>> cheap
>>> >> >>> starter
>>> >> >>> boats people can easily abandon for yachts.  Stan's main problem 
>>> >> >>> is
>>> he
>>> >> >> now
>>> >> >>> has a product that goes against the prevailing mindset that has
>>> >> >> evolved
>>> >> >>> for
>>> >> >>> his market.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Did you read the article "The Little Boat that Could" in August
>>> issue
>>> >> >> of
>>> >> >>> Sailing?  The title itself is a reflection of that mindset.  And
>>> >> >> despite
>>> >> >>> all
>>> >> >>> kinds of compliments about the R22, the piece ends with:  "More
>>> >> >> important,
>>> >> >>> where does one get a new tiller for a Rhodes 22?"  That's some
>>> insult
>>> >> >> to a
>>> >> >>> builder who has admirably supported his product for decades.  But
>>> >> >> again,
>>> >> >>> that's part of the same mindset.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Rick
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:04 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>> Rick:
>>> >> >>>> What I am saying is that this boat is unique and I can't go down 
>>> >> >>>> to
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >>>> local boatyard and get some of the major parts that I might 
>>> >> >>>> need.
>>> >> >> Also,
>>> >> >>>> I
>>> >> >>>> can't send an email or make a phone call to the guy who built 
>>> >> >>>> the
>>> >> >> boat at
>>> >> >>>> most places and expect a response.  That's probably worth 
>>> >> >>>> something
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >>>> keep
>>> >> >>>> the operation rolling as long as Stan does his part.  I don't 
>>> >> >>>> think
>>> >> >> you
>>> >> >>>> ought to pay royalty/loyalty if you don't get anything for it. 
>>> >> >>>> If
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >>>> group
>>> >> >>>> feels we are getting something worth paying for, then I'm just
>>> >> >> suggesting
>>> >> >>>> a
>>> >> >>>> small stipend annually to Stan which if everyone participates 
>>> >> >>>> might
>>> >> >> be a
>>> >> >>>> better solution then a percentage up front facing new owners for
>>> >> >>>> loyalty/royalty.  The 5% on the seller side will figure into the
>>> >> >> price
>>> >> >>>> and
>>> >> >>>> it gets the new owner out of any obligation to pay a
>>> royalty/loyalty
>>> >> >> up
>>> >> >>>> front for two years.  Then, continued association membership 
>>> >> >>>> will
>>> >> >> require
>>> >> >>>> the annual dues.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Imagine if you bought a Ford or Chevy used and then were asked 
>>> >> >>>> to
>>> >> >> send a
>>> >> >>>> 5%
>>> >> >>>> fee to the factory.  Nobody would... but this is not a Ford or
>>> Chevy.
>>> >> >> I
>>> >> >>>> figure some type of ongoing support is probably reasonable as 
>>> >> >>>> long
>>> as
>>> >> >> we
>>> >> >>>> get
>>> >> >>>> good owner support and parts availability.  For example, if 
>>> >> >>>> someone
>>> >> >> comes
>>> >> >>>> along and hits my rudder in the slip and I need a new one, there
>>> >> >> ought to
>>> >> >>>> be
>>> >> >>>> a spare waiting at the factory to ship out.   If someone blows a
>>> sail
>>> >> >>>> out,
>>> >> >>>> there should be one ready to ship and the right color too.  I 
>>> >> >>>> don't
>>> >> >> know
>>> >> >>>> if
>>> >> >>>> this is the case at GBI because spare parts mean overhead and I
>>> don't
>>> >> >>>> know
>>> >> >>>> how much overhead Stan is willing to carry.  Maybe parts for
>>> >> >> non-members
>>> >> >>>> ought to carry a premium that members don't have to pay-so 
>>> >> >>>> another
>>> >> >> added
>>> >> >>>> incentive to be one of the family.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> I hear what you are saying about the market.  Long term, owners 
>>> >> >>>> are
>>> >> >> not
>>> >> >>>> going to be the ones to keep GBI afloat.  You have got to get 
>>> >> >>>> new
>>> >> >>>> customers
>>> >> >>>> through the door.  There have been a lot of good suggestions 
>>> >> >>>> given
>>> by
>>> >> >> a
>>> >> >>>> lot
>>> >> >>>> of experienced people on the list.  My experiences with family 
>>> >> >>>> run
>>> >> >>>> businesses are that we are very happy to take your money but you
>>> can
>>> >> >> keep
>>> >> >>>> your advice to yourself.  However, Stan seems open to some
>>> >> >> suggestions.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Stan has an excellent product, more people need to know about it 
>>> >> >>>> as
>>> >> >>>> someone
>>> >> >>>> has mentioned.  A new boat is becoming cost prohibitive for 
>>> >> >>>> most,
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >>>> recycling is a good second market but I think you need a "less
>>> >> >> frills"
>>> >> >>>> model
>>> >> >>>> to get younger couples through the doors.  You would have to be
>>> able
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >>>> build it with the same quality, using the same molds at an
>>> attractive
>>> >> >>>> price
>>> >> >>>> point and I don't know if that is possible.  I thought maybe a
>>> >> >> stripped
>>> >> >>>> down
>>> >> >>>> racing version might be a solution.  Racers don't need much down
>>> >> >> below
>>> >> >>>> and
>>> >> >>>> will pay for quality above.  The Rhodes is faster then a 
>>> >> >>>> Catalina
>>> to
>>> >> >>>> being
>>> >> >>>> with and that would appeal to a lot of people.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Just my thoughts,
>>> >> >>>> David
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:28:36 -0400
>>> >> >>>> From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint 
>>> >> >>>> (continued)
>>> >> >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> >> >>>> Message-ID:
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> <52e9a140907261428v6feebf53l4e923711b987ec30 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> >> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> David,
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> When I was considering buying my R22, the PO said, "I can give 
>>> >> >>>> you
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >>>> home
>>> >> >>>> phone number of the guy who makes the boat and he will talk to 
>>> >> >>>> you
>>> at
>>> >> >> any
>>> >> >>>> time."  Of course, that tilted me to buy his boat and 
>>> >> >>>> subsequently
>>> >> >> buy
>>> >> >>>> many
>>> >> >>>> things from Stan.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Are you suggesting Stan discontinues this attractive offering in
>>> the
>>> >> >>>> shrunken marketplace for pocket cruiser sailboats?  I think it 
>>> >> >>>> will
>>> >> >> just
>>> >> >>>> turn customers toward high volume boats where technical 
>>> >> >>>> information
>>> >> >> and
>>> >> >>>> spare parts are readily available.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Rick
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 4:49 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> > Stan:
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > Thank you for your insight into the business.  I dare say that
>>> most
>>> >> >>>> > sailboat
>>> >> >>>> > owners don't get the inside track on happenings at the 
>>> >> >>>> > factory;
>>> if
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >>>> > factory is even still in business that is.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > I want to comment on the loyalty/royalty program concerning 
>>> >> >>>> > the
>>> >> >> Rhodes.
>>> >> >>>>  My
>>> >> >>>> > experience in boat ownership over the years is that a used 
>>> >> >>>> > boat
>>> >> >>>> purchaser
>>> >> >>>> > always spends the maximum funds set aside for the purchase.
>>>  Either
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >>>> > purchase price and the taxes consume the entire amount or the 
>>> >> >>>> > new
>>> >> >> owner
>>> >> >>>> > takes any funds left and applies them to things the boat 
>>> >> >>>> > needs.
>>> >> >> And we
>>> >> >>>> all
>>> >> >>>> > know that used boats need something all the time.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > It is a bit of a sticky wicket let's say, to request from a 
>>> >> >>>> > new
>>> >> >> owner 5
>>> >> >>>> %
>>> >> >>>> > of
>>> >> >>>> > the purchase price be paid to GBI when they have probably 
>>> >> >>>> > spent
>>> >> >> more
>>> >> >>>> money
>>> >> >>>> > then they intended to begin with.  The Rhodes 22 is the top of
>>> the
>>> >> >>>> scale
>>> >> >>>> in
>>> >> >>>> > 22' boats and used prices are not cheap.  We see it all the 
>>> >> >>>> > time
>>> on
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >>>> > list...  Folks are interested in the Rhodes but they are 
>>> >> >>>> > trying
>>> to
>>> >> >>>> purchase
>>> >> >>>> > it on a "Catalina" budget; so they "lurk" on the list either
>>> saving
>>> >> >> up
>>> >> >>>> > their
>>> >> >>>> > cash or hoping to see a cheap boat come up for sale whereby 
>>> >> >>>> > they
>>> >> >>>> promptly
>>> >> >>>> > go
>>> >> >>>> > off-list and complete the transaction.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > You will remember in my case, that I sent GBI a check for $
>>> 200.00
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >>>> cover
>>> >> >>>> > the promotional materials you sent me-but that was not 5% of 
>>> >> >>>> > the
>>> >> >> price
>>> >> >>>> I
>>> >> >>>> > paid.  In the meantime, I have enjoyed the technical support 
>>> >> >>>> > that
>>> I
>>> >> >>>> have
>>> >> >>>> > received as a member of the list from the owners and from
>>> yourself.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> That
>>> >> >>>> > is
>>> >> >>>> > worth something, even though I didn't realize it in the
>>> beginning.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> This
>>> >> >>>> > boat and this list are pretty unique to the boating world.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > I propose and this will make some people on this list unhappy, 
>>> >> >>>> > in
>>> >> >> fact,
>>> >> >>>> > very
>>> >> >>>> > unhappy.... An Owner's association with an annual fee.  For 
>>> >> >>>> > that
>>> >> >> annual
>>> >> >>>> > fee,
>>> >> >>>> > you have got to provide something however.  Which is another
>>> >> >> problem
>>> >> >>>> with
>>> >> >>>> a
>>> >> >>>> > royalty fee upfront; people always need to feel that they are
>>> >> >> getting
>>> >> >>>> > something for their money.   In this case, for the annual
>>> >> >> association
>>> >> >>>> fee:
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > Admission to the list
>>> >> >>>> > Technical support either from members or the factory
>>> >> >>>> > Availability and a price list of parts, sails, etc. that is 
>>> >> >>>> > kept
>>> up
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >>>> date
>>> >> >>>> > so I can purchase it from you if I need something.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > Except for the parts and prices, this is pretty much what we 
>>> >> >>>> > are
>>> >> >> doing
>>> >> >>>> > already.  Maybe you could come up with some member specials on
>>> >> >> pricing
>>> >> >>>> from
>>> >> >>>> > time to time for sails or parts or write an occasional article
>>> that
>>> >> >>>> only
>>> >> >>>> > members would get.  I don't want to burden you with a bunch of
>>> >> >> extra
>>> >> >>>> work,
>>> >> >>>> > but there needs to be something unique about membership.  In 
>>> >> >>>> > this
>>> >> >> way,
>>> >> >>>> the
>>> >> >>>> > new owner would feel they are getting something and it would
>>> >> >> generate
>>> >> >>>> > revenue for you over the longer term.  As part of the 
>>> >> >>>> > membership,
>>> >> >> if we
>>> >> >>>> > agree to give you 5% of the selling price when we sell, then I
>>> >> >> don't
>>> >> >>>> have
>>> >> >>>> a
>>> >> >>>> > problem with it; especially if the list helps my estate sell 
>>> >> >>>> > the
>>> >> >> boat.
>>> >> >>>> >  I'll
>>> >> >>>> > even stipulate it in my will.  I figure if I owe a "loyalty 
>>> >> >>>> > fee",
>>> >> >> it is
>>> >> >>>> > probably to the list members who have taken their time and 
>>> >> >>>> > been
>>> so
>>> >> >>>> helpful
>>> >> >>>> > over the years.  If paying you a "royalty" fee helps keep GBI 
>>> >> >>>> > in
>>> >> >>>> business
>>> >> >>>> > then that helps them and you.  As a seller, if I pay 5% then 
>>> >> >>>> > it
>>> >> >> gets my
>>> >> >>>> > buyer on the list free for two years.  Then he/she can do the
>>> >> >>>> responsible
>>> >> >>>> > thing and start paying their own royalty/loyalty dues.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > The other situation which started the discussion in the 
>>> >> >>>> > beginning
>>> >> >> has
>>> >> >>>> to
>>> >> >>>> do
>>> >> >>>> > with after-market products or other parts unique to the 
>>> >> >>>> > Rhodes.
>>>  If
>>> >> >> a
>>> >> >>>> > member
>>> >> >>>> > has an after-market item to sell to the list which is unique 
>>> >> >>>> > to
>>> the
>>> >> >>>> Rhodes
>>> >> >>>> > and/or would normally be available from GBI for sale, then 
>>> >> >>>> > he/she
>>> >> >> goes
>>> >> >>>> > through you.  They can advertise it and discuss it; but I buy 
>>> >> >>>> > it
>>> >> >> from
>>> >> >>>> you
>>> >> >>>> > after you have added your mark up or it cannot be advertised 
>>> >> >>>> > on
>>> the
>>> >> >>>> > member's
>>> >> >>>> > list by another member or by a third party.  Simple as that.
>>>  They
>>> >> >> are
>>> >> >>>> a
>>> >> >>>> > supplier of General Boats and you are the distributor to me.
>>> >> >>>> Obviously,
>>> >> >>>> > the
>>> >> >>>> > list membership information is kept proprietary to prevent 
>>> >> >>>> > direct
>>> >> >>>> marketing
>>> >> >>>> > by a third party.  If a member tries to go behind your back... 
>>> >> >>>> > we
>>> >> >> can
>>> >> >>>> take
>>> >> >>>> > care of that.  If something comes up for sale on the 
>>> >> >>>> > open-market
>>> >> >> that
>>> >> >>>> is
>>> >> >>>> > unique to the Rhodes 22 and there are legal issues, then that 
>>> >> >>>> > is
>>> a
>>> >> >>>> > discussion for lawyers and not for this forum.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > Right now MJM is administering the list.  I think he or 
>>> >> >>>> > whomever
>>> >> >> takes
>>> >> >>>> on
>>> >> >>>> > those duties gets their membership free.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > I hope you will take these suggestions under advisement and if 
>>> >> >>>> > it
>>> >> >> is of
>>> >> >>>> > interest, let us know what you think the annual membership fee
>>> >> >> should
>>> >> >>>> be.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > For everyone else, let the flaming begin....  But just keep in
>>> mind
>>> >> >>>> what
>>> >> >>>> > the
>>> >> >>>> > purpose is here.  Trying to come up with something palatable 
>>> >> >>>> > to
>>> >> >> help
>>> >> >>>> GBI
>>> >> >>>> > now
>>> >> >>>> > and us in the long run.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > David
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > PS:
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > Other thoughts:  The Rhodes 22 website is "technically" one of
>>> the
>>> >> >> best
>>> >> >>>> I
>>> >> >>>> > have ever seen as far as the boat information goes.  However, 
>>> >> >>>> > it
>>> >> >> needs
>>> >> >>>> some
>>> >> >>>> > polish to be a more effective marketing tool.  More timely
>>> >> >> information
>>> >> >>>> and
>>> >> >>>> > more emphasis on the recycle program and availability of used
>>> boats
>>> >> >>>> comes
>>> >> >>>> > to
>>> >> >>>> > mind since new boat sales are down.  Also, have you ever
>>> considered
>>> >> >> a
>>> >> >>>> new
>>> >> >>>> > "entry level"  boat without all the bells and whistles which
>>> >> >> someone
>>> >> >>>> could
>>> >> >>>> > purchase at a bit lower price?  You've talked about a racer
>>> before.
>>> >> >>>>  Could
>>> >> >>>> > you come up with something without having to have new
>>> >> >> molds-marketed as
>>> >> >>>> a
>>> >> >>>> > "Sport" Rhodes 22?   Lower the interior weight, put a standard
>>> mast
>>> >> >> and
>>> >> >>>> > racing sails on it and a spinaker.  Catalina has a "sport 
>>> >> >>>> > model"
>>> >> >> and it
>>> >> >>>> > does
>>> >> >>>> > pretty well I think.  Just some ideas I have batted around. dc
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:46:52 -0400
>>> >> >>>> > From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
>>> >> >>>> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>> >> >>>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> >> >>>> > Message-ID: <038FA83D95464CCFB609CA722206B2D8 at rhodes>
>>> >> >>>> > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > Rose and I want to thank you all for indulging GB in the use 
>>> >> >>>> > of
>>> >> >> your
>>> >> >>>> forum
>>> >> >>>> > on an issue that is so basic to GB.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > We want to thank those that take issue with our position but
>>> >> >> attempt to
>>> >> >>>> be
>>> >> >>>> > evenhanded.  (If academically interested, we can provide 
>>> >> >>>> > exhibits
>>> >> >> and
>>> >> >>>> > witnesses that prove the accuracy of our facts.)
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > We are empathetic with those who chafe at this sort of thing 
>>> >> >>>> > and
>>> >> >> remain
>>> >> >>>> > silent - in our younger days we probably would have done the
>>> same.
>>> >> >> It
>>> >> >>>> was
>>> >> >>>> > not until 50 that we adopted our tribe's slogan of  "never 
>>> >> >>>> > again"
>>> >> >> and
>>> >> >>>> took
>>> >> >>>> > on anyone who wronged us:  A policeman.  A lawyer.  a station
>>> wagon
>>> >> >>>> full
>>> >> >>>> of
>>> >> >>>> > nuns (just kidding about the station wagon), a giant 
>>> >> >>>> > corporation
>>> to
>>> >> >>>> > docketing at the US Supreme Court.   We prevailed in all these
>>> pro
>>> >> >> se
>>> >> >>>> > actions simply because we do not complain unless the facts and
>>> >> >> logic
>>> >> >>>> are
>>> >> >>>> > solidly on our side - but we digress.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > And, in particular, we want to thank those who understand the
>>> >> >> logical
>>> >> >>>> side
>>> >> >>>> > of our position and offered suggestions.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > Re the issue of the Loyalty/Royalty program:   Its reasoning
>>> seems
>>> >> >> so
>>> >> >>>> > correct that it is hard to comprehend dissent.  Those thinking 
>>> >> >>>> > us
>>> >> >> crazy
>>> >> >>>> for
>>> >> >>>> > such radical thinking have to sit in this chair for just one 
>>> >> >>>> > day.
>>> >> >>>> > Interestingly, dissenters enjoy products from many segments of
>>> >> >> industry
>>> >> >>>> who
>>> >> >>>> > have already worked out such support programs, yet these
>>> dissenters
>>> >> >>>> seem
>>> >> >>>> to
>>> >> >>>> > be drawing their own grandfather clause line as to which
>>> industries
>>> >> >>>> should
>>> >> >>>> > not be entitled to residuals on their efforts.   Those in this
>>> >> >> group
>>> >> >>>> have
>>> >> >>>> > but to request and we will expand on the good sense of this
>>> >> >> program.
>>> >> >>>> It
>>> >> >>>> > has been emotionally gratifying seeing former members of the 
>>> >> >>>> > "You
>>> >> >> must
>>> >> >>>> be
>>> >> >>>> > crazy" society, when, becoming members of the "List" family,
>>> seeing
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >>>> > light and converting.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > Re the issue of the 50 years creating a unique product now 
>>> >> >>>> > having
>>> >> >>>> others
>>> >> >>>> > take bites of its parts for their unilateral gain, if not
>>> resolved,
>>> >> >>>> will
>>> >> >>>> > come home to bite us all.   ( When I walked out of the 
>>> >> >>>> > hallowed
>>> >> >> halls
>>> >> >>>> of
>>> >> >>>> > ole
>>> >> >>>> > PU I vowed not to go into business because I could not stand 
>>> >> >>>> > the
>>> >> >> ethics
>>> >> >>>> I
>>> >> >>>> > saw, and assumed, had to go with that territory.  But it was
>>> >> >>>> pre-ordained;
>>> >> >>>> > I
>>> >> >>>> > ended up spending most of my life a driving capitalist.   And 
>>> >> >>>> > it
>>> >> >> has
>>> >> >>>> been
>>> >> >>>> a
>>> >> >>>> > blast, for me and my partner of 60 years - because we made the
>>> >> >> making
>>> >> >>>> of
>>> >> >>>> > money our secondary goal.   (The effects of that kind of
>>> religious
>>> >> >>>> fervor
>>> >> >>>> > has surprisingly turned out to be rough on our opponents.)
>>> There
>>> >> >> are
>>> >> >>>> ways
>>> >> >>>> > we can go to stop the taking of free bites of the profitable
>>> parts
>>> >> >> side
>>> >> >>>> of
>>> >> >>>> > GB's business::
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > When we sold Venture Sailboats (Macgregor), dealers could buy
>>> sails
>>> >> >>>> > elsewhere and make an additional profit on Roger's creation at
>>> >> >> Roger's
>>> >> >>>> > expense.  Roger, who graduated at the top of his class at
>>> Stamford,
>>> >> >>>> simply
>>> >> >>>> > raised the price of his boat and included sails.  Being the 
>>> >> >>>> > tough
>>> >> >>>> business
>>> >> >>>> > man he is, he did it without notice and dealers had to eat 
>>> >> >>>> > their
>>> >> >> sail
>>> >> >>>> > inventories they bought elsewhere.  We are slow learners but
>>> could
>>> >> >>>> price
>>> >> >>>> > Rhodes sales to include a part an outside seller has latched
>>> onto.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>>> Or,
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > We could simply be unresponsive to boat owners who purchase
>>> parts,
>>> >> >>>> unique
>>> >> >>>> > to
>>> >> >>>> > the Rhodes design, from others in competition with GB or who 
>>> >> >>>> > fail
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >>>> honor
>>> >> >>>> > agreements with GB.   We inherently do not like this 
>>> >> >>>> > retaliatory
>>> >> >> type
>>> >> >>>> of
>>> >> >>>> > solution, but it is a solution.   Or
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > We could simply close shop and that would close the market for
>>> >> >>>> unauthorized
>>> >> >>>> > parts vendors.   This "cutting off ones nose" solution is not 
>>> >> >>>> > our
>>> >> >>>> choice.
>>> >> >>>> >  However, not taking on rogue suppliers, eating away at the 
>>> >> >>>> > life
>>> >> >> cash
>>> >> >>>> flow
>>> >> >>>> > of the company, makes it an inevitable solution.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > In an effort to avoid any of the above solutions, based on the
>>> >> >> thinking
>>> >> >>>> of
>>> >> >>>> > List members in this particular complaint of GB vs. Art C, we
>>> have
>>> >> >> some
>>> >> >>>> > proposals that we will present to the List next week for your
>>> >> >>>> appreciated
>>> >> >>>> > feedback.  The pro bono time we are having to devote to the
>>> >> >> problems
>>> >> >>>> and
>>> >> >>>> > questions of private sale Rhodes is becoming so overwhelming 
>>> >> >>>> > (and
>>> >> >> we
>>> >> >>>> hate
>>> >> >>>> > to
>>> >> >>>> > be mean spirited enough to tell them where to go) that we just
>>> >> >> can't
>>> >> >>>> seem
>>> >> >>>> > to
>>> >> >>>> > manage all of this issue in one sitting.
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> > ss
>>> >> >>>> > __________________________________________________
>>> >> >>>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing 
>>> >> >>>> > list
>>> go
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >>>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >> >>>> > __________________________________________________
>>> >> >>>> >
>>> >> >>>> __________________________________________________
>>> >> >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list 
>>> >> >>>> go
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >> >>>> __________________________________________________
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>> __________________________________________________
>>> >> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list 
>>> >> >>> go
>>> to
>>> >> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >> >>> __________________________________________________
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> --
>>> >> >> View this message in context:
>>> >> >>
>>> >>
>>> http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660
>>> >> >> 048p24697834.html
>>> >> >> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>>> >> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list 
>>> >> >> go
>>> to
>>> >> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>>> >> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list 
>>> >> >> go
>>> to
>>> >> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >--
>>> >> >View this message in context:
>>> >>
>>> http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660048p24700483.html
>>> >> >Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >__________________________________________________
>>> >> >To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go 
>>> >> >to
>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >> >__________________________________________________
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go 
>>> >> to
>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>> >>
>>> >__________________________________________________
>>> >To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >__________________________________________________
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to 
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
> 



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