[Rhodes22-list] Rhodes Promotions

[Michael D. Weisner]

Art,

I think that Stan has spoken.  He wants GBI to exhibit the way it always has 
and all errors, omissions, mistakes, etc. are the responsibility of GBI.  He 
has a system that has not only produced a great product but, believe or not, 
enabled him to sell a few here and there.

At boat shows, the only things that Stan has ever given away (free), to my 
knowledge, are his wisdom and time, both much more valuable than a small 
trinket.  Why try to cheapen the Rhodes 22 with some gimmicky giveaway.

Stanley, in the immortal words of  George Carlin, is "the real deal" and 
hasn't been matched by a glitzy marketer, yet.

Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net> Thursday, July 30, 
2009 12:22 PM
> Deena,
>
> Do you think an inscribed ball point, one worth keeping and using, would 
> make sense?  We just need to 'blue sky' this show...
>
> I stitched a miniature sail bag once, it was made of actual sailcloth and 
> was embroidered.  Really quality you wouldn't pitch in file 13.  Maybe an 
> embossed key chain with a small fiberglass piece (of hull) as a hanger. 
> There must be soms scrap around the GB facility.  " You have a small part 
> of the boat, we can deliver the rest in a few months."  Let's stretch our 
> imagination over Stan (SOS)!
>
> Art
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: captainpy at comcast.net
>>Sent: Jul 29, 2009 4:56 PM
>>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes Promotions
>>
>>
>>
>>Stan!!!!!!!!
>>
>>How about a Rhodes 22 T-shirt That says "Ask me about my Rhodes" )On one 
>>side a picture and on the other GB's web address?
>>
>>
>>
>>Deena AKA Captain Py
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org
>>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 12:00:39 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
>>Subject: Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1931, Issue 1
>>
>>Send Rhodes22-list mailing list submissions to
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>>
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>>
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>>
>>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>than "Re: Contents of Rhodes22-list digest..."
>>
>>
>>Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Stuff that works - pest control solutions (Jim Connolly)
>> 2. Re: Fw: general boat's dilema (Arthur H. Czerwonky)
>> 3. Re: general boat's complaint (continued) (stan)
>> 4. Re: general boat's complaint (continued) (stan)
>> 5. Re: general boat's complaint /in all fairness (Lou Rosenberg)
>> 6. Re: general boat's complaint /in all fairness
>> (Arthur H. Czerwonky)
>> 7. Re: general boat's complaint /in all fairness (Lowe, Rob)
>> 8. Yellowstone Lake, Jackson Lake Sailing (Arthur H. Czerwonky)
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>
>>Message: 1
>>Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:01:17 -0400
>>From: "Jim Connolly" <jbconnolly at comcast.net>
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Stuff that works - pest control solutions
>>To: "'The Rhodes 22 Email List'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Message-ID: <200907290201.n6T21ZTY022293 at raeid23.raenet.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>I had hornets and wasps in the coaming right before launch, so I needed a
>>fast solution.
>>
>>I found a non-toxic wasp killer spray that is based on mint oil ("poison
>>free" from Victor Pest Control). It took a whole can, but seemed to work.
>>The smell repelled or confused returning wasps, and those that were home
>>when I sprayed (at least some of them) died.
>>
>>Jim Connolly
>>s/v Inisheer
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message----- 
>>From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of John Lock
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:29 PM
>>To: Rhodes 22
>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Stuff that works - pest control solutions
>>
>>Last year I had a couple of pest problems that many people responded too
>>with helpful suggestions. Here's what my results were -
>>
>>1) Problem - spider webs in the rigging (especially masthead fly) 
>>Solution -
>>WD40. I had the mast down early this spring to fix several things. Before
>>raising again, I sprayed WD40 liberally on the masthead, Windex, VHF
>>antenna, and diamond stays. So far (5 months
>>later) not a single web! Still get them down lower where I didn't spray, 
>>so
>>we know the spiders are still there. But they don't want to (or can't)
>>start webs on the WD40 treated portion.
>>
>>2) Problem - paper wasps building nests under the cockpit coaming 
>>Solution -
>>clothes drier sheets. Middle of last summer I stapled a bunch of drier
>>sheets into the wood backing up under the coaming on both sides. No wasp
>>nests have appeared in almost a year now. I see some more wasp activity
>>now, so I suspect it's time to renew the sheets. But that's a cheap and
>>effective control.
>>
>>Now if only I could figure out what to do about the ants coming aboard 
>>from
>>shore....
>>
>>Cheers!
>>John Lock
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22
>>Lake Sinclair, GA
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>__________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------ 
>>
>>Message: 2
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:31:43 -0400 (EDT)
>>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fw: general boat's dilema
>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Message-ID:
>> <16092871.1248874303875.JavaMail.root at elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>>John,
>>
>>Welcome aboard the list and your involvement. This fleet is strong for the 
>>mix of its skippers as well an exceptional boat. If you can come to the 
>>show you'll have a rather rare opportunity to meet many of them as we have 
>>a get-together in a nearby restaurant, I can't remember what day that will 
>>be this year - maybe we should take a poll. C'mon down and enjoy! You will 
>>also see one of the most exceptional sailboat displays in the country. Lee 
>>may have a handle on what is cooking locally, or Mary Lou and Fred may 
>>know. We have alot of skippers in the North Chesapeake environs, let's 
>>show the flag. BTW, is there an R22 burgee?
>>
>>Another option we could use in helping GB is to followup on inquiries on 
>>the Rhodes from shows, calls, or curious prospects we may meet as our 
>>marinas. If local owners are informed about such prospects from Stan or 
>>other owners, they could be invited out on a sail or into a conversation 
>>about our boat, maybe about their boat and/or sailing interests. We get 
>>random requests from wannabes, maybe a more proactive initiative on our 
>>part, done tastefully, would develop into prospects for Stan. He can 
>>suggest names, approach, interests selectively to get the ball/tide 
>>rolling. A passive approach will not enhance sales prospects for GB.
>>
>>I share your past interest in the Mariner (#1607) and the O'Day boats 
>>(222). I haven't seen much racing interest in our skippers, but welcome 
>>correction if it is due. Involvement in the racing is alot of fun. Stan 
>>suggested a strictly racing R22 a few years ago, maybe to be revived. Are 
>>you IMF (probably) or Conventional? What size Genny? Have you raced out of 
>>Brant Beach, or is it mostly a cruising venue? Which motor have you 
>>preferred?
>>
>>We welcome your involvement, John, and look forward to your reply.
>>
>>Art
>>s/v Mary Jane
>>Hartwell and St Pete
>>
>>
>>--Original Message----- 
>>>From: John <johnrowland at optonline.net>
>>>Sent: Jul 28, 2009 9:50 PM
>>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Fw: general boat's dilema
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>From: "John" <johnrowland at optonline.net>
>>>To: <rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org>
>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 9:01 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's dilema
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have submitted one or two messages to the list, but would like to get
>>>>more involved. I purchased a 1989 Rhodes22 about 1 year ago. I have 
>>>>raced
>>>>Mariners years ago, owned a few O'Days, and never found a boat that I 
>>>>enjoy
>>>>more than this one. Heaven forbid General Boats has problems. There is 
>>>>no
>>>>owner loyalty, or construction quality (or--even more 
>>>>important--customer
>>>>service) that compares with this company. While I probably cannot attend
>>>>the Annapolis Show, I need to know what I (and other loyal owners) can 
>>>>do
>>>>to keep this company strong.
>>>>
>>>> I have been amazed at the discussions on this list (with the exception 
>>>> of
>>>> the political issues regarding the last election). My goodness, where
>>>> else can I learn about how to sail more effectively and fix whatever
>>>> problems I have on the boat. I do not call a customer service number 
>>>> that
>>>> keeps me on hold for hours--I talk to the owner of the company!!
>>>>
>>>> I will not get involved in discussions regarding royalties, but do 
>>>> think
>>>> that each of us owes Stan some support in keeping this boat alive.
>>>>
>>>> I am actually in a slip next to a Hunter 40, and I am happier with this
>>>> boat.
>>>>
>>>> I read a lot of e-mails from individuals who offer suggestions about 
>>>> other
>>>> members issues and questions. What better support canone get than this?
>>>>
>>>> I keep the boat at a slip at the Brant Beach Yacht Club in Brant Beach,
>>>> New Jersey and look forward to meeting other owners in the area.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Rick" <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:24 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's dilema
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> $1.97
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Arthur H. Czerwonky <
>>>>> czerwonky at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good idea, buddy! Somehow to add a unique personal touch. I would 
>>>>>> add,
>>>>>> however, that Mary Lou really does not need to dance on table tops at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Annapolis show. Fred, Pleassse!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with the blazers, but, as we are in shoestring mode, what 
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> Hanes T-shirt, and of course, hospitality hot dogs with lots of 
>>>>>> mustard
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> relish. Seriously, I embroidered some nice looking T-shirts for the 
>>>>>> '07
>>>>>> show, different color each day, some were 'Name, and rhodes22.com', 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> some were 'name, boomroom, rhodes22.com', each comma'd section above 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> other. They were noticed by our visitors, never a comment or 
>>>>>> compliment
>>>>>> otherwise. You might have to get used to it... rhoadies are tough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's gel some more ideas for Stan to use. At least it engages the
>>>>>> imagination of the smart cookies in our magnificent Rhodes fleet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No commissions or royalty this time either, guys. What do you charge,
>>>>>> Rick?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Art
>>>>>> s/v Mary Jane
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- 
>>>>>> >From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >Sent: Jul 28, 2009 2:00 PM
>>>>>> >To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's dilema
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >Art,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >Using owners at shows sounds like a good idea. Carver has success 
>>>>>> >with
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> >at the Cleveland show, dressing everyone up the same way in blue
>>>>>> >blazers.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >I doubt any mass media advertising would have payback. Since all the
>>>>>> major
>>>>>> >sailing magazines have been pushing for so long the Catalina wave 
>>>>>> >that
>>>>>> >you
>>>>>> >start at 22 feet and buy up from there, a GBI ad would be swamped.
>>>>>> >Maybe
>>>>>> >direct mail to long-time owners on state and Coast Guard sailboat
>>>>>> >registration lists, pushing the R22 as a quality downsize option?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >Rick
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Arthur H. Czerwonky <
>>>>>> >czerwonky at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> John, Rob,
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> You may recall that Stan proposed a stripped down version, call it 
>>>>>> >> a
>>>>>> racing
>>>>>> >> model, on the list a few years ago, and although I expressed 
>>>>>> >> interest
>>>>>> >> in
>>>>>> >> this new boat option to him, maybe others too, no further 
>>>>>> >> information
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> >> provided to my knowledge. Back at that time Stan expressed his
>>>>>> >> ability
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >> produce, and now maybe he will further reconsider and tell us more
>>>>>> >> about
>>>>>> >> what he had in mind. I still am interested, speaking for myself as 
>>>>>> >> a
>>>>>> >> potential buyer. I will watch for any response. Did anyone get
>>>>>> detailed
>>>>>> >> information on this boat?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I have suggested the value of baseline ad exposure. If nothing 
>>>>>> >> else,
>>>>>> >> targeted reinforcement to the boat show displays that are so
>>>>>> >> important.
>>>>>> >> Maybe followup visits by experienced skippers. I have been told by
>>>>>> >> one
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> >> our newer skippers that my 'hot dog hospitality' aboard Mary Jane 
>>>>>> >> at
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> '07
>>>>>> >> show tipped the sale toward his boat purchase with him and his 
>>>>>> >> wife.
>>>>>> BTW,
>>>>>> >> no commission provided or requested. The presence of skippers at 
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> show
>>>>>> >> is valuable - a third party evaluation of their own boat, and with
>>>>>> >> 'no
>>>>>> axe
>>>>>> >> to grind'. Consider it for yourself in support of Stan, as I did
>>>>>> >> twice.
>>>>>> >> You would have one very positive impression of how GB and a huge
>>>>>> >> number
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> >> other boat makers reach their customers. Our skippers who are so
>>>>>> willing to
>>>>>> >> give demos, whether at shows or not, are such valuable ambassadors
>>>>>> >> for
>>>>>> GB.
>>>>>> >> Having done it a number of times, it is really fun as well as 
>>>>>> >> being
>>>>>> >> productive. Try it, you'll like it! Let's be specific - Can some 
>>>>>> >> of
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> >> skipper demos at Annapoli!
>>>>>> >> s or St Pete or elsewhere?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Cutting to the chase, who has some real connections to options and
>>>>>> selling
>>>>>> >> /advertising connections that could help get Stan and GB out of 
>>>>>> >> this
>>>>>> 'black
>>>>>> >> hole' that the company appears to be in? It could be just a few
>>>>>> positive
>>>>>> >> levers to pull that would enable better results, even in our 
>>>>>> >> current
>>>>>> puuuny
>>>>>> >> economy. Who is willing to pen letters of endorsement to
>>>>>> prospects/suspects
>>>>>> >> that could tip the scales, one by one. Time to get the horses out
>>>>>> >> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> barn, guys.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Like Mark Twain or someone else once said, let's get the P in our
>>>>>> >> Pot!
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Respectfully,
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Art
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> -----Original Message----- 
>>>>>> >> >From: John Shulick <jsbudda at verizon.net>
>>>>>> >> >Sent: Jul 28, 2009 11:02 AM
>>>>>> >> >To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>> >> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >Rob,
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >Yep that pretty much covers it. Now what would the price point be
>>>>>> >> >for
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> >> a
>>>>>> >> >boat? I have the origional literature that came with my 71 and 
>>>>>> >> >you
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> >> >see that show package special price!!!
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >John S.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >Rob Lowe wrote:
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> Drop the IMF, ditch the head, the water tank, the fancy motor
>>>>>> >> >> lift,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> >> >> re-model the interior? Now you have my 1976 boat! I do have
>>>>>> >> >> battery
>>>>>> >> >> though. - rob
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> -----Original Message----- 
>>>>>> >> >> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>>>> >> >> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of John
>>>>>> Shulick
>>>>>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:52 AM
>>>>>> >> >> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint 
>>>>>> >> >> (continued)
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> Rick,
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> I see your point clearly on the subject but I also see Davids 
>>>>>> >> >> idea
>>>>>> >> >> of
>>>>>> >> >> options to increase sales. How about dropping the IMF, ditch 
>>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>>> head,
>>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>>> >> >> on board water tank, the batteries, the fancy motor lift, 
>>>>>> >> >> re-model
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> >> interior and selling it as a "sport model" My wife and I live 
>>>>>> >> >> on
>>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>>> >> >> boat
>>>>>> >> >> almost every weekend and find a porta potty and crank lights
>>>>>> sufficient.
>>>>>> >> >> Being a camper before a sailor I have found the R22 to be a 
>>>>>> >> >> first
>>>>>> class
>>>>>> >> >> floating campground without the pain of hiking in. I also have 
>>>>>> >> >> had
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> >> perverse pleasure one weekend of sailing rings around a 
>>>>>> >> >> macgregor
>>>>>> >> >> 26
>>>>>> >> >> using
>>>>>> >> >> it like a no wake buoy as the kids pleaded at their father to 
>>>>>> >> >> make
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> >> mac
>>>>>> >> >> go faster. Racer/Cruiser is more fun than Cruiser/Racer. Even 
>>>>>> >> >> if
>>>>>> you're
>>>>>> >> >> not
>>>>>> >> >> racing its fun to be faster.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> Respectfully submitted,
>>>>>> >> >> John Shulick
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> Rick-139 wrote:
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>> David,
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>> I hate to be the wet blanket again. But racing sailboats is a
>>>>>> >> >>> whole
>>>>>> >> >>> 'nother
>>>>>> >> >>> market. The key to convincing a customer to buy a sailboat for
>>>>>> racing
>>>>>> >> >> is
>>>>>> >> >>> to
>>>>>> >> >>> convince him or her that they will have lots of other 
>>>>>> >> >>> sailboats
>>>>>> >> >>> to
>>>>>> >> >> race
>>>>>> >> >>> against.
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>> In the one design game, it involves high volume production and 
>>>>>> >> >>> a
>>>>>> >> >>> distribution system that can execute geographically 
>>>>>> >> >>> concentrated
>>>>>> sales
>>>>>> >> >> and
>>>>>> >> >>> support. J Boats has been successful doing that in the Great
>>>>>> >> >>> Lakes
>>>>>> >> >> with
>>>>>> >> >>> the
>>>>>> >> >>> J 22 and other longer models. Plus, J Boats has a respectable
>>>>>> history
>>>>>> >> >> of
>>>>>> >> >>> maintaining one design integrity.
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>> Of course, there's always PHRF racing. But how many 20 - 25 
>>>>>> >> >>> foot
>>>>>> >> >> cruising
>>>>>> >> >>> sailboat owners are left with an interest in racing?
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>> Unlike 30 years ago, most people today who buy cruising or day
>>>>>> sailing
>>>>>> >> >>> boats
>>>>>> >> >>> in the low 20's length are first timers. From there, they 
>>>>>> >> >>> either
>>>>>> drop
>>>>>> >> >> out
>>>>>> >> >>> or they move to larger boats more popular for cruising, racing 
>>>>>> >> >>> or
>>>>>> >> >> both.
>>>>>> >> >>> Catalina and Hunter have turned the market into that by making
>>>>>> >> >>> cheap
>>>>>> >> >>> starter
>>>>>> >> >>> boats people can easily abandon for yachts. Stan's main 
>>>>>> >> >>> problem
>>>>>> >> >>> is
>>>>>> he
>>>>>> >> >> now
>>>>>> >> >>> has a product that goes against the prevailing mindset that 
>>>>>> >> >>> has
>>>>>> >> >> evolved
>>>>>> >> >>> for
>>>>>> >> >>> his market.
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>> Did you read the article "The Little Boat that Could" in 
>>>>>> >> >>> August
>>>>>> issue
>>>>>> >> >> of
>>>>>> >> >>> Sailing? The title itself is a reflection of that mindset. And
>>>>>> >> >> despite
>>>>>> >> >>> all
>>>>>> >> >>> kinds of compliments about the R22, the piece ends with: "More
>>>>>> >> >> important,
>>>>>> >> >>> where does one get a new tiller for a Rhodes 22?" That's some
>>>>>> insult
>>>>>> >> >> to a
>>>>>> >> >>> builder who has admirably supported his product for decades. 
>>>>>> >> >>> But
>>>>>> >> >> again,
>>>>>> >> >>> that's part of the same mindset.
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>> Rick
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:04 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> Rick:
>>>>>> >> >>>> What I am saying is that this boat is unique and I can't go 
>>>>>> >> >>>> down
>>>>>> >> >>>> to
>>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>>> >> >>>> local boatyard and get some of the major parts that I might
>>>>>> >> >>>> need.
>>>>>> >> >> Also,
>>>>>> >> >>>> I
>>>>>> >> >>>> can't send an email or make a phone call to the guy who built
>>>>>> >> >>>> the
>>>>>> >> >> boat at
>>>>>> >> >>>> most places and expect a response. That's probably worth
>>>>>> >> >>>> something
>>>>>> >> >> to
>>>>>> >> >>>> keep
>>>>>> >> >>>> the operation rolling as long as Stan does his part. I don't
>>>>>> >> >>>> think
>>>>>> >> >> you
>>>>>> >> >>>> ought to pay royalty/loyalty if you don't get anything for 
>>>>>> >> >>>> it.
>>>>>> >> >>>> If
>>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>>> >> >>>> group
>>>>>> >> >>>> feels we are getting something worth paying for, then I'm 
>>>>>> >> >>>> just
>>>>>> >> >> suggesting
>>>>>> >> >>>> a
>>>>>> >> >>>> small stipend annually to Stan which if everyone participates
>>>>>> >> >>>> might
>>>>>> >> >> be a
>>>>>> >> >>>> better solution then a percentage up front facing new owners 
>>>>>> >> >>>> for
>>>>>> >> >>>> loyalty/royalty. The 5% on the seller side will figure into 
>>>>>> >> >>>> the
>>>>>> >> >> price
>>>>>> >> >>>> and
>>>>>> >> >>>> it gets the new owner out of any obligation to pay a
>>>>>> royalty/loyalty
>>>>>> >> >> up
>>>>>> >> >>>> front for two years. Then, continued association membership
>>>>>> >> >>>> will
>>>>>> >> >> require
>>>>>> >> >>>> the annual dues.
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> Imagine if you bought a Ford or Chevy used and then were 
>>>>>> >> >>>> asked
>>>>>> >> >>>> to
>>>>>> >> >> send a
>>>>>> >> >>>> 5%
>>>>>> >> >>>> fee to the factory. Nobody would... but this is not a Ford or
>>>>>> Chevy.
>>>>>> >> >> I
>>>>>> >> >>>> figure some type of ongoing support is probably reasonable as
>>>>>> >> >>>> long
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> >> >> we
>>>>>> >> >>>> get
>>>>>> >> >>>> good owner support and parts availability. For example, if
>>>>>> >> >>>> someone
>>>>>> >> >> comes
>>>>>> >> >>>> along and hits my rudder in the slip and I need a new one, 
>>>>>> >> >>>> there
>>>>>> >> >> ought to
>>>>>> >> >>>> be
>>>>>> >> >>>> a spare waiting at the factory to ship out. If someone blows 
>>>>>> >> >>>> a
>>>>>> sail
>>>>>> >> >>>> out,
>>>>>> >> >>>> there should be one ready to ship and the right color too. I
>>>>>> >> >>>> don't
>>>>>> >> >> know
>>>>>> >> >>>> if
>>>>>> >> >>>> this is the case at GBI because spare parts mean overhead and 
>>>>>> >> >>>> I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> >> >>>> know
>>>>>> >> >>>> how much overhead Stan is willing to carry. Maybe parts for
>>>>>> >> >> non-members
>>>>>> >> >>>> ought to carry a premium that members don't have to pay-so
>>>>>> >> >>>> another
>>>>>> >> >> added
>>>>>> >> >>>> incentive to be one of the family.
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> I hear what you are saying about the market. Long term, 
>>>>>> >> >>>> owners
>>>>>> >> >>>> are
>>>>>> >> >> not
>>>>>> >> >>>> going to be the ones to keep GBI afloat. You have got to get
>>>>>> >> >>>> new
>>>>>> >> >>>> customers
>>>>>> >> >>>> through the door. There have been a lot of good suggestions
>>>>>> >> >>>> given
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> >> >> a
>>>>>> >> >>>> lot
>>>>>> >> >>>> of experienced people on the list. My experiences with family
>>>>>> >> >>>> run
>>>>>> >> >>>> businesses are that we are very happy to take your money but 
>>>>>> >> >>>> you
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> >> >> keep
>>>>>> >> >>>> your advice to yourself. However, Stan seems open to some
>>>>>> >> >> suggestions.
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> Stan has an excellent product, more people need to know about 
>>>>>> >> >>>> it
>>>>>> >> >>>> as
>>>>>> >> >>>> someone
>>>>>> >> >>>> has mentioned. A new boat is becoming cost prohibitive for
>>>>>> >> >>>> most,
>>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>>> >> >>>> recycling is a good second market but I think you need a 
>>>>>> >> >>>> "less
>>>>>> >> >> frills"
>>>>>> >> >>>> model
>>>>>> >> >>>> to get younger couples through the doors. You would have to 
>>>>>> >> >>>> be
>>>>>> able
>>>>>> >> >> to
>>>>>> >> >>>> build it with the same quality, using the same molds at an
>>>>>> attractive
>>>>>> >> >>>> price
>>>>>> >> >>>> point and I don't know if that is possible. I thought maybe a
>>>>>> >> >> stripped
>>>>>> >> >>>> down
>>>>>> >> >>>> racing version might be a solution. Racers don't need much 
>>>>>> >> >>>> down
>>>>>> >> >> below
>>>>>> >> >>>> and
>>>>>> >> >>>> will pay for quality above. The Rhodes is faster then a
>>>>>> >> >>>> Catalina
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >> >>>> being
>>>>>> >> >>>> with and that would appeal to a lot of people.
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>> >> >>>> David
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:28:36 -0400
>>>>>> >> >>>> From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint
>>>>>> >> >>>> (continued)
>>>>>> >> >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> >> >>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> <52e9a140907261428v6feebf53l4e923711b987ec30 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> David,
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> When I was considering buying my R22, the PO said, "I can 
>>>>>> >> >>>> give
>>>>>> >> >>>> you
>>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>>> >> >>>> home
>>>>>> >> >>>> phone number of the guy who makes the boat and he will talk 
>>>>>> >> >>>> to
>>>>>> >> >>>> you
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> >> >> any
>>>>>> >> >>>> time." Of course, that tilted me to buy his boat and
>>>>>> >> >>>> subsequently
>>>>>> >> >> buy
>>>>>> >> >>>> many
>>>>>> >> >>>> things from Stan.
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> Are you suggesting Stan discontinues this attractive offering 
>>>>>> >> >>>> in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> >>>> shrunken marketplace for pocket cruiser sailboats? I think it
>>>>>> >> >>>> will
>>>>>> >> >> just
>>>>>> >> >>>> turn customers toward high volume boats where technical
>>>>>> >> >>>> information
>>>>>> >> >> and
>>>>>> >> >>>> spare parts are readily available.
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> Rick
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 4:49 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Stan:
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Thank you for your insight into the business. I dare say 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > that
>>>>>> most
>>>>>> >> >>>> > sailboat
>>>>>> >> >>>> > owners don't get the inside track on happenings at the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > factory;
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > factory is even still in business that is.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > I want to comment on the loyalty/royalty program concerning
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> >> Rhodes.
>>>>>> >> >>>> My
>>>>>> >> >>>> > experience in boat ownership over the years is that a used
>>>>>> >> >>>> > boat
>>>>>> >> >>>> purchaser
>>>>>> >> >>>> > always spends the maximum funds set aside for the purchase.
>>>>>> Either
>>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > purchase price and the taxes consume the entire amount or 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > new
>>>>>> >> >> owner
>>>>>> >> >>>> > takes any funds left and applies them to things the boat
>>>>>> >> >>>> > needs.
>>>>>> >> >> And we
>>>>>> >> >>>> all
>>>>>> >> >>>> > know that used boats need something all the time.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > It is a bit of a sticky wicket let's say, to request from a
>>>>>> >> >>>> > new
>>>>>> >> >> owner 5
>>>>>> >> >>>> %
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the purchase price be paid to GBI when they have probably
>>>>>> >> >>>> > spent
>>>>>> >> >> more
>>>>>> >> >>>> money
>>>>>> >> >>>> > then they intended to begin with. The Rhodes 22 is the top 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> >>>> scale
>>>>>> >> >>>> in
>>>>>> >> >>>> > 22' boats and used prices are not cheap. We see it all the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > time
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > list... Folks are interested in the Rhodes but they are
>>>>>> >> >>>> > trying
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >> >>>> purchase
>>>>>> >> >>>> > it on a "Catalina" budget; so they "lurk" on the list 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > either
>>>>>> saving
>>>>>> >> >> up
>>>>>> >> >>>> > their
>>>>>> >> >>>> > cash or hoping to see a cheap boat come up for sale whereby
>>>>>> >> >>>> > they
>>>>>> >> >>>> promptly
>>>>>> >> >>>> > go
>>>>>> >> >>>> > off-list and complete the transaction.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > You will remember in my case, that I sent GBI a check for $
>>>>>> 200.00
>>>>>> >> >> to
>>>>>> >> >>>> cover
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the promotional materials you sent me-but that was not 5% 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> >> price
>>>>>> >> >>>> I
>>>>>> >> >>>> > paid. In the meantime, I have enjoyed the technical support
>>>>>> >> >>>> > that
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> >> >>>> have
>>>>>> >> >>>> > received as a member of the list from the owners and from
>>>>>> yourself.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >>>> That
>>>>>> >> >>>> > is
>>>>>> >> >>>> > worth something, even though I didn't realize it in the
>>>>>> beginning.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >>>> This
>>>>>> >> >>>> > boat and this list are pretty unique to the boating world.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > I propose and this will make some people on this list 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > unhappy,
>>>>>> >> >>>> > in
>>>>>> >> >> fact,
>>>>>> >> >>>> > very
>>>>>> >> >>>> > unhappy.... An Owner's association with an annual fee. For
>>>>>> >> >>>> > that
>>>>>> >> >> annual
>>>>>> >> >>>> > fee,
>>>>>> >> >>>> > you have got to provide something however. Which is another
>>>>>> >> >> problem
>>>>>> >> >>>> with
>>>>>> >> >>>> a
>>>>>> >> >>>> > royalty fee upfront; people always need to feel that they 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > are
>>>>>> >> >> getting
>>>>>> >> >>>> > something for their money. In this case, for the annual
>>>>>> >> >> association
>>>>>> >> >>>> fee:
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Admission to the list
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Technical support either from members or the factory
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Availability and a price list of parts, sails, etc. that is
>>>>>> >> >>>> > kept
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> >> >> to
>>>>>> >> >>>> date
>>>>>> >> >>>> > so I can purchase it from you if I need something.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Except for the parts and prices, this is pretty much what 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > we
>>>>>> >> >>>> > are
>>>>>> >> >> doing
>>>>>> >> >>>> > already. Maybe you could come up with some member specials 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > on
>>>>>> >> >> pricing
>>>>>> >> >>>> from
>>>>>> >> >>>> > time to time for sails or parts or write an occasional 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > article
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> >> >>>> only
>>>>>> >> >>>> > members would get. I don't want to burden you with a bunch 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of
>>>>>> >> >> extra
>>>>>> >> >>>> work,
>>>>>> >> >>>> > but there needs to be something unique about membership. In
>>>>>> >> >>>> > this
>>>>>> >> >> way,
>>>>>> >> >>>> the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > new owner would feel they are getting something and it 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > would
>>>>>> >> >> generate
>>>>>> >> >>>> > revenue for you over the longer term. As part of the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > membership,
>>>>>> >> >> if we
>>>>>> >> >>>> > agree to give you 5% of the selling price when we sell, 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > then I
>>>>>> >> >> don't
>>>>>> >> >>>> have
>>>>>> >> >>>> a
>>>>>> >> >>>> > problem with it; especially if the list helps my estate 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > sell
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> >> boat.
>>>>>> >> >>>> > I'll
>>>>>> >> >>>> > even stipulate it in my will. I figure if I owe a "loyalty
>>>>>> >> >>>> > fee",
>>>>>> >> >> it is
>>>>>> >> >>>> > probably to the list members who have taken their time and
>>>>>> >> >>>> > been
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> >> >>>> helpful
>>>>>> >> >>>> > over the years. If paying you a "royalty" fee helps keep 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > GBI
>>>>>> >> >>>> > in
>>>>>> >> >>>> business
>>>>>> >> >>>> > then that helps them and you. As a seller, if I pay 5% then
>>>>>> >> >>>> > it
>>>>>> >> >> gets my
>>>>>> >> >>>> > buyer on the list free for two years. Then he/she can do 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> >>>> responsible
>>>>>> >> >>>> > thing and start paying their own royalty/loyalty dues.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > The other situation which started the discussion in the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > beginning
>>>>>> >> >> has
>>>>>> >> >>>> to
>>>>>> >> >>>> do
>>>>>> >> >>>> > with after-market products or other parts unique to the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Rhodes.
>>>>>> If
>>>>>> >> >> a
>>>>>> >> >>>> > member
>>>>>> >> >>>> > has an after-market item to sell to the list which is 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > unique
>>>>>> >> >>>> > to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> >>>> Rhodes
>>>>>> >> >>>> > and/or would normally be available from GBI for sale, then
>>>>>> >> >>>> > he/she
>>>>>> >> >> goes
>>>>>> >> >>>> > through you. They can advertise it and discuss it; but I 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > buy
>>>>>> >> >>>> > it
>>>>>> >> >> from
>>>>>> >> >>>> you
>>>>>> >> >>>> > after you have added your mark up or it cannot be 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > advertised
>>>>>> >> >>>> > on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > member's
>>>>>> >> >>>> > list by another member or by a third party. Simple as that.
>>>>>> They
>>>>>> >> >> are
>>>>>> >> >>>> a
>>>>>> >> >>>> > supplier of General Boats and you are the distributor to 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > me.
>>>>>> >> >>>> Obviously,
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > list membership information is kept proprietary to prevent
>>>>>> >> >>>> > direct
>>>>>> >> >>>> marketing
>>>>>> >> >>>> > by a third party. If a member tries to go behind your 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > back...
>>>>>> >> >>>> > we
>>>>>> >> >> can
>>>>>> >> >>>> take
>>>>>> >> >>>> > care of that. If something comes up for sale on the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > open-market
>>>>>> >> >> that
>>>>>> >> >>>> is
>>>>>> >> >>>> > unique to the Rhodes 22 and there are legal issues, then 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > that
>>>>>> >> >>>> > is
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> >> >>>> > discussion for lawyers and not for this forum.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Right now MJM is administering the list. I think he or
>>>>>> >> >>>> > whomever
>>>>>> >> >> takes
>>>>>> >> >>>> on
>>>>>> >> >>>> > those duties gets their membership free.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > I hope you will take these suggestions under advisement and 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > if
>>>>>> >> >>>> > it
>>>>>> >> >> is of
>>>>>> >> >>>> > interest, let us know what you think the annual membership 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > fee
>>>>>> >> >> should
>>>>>> >> >>>> be.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > For everyone else, let the flaming begin.... But just keep 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > in
>>>>>> mind
>>>>>> >> >>>> what
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > purpose is here. Trying to come up with something palatable
>>>>>> >> >>>> > to
>>>>>> >> >> help
>>>>>> >> >>>> GBI
>>>>>> >> >>>> > now
>>>>>> >> >>>> > and us in the long run.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > David
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > PS:
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Other thoughts: The Rhodes 22 website is "technically" one 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> >> best
>>>>>> >> >>>> I
>>>>>> >> >>>> > have ever seen as far as the boat information goes. 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > However,
>>>>>> >> >>>> > it
>>>>>> >> >> needs
>>>>>> >> >>>> some
>>>>>> >> >>>> > polish to be a more effective marketing tool. More timely
>>>>>> >> >> information
>>>>>> >> >>>> and
>>>>>> >> >>>> > more emphasis on the recycle program and availability of 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > used
>>>>>> boats
>>>>>> >> >>>> comes
>>>>>> >> >>>> > to
>>>>>> >> >>>> > mind since new boat sales are down. Also, have you ever
>>>>>> considered
>>>>>> >> >> a
>>>>>> >> >>>> new
>>>>>> >> >>>> > "entry level" boat without all the bells and whistles which
>>>>>> >> >> someone
>>>>>> >> >>>> could
>>>>>> >> >>>> > purchase at a bit lower price? You've talked about a racer
>>>>>> before.
>>>>>> >> >>>> Could
>>>>>> >> >>>> > you come up with something without having to have new
>>>>>> >> >> molds-marketed as
>>>>>> >> >>>> a
>>>>>> >> >>>> > "Sport" Rhodes 22? Lower the interior weight, put a 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > standard
>>>>>> mast
>>>>>> >> >> and
>>>>>> >> >>>> > racing sails on it and a spinaker. Catalina has a "sport
>>>>>> >> >>>> > model"
>>>>>> >> >> and it
>>>>>> >> >>>> > does
>>>>>> >> >>>> > pretty well I think. Just some ideas I have batted around. 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > dc
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:46:52 -0400
>>>>>> >> >>>> > From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > (continued)
>>>>>> >> >>>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Message-ID: <038FA83D95464CCFB609CA722206B2D8 at rhodes>
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Rose and I want to thank you all for indulging GB in the 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > use
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of
>>>>>> >> >> your
>>>>>> >> >>>> forum
>>>>>> >> >>>> > on an issue that is so basic to GB.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > We want to thank those that take issue with our position 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > but
>>>>>> >> >> attempt to
>>>>>> >> >>>> be
>>>>>> >> >>>> > evenhanded. (If academically interested, we can provide
>>>>>> >> >>>> > exhibits
>>>>>> >> >> and
>>>>>> >> >>>> > witnesses that prove the accuracy of our facts.)
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > We are empathetic with those who chafe at this sort of 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > thing
>>>>>> >> >>>> > and
>>>>>> >> >> remain
>>>>>> >> >>>> > silent - in our younger days we probably would have done 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>>>> same.
>>>>>> >> >> It
>>>>>> >> >>>> was
>>>>>> >> >>>> > not until 50 that we adopted our tribe's slogan of "never
>>>>>> >> >>>> > again"
>>>>>> >> >> and
>>>>>> >> >>>> took
>>>>>> >> >>>> > on anyone who wronged us: A policeman. A lawyer. a station
>>>>>> wagon
>>>>>> >> >>>> full
>>>>>> >> >>>> of
>>>>>> >> >>>> > nuns (just kidding about the station wagon), a giant
>>>>>> >> >>>> > corporation
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >> >>>> > docketing at the US Supreme Court. We prevailed in all 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > these
>>>>>> pro
>>>>>> >> >> se
>>>>>> >> >>>> > actions simply because we do not complain unless the facts 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > and
>>>>>> >> >> logic
>>>>>> >> >>>> are
>>>>>> >> >>>> > solidly on our side - but we digress.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > And, in particular, we want to thank those who understand 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> >> logical
>>>>>> >> >>>> side
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of our position and offered suggestions.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Re the issue of the Loyalty/Royalty program: Its reasoning
>>>>>> seems
>>>>>> >> >> so
>>>>>> >> >>>> > correct that it is hard to comprehend dissent. Those 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > thinking
>>>>>> >> >>>> > us
>>>>>> >> >> crazy
>>>>>> >> >>>> for
>>>>>> >> >>>> > such radical thinking have to sit in this chair for just 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > one
>>>>>> >> >>>> > day.
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Interestingly, dissenters enjoy products from many segments 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of
>>>>>> >> >> industry
>>>>>> >> >>>> who
>>>>>> >> >>>> > have already worked out such support programs, yet these
>>>>>> dissenters
>>>>>> >> >>>> seem
>>>>>> >> >>>> to
>>>>>> >> >>>> > be drawing their own grandfather clause line as to which
>>>>>> industries
>>>>>> >> >>>> should
>>>>>> >> >>>> > not be entitled to residuals on their efforts. Those in 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > this
>>>>>> >> >> group
>>>>>> >> >>>> have
>>>>>> >> >>>> > but to request and we will expand on the good sense of this
>>>>>> >> >> program.
>>>>>> >> >>>> It
>>>>>> >> >>>> > has been emotionally gratifying seeing former members of 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > "You
>>>>>> >> >> must
>>>>>> >> >>>> be
>>>>>> >> >>>> > crazy" society, when, becoming members of the "List" 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > family,
>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > light and converting.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Re the issue of the 50 years creating a unique product now
>>>>>> >> >>>> > having
>>>>>> >> >>>> others
>>>>>> >> >>>> > take bites of its parts for their unilateral gain, if not
>>>>>> resolved,
>>>>>> >> >>>> will
>>>>>> >> >>>> > come home to bite us all. ( When I walked out of the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > hallowed
>>>>>> >> >> halls
>>>>>> >> >>>> of
>>>>>> >> >>>> > ole
>>>>>> >> >>>> > PU I vowed not to go into business because I could not 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > stand
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> >> ethics
>>>>>> >> >>>> I
>>>>>> >> >>>> > saw, and assumed, had to go with that territory. But it was
>>>>>> >> >>>> pre-ordained;
>>>>>> >> >>>> > I
>>>>>> >> >>>> > ended up spending most of my life a driving capitalist. And
>>>>>> >> >>>> > it
>>>>>> >> >> has
>>>>>> >> >>>> been
>>>>>> >> >>>> a
>>>>>> >> >>>> > blast, for me and my partner of 60 years - because we made 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> >> making
>>>>>> >> >>>> of
>>>>>> >> >>>> > money our secondary goal. (The effects of that kind of
>>>>>> religious
>>>>>> >> >>>> fervor
>>>>>> >> >>>> > has surprisingly turned out to be rough on our opponents.)
>>>>>> There
>>>>>> >> >> are
>>>>>> >> >>>> ways
>>>>>> >> >>>> > we can go to stop the taking of free bites of the 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > profitable
>>>>>> parts
>>>>>> >> >> side
>>>>>> >> >>>> of
>>>>>> >> >>>> > GB's business::
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > When we sold Venture Sailboats (Macgregor), dealers could 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > buy
>>>>>> sails
>>>>>> >> >>>> > elsewhere and make an additional profit on Roger's creation 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > at
>>>>>> >> >> Roger's
>>>>>> >> >>>> > expense. Roger, who graduated at the top of his class at
>>>>>> Stamford,
>>>>>> >> >>>> simply
>>>>>> >> >>>> > raised the price of his boat and included sails. Being the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > tough
>>>>>> >> >>>> business
>>>>>> >> >>>> > man he is, he did it without notice and dealers had to eat
>>>>>> >> >>>> > their
>>>>>> >> >> sail
>>>>>> >> >>>> > inventories they bought elsewhere. We are slow learners but
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> >> >>>> price
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Rhodes sales to include a part an outside seller has 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > latched
>>>>>> onto.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >>>> Or,
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > We could simply be unresponsive to boat owners who purchase
>>>>>> parts,
>>>>>> >> >>>> unique
>>>>>> >> >>>> > to
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the Rhodes design, from others in competition with GB or 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > who
>>>>>> >> >>>> > fail
>>>>>> >> >> to
>>>>>> >> >>>> honor
>>>>>> >> >>>> > agreements with GB. We inherently do not like this
>>>>>> >> >>>> > retaliatory
>>>>>> >> >> type
>>>>>> >> >>>> of
>>>>>> >> >>>> > solution, but it is a solution. Or
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > We could simply close shop and that would close the market 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > for
>>>>>> >> >>>> unauthorized
>>>>>> >> >>>> > parts vendors. This "cutting off ones nose" solution is not
>>>>>> >> >>>> > our
>>>>>> >> >>>> choice.
>>>>>> >> >>>> > However, not taking on rogue suppliers, eating away at the
>>>>>> >> >>>> > life
>>>>>> >> >> cash
>>>>>> >> >>>> flow
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of the company, makes it an inevitable solution.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > In an effort to avoid any of the above solutions, based on 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> >> thinking
>>>>>> >> >>>> of
>>>>>> >> >>>> > List members in this particular complaint of GB vs. Art C, 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > we
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> >> >> some
>>>>>> >> >>>> > proposals that we will present to the List next week for 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > your
>>>>>> >> >>>> appreciated
>>>>>> >> >>>> > feedback. The pro bono time we are having to devote to the
>>>>>> >> >> problems
>>>>>> >> >>>> and
>>>>>> >> >>>> > questions of private sale Rhodes is becoming so 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > overwhelming
>>>>>> >> >>>> > (and
>>>>>> >> >> we
>>>>>> >> >>>> hate
>>>>>> >> >>>> > to
>>>>>> >> >>>> > be mean spirited enough to tell them where to go) that we 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > just
>>>>>> >> >> can't
>>>>>> >> >>>> seem
>>>>>> >> >>>> > to
>>>>>> >> >>>> > manage all of this issue in one sitting.
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> > ss
>>>>>> >> >>>> > __________________________________________________
>>>>>> >> >>>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>> >> >>>> > list
>>>>>> go
>>>>>> >> >> to
>>>>>> >> >>>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> >> >>>> > __________________________________________________
>>>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> >> >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing 
>>>>>> >> >>>> list
>>>>>> >> >>>> go
>>>>>> >> >> to
>>>>>> >> >>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> >> >>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>> >> >>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> >> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing 
>>>>>> >> >>> list
>>>>>> >> >>> go
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> >> >>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> -- 
>>>>>> >> >> View this message in context:
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660
>>>>>> >> >> 048p24697834.html
>>>>>> >> >> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> >> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing 
>>>>>> >> >> list
>>>>>> >> >> go
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> >> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing 
>>>>>> >> >> list
>>>>>> >> >> go
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >-- 
>>>>>> >> >View this message in context:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660048p24700483.html
>>>>>> >> >Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >__________________________________________________
>>>>>> >> >To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list 
>>>>>> >> >go
>>>>>> >> >to
>>>>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> >> >__________________________________________________
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list 
>>>>>> >> go
>>>>>> >> to
>>>>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >__________________________________________________
>>>>>> >To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go 
>>>>>> >to
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> >__________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
>>>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to 
>>>http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>__________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------ 
>>
>>Message: 3
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:43:04 -0400
>>From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Message-ID: <1BA7BBD3036947F289B013E52D813110 at rhodes>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>>I guess this is a dear John letter
>>
>>John Shulick,
>>
>>That does not sound like the Stan I know. I know I do not ignore the good
>>guys or the bad guys (well maybe with one exception or two) and I do know 
>>I
>>do not get all my e-mails and that some of my e-mail does not get through 
>>as
>>was currently the case with everyone using comcast.net.
>>
>>While I have a lot of Johns and do not recall which one you are, please do
>>not feel slighted because
>>at my age I have trouble remembering if there are any Stands on the list.
>>
>>I do note that you say you have a 71 Rhodes (almost even before my time) 
>>and
>>I do know that when I get an e-mail from someone indicating wanting to put 
>>a
>>lot of money into one of the first Rhodes ever built (and not built by us) 
>>I
>>try very had to discourage them from pouring money into it with the advice
>>to just sail it as is and when ready, get a more recent model since the
>>differences are so drastic.
>>
>>I also note that you say we did sell you parts implying what you got was 
>>not
>>satisfactory but note that you did not say that we always tell whole boat
>>and parts buyers that everything from us is returnable. Did you send back
>>any faulty parts - if not, please do.
>>
>>ss
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "John Shulick" <jsbudda at verizon.net>
>>To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:39 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Ben,
>>>
>>> I think the demise of the demise of the US auto industry has many 
>>> complex
>>> factors in it and while they used the pizza principle I'm not shure
>>> whether
>>> it was the decisive factor in their fall. As for the cost and what the
>>> price
>>> point would be for a "sport model". GB would have to make that
>>> determination. Stan does not seem to notice or respond to any posts I
>>> place
>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat on Ebay and not through
>>> him.
>>> After buying my boat I approached him for a rudder and inquired about 
>>> some
>>> various small parts. He sold me a used rudder assembly with a tiller for
>>> $750.00 The tiller had a crack at the end bolted to the rudder (but
>>> usable)
>>> and I had to seal and paint the blade myself. The request for small 
>>> parts
>>> was ignored. Since I can take a hint I now go to other sources for my 
>>> mast
>>> parts, trailer parts (I am bolting on a new Dexter axle this week as 
>>> part
>>> of
>>> my trailer overhaul this is an exact replacement part not an equivilent) 
>>> ,
>>> and sails. Stan has lost over $2,000 in potential sales to me and by the
>>> time my 71 restoration is finished he will probably loose $2,000 more. I
>>> still am in the market for a 150 Genoa and a furler plus a complete set 
>>> of
>>> standing rigging and hardware. Like yourself I'm looking for parts and
>>> accessories at a fair and resonable price and will find or make them as
>>> needed.
>>>
>>> John S
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John;
>>> You're referring to the old US car manufacturers technique known as "the
>>> pizza principle". Sell the basic model for a decent price but add on an
>>> outrageous markup for each option. The Japanese kicked our butts when 
>>> they
>>> put all the good stuff in every car and the only choice was color.
>>>
>>> I don't think the stripped down racing Rhodes would be that much less
>>> expensive to build, or that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not
>>> building
>>> or selling boats, or cars.
>>>
>>> I just want to know where I can get parts and/or accessories without
>>> losing
>>> a friend, if I can help it, and if it's fair and reasonable.
>>>
>>> BenCittadino
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660048p24704459.html
>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------ 
>>
>>Message: 4
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:49:10 -0400
>>From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Message-ID: <1D4BA299E8024EB6A63F0999A9BD8ED3 at rhodes>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>>even my typing is getting sloppy -
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
>>To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 9:43 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>
>>
>>>I guess this is a dear John letter
>>>
>>> John Shulick,
>>>
>>> That does not sound like the Stan I know. I know I do not ignore the
>>> good
>>> guys or the bad guys (well maybe with one exception or two) and I do 
>>> know
>>> I
>>> do not get all my e-mails and that some of my e-mail does not get 
>>> through
>>> as
>>> was currently the case with everyone using comcast.net.
>>>
>>> While I have a lot of Johns and do not recall which one you are, please 
>>> do
>>> not feel slighted because
>>> at my age I have trouble remembering if there are any Stands on the 
>>> list.
>>>
>>> I do note that you say you have a 71 Rhodes (almost even before my time)
>>> and
>>> I do know that when I get an e-mail from someone indicating wanting to 
>>> put
>>> a
>>> lot of money into one of the first Rhodes ever built (and not built by 
>>> us)
>>> I
>>> try very had to discourage them from pouring money into it with the 
>>> advice
>>> to just sail it as is and when ready, get a more recent model since the
>>> differences are so drastic.
>>>
>>> I also note that you say we did sell you parts implying what you got was
>>> not
>>> satisfactory but note that you did not say that we always tell whole 
>>> boat
>>> and parts buyers that everything from us is returnable. Did you send
>>> back
>>> any faulty parts - if not, please do.
>>>
>>> ss
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "John Shulick" <jsbudda at verizon.net>
>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ben,
>>>>
>>>> I think the demise of the demise of the US auto industry has many 
>>>> complex
>>>> factors in it and while they used the pizza principle I'm not shure
>>>> whether
>>>> it was the decisive factor in their fall. As for the cost and what the
>>>> price
>>>> point would be for a "sport model". GB would have to make that
>>>> determination. Stan does not seem to notice or respond to any posts I
>>>> place
>>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat on Ebay and not through
>>>> him.
>>>> After buying my boat I approached him for a rudder and inquired about
>>>> some
>>>> various small parts. He sold me a used rudder assembly with a tiller 
>>>> for
>>>> $750.00 The tiller had a crack at the end bolted to the rudder (but
>>>> usable)
>>>> and I had to seal and paint the blade myself. The request for small 
>>>> parts
>>>> was ignored. Since I can take a hint I now go to other sources for my
>>>> mast
>>>> parts, trailer parts (I am bolting on a new Dexter axle this week as 
>>>> part
>>>> of
>>>> my trailer overhaul this is an exact replacement part not an 
>>>> equivilent)
>>>> ,
>>>> and sails. Stan has lost over $2,000 in potential sales to me and by 
>>>> the
>>>> time my 71 restoration is finished he will probably loose $2,000 more. 
>>>> I
>>>> still am in the market for a 150 Genoa and a furler plus a complete set
>>>> of
>>>> standing rigging and hardware. Like yourself I'm looking for parts and
>>>> accessories at a fair and resonable price and will find or make them as
>>>> needed.
>>>>
>>>> John S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John;
>>>> You're referring to the old US car manufacturers technique known as 
>>>> "the
>>>> pizza principle". Sell the basic model for a decent price but add on an
>>>> outrageous markup for each option. The Japanese kicked our butts when
>>>> they
>>>> put all the good stuff in every car and the only choice was color.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the stripped down racing Rhodes would be that much less
>>>> expensive to build, or that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not
>>>> building
>>>> or selling boats, or cars.
>>>>
>>>> I just want to know where I can get parts and/or accessories without
>>>> losing
>>>> a friend, if I can help it, and if it's fair and reasonable.
>>>>
>>>> BenCittadino
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>> http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660048p24704459.html
>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------ 
>>
>>Message: 5
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:11:31 -0400
>>From: Lou Rosenberg <lsr3 at nyu.edu>
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in all fairness
>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Message-ID: <8ADB74E6-CF8C-4B63-B1BE-199E3A0F2676 at nyu.edu>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>>
>>Rhodes owners, wanna be owners, and lurkers like me,
>>
>>I bought my R22 from a discouraged owner who had not taken care of
>>the boat and was basically dumping it in the back of
>>a Pt Jefferson yard back in '04. I had been on the list for about a
>>year before this and Stan advised me NOT to buy that boat.
>>I went against his advice and through the years , Stan and Elton have
>>helped me greatly. I ended up only buying about $1500, worth of rigging
>>and supplies on a visit to Edenton NC in 2005, but subsequently Elton
>>brought up a much needed used bow pulpit and new traveler assembly
>>to my yard a few yrs later.
>>
>>In all fairness I have not bought that much from GB over the years
>>but trust their judgement and of course Stan was right, I should've
>>waited and I may've found
>>a better deal. Restoring any boat is NOT that much fun but there are
>>rewards of doing it yourself, but sailing is the eventual goal and
>>ive sacrificed many sailing days to get where I am now.
>>
>>I owe so much to all the people on this list ALL of you helping me
>>out with questions for this novice sailor who has few skills in terms
>>of carpentry, fibreglassing
>>and the like. Next Thurs I hope to launch Miracles for the rest of
>>the year, keeping her in the calm, semi-polluted waters of Mill Basin
>>all winter long.
>>
>>wish me luck , I'll need it.
>>
>>Stan, maybe its time to bring in new blood and find a way to accept
>>some sort of retirement from all this grind?
>>
>>all the best
>>and thanks for all your help
>>
>>Lou Rosenberg
>>s/v Miracles
>>On Jul 29, 2009, at 9:43 AM, stan wrote:
>>
>>> I guess this is a dear John letter
>>>
>>> John Shulick,
>>>
>>> That does not sound like the Stan I know. I know I do not ignore
>>> the good
>>> guys or the bad guys (well maybe with one exception or two) and I
>>> do know I
>>> do not get all my e-mails and that some of my e-mail does not get
>>> through as
>>> was currently the case with everyone using comcast.net.
>>>
>>> While I have a lot of Johns and do not recall which one you are,
>>> please do
>>> not feel slighted because
>>> at my age I have trouble remembering if there are any Stands on the
>>> list.
>>>
>>> I do note that you say you have a 71 Rhodes (almost even before my
>>> time) and
>>> I do know that when I get an e-mail from someone indicating wanting
>>> to put a
>>> lot of money into one of the first Rhodes ever built (and not built
>>> by us) I
>>> try very had to discourage them from pouring money into it with the
>>> advice
>>> to just sail it as is and when ready, get a more recent model since
>>> the
>>> differences are so drastic.
>>>
>>> I also note that you say we did sell you parts implying what you
>>> got was not
>>> satisfactory but note that you did not say that we always tell
>>> whole boat
>>> and parts buyers that everything from us is returnable. Did you
>>> send back
>>> any faulty parts - if not, please do.
>>>
>>> ss
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "John Shulick" <jsbudda at verizon.net>
>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ben,
>>>>
>>>> I think the demise of the demise of the US auto industry has many
>>>> complex
>>>> factors in it and while they used the pizza principle I'm not shure
>>>> whether
>>>> it was the decisive factor in their fall. As for the cost and what
>>>> the
>>>> price
>>>> point would be for a "sport model". GB would have to make that
>>>> determination. Stan does not seem to notice or respond to any posts I
>>>> place
>>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat on Ebay and not
>>>> through
>>>> him.
>>>> After buying my boat I approached him for a rudder and inquired
>>>> about some
>>>> various small parts. He sold me a used rudder assembly with a
>>>> tiller for
>>>> $750.00 The tiller had a crack at the end bolted to the rudder (but
>>>> usable)
>>>> and I had to seal and paint the blade myself. The request for
>>>> small parts
>>>> was ignored. Since I can take a hint I now go to other sources for
>>>> my mast
>>>> parts, trailer parts (I am bolting on a new Dexter axle this week
>>>> as part
>>>> of
>>>> my trailer overhaul this is an exact replacement part not an
>>>> equivilent) ,
>>>> and sails. Stan has lost over $2,000 in potential sales to me and
>>>> by the
>>>> time my 71 restoration is finished he will probably loose $2,000
>>>> more. I
>>>> still am in the market for a 150 Genoa and a furler plus a
>>>> complete set of
>>>> standing rigging and hardware. Like yourself I'm looking for parts
>>>> and
>>>> accessories at a fair and resonable price and will find or make
>>>> them as
>>>> needed.
>>>>
>>>> John S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John;
>>>> You're referring to the old US car manufacturers technique known
>>>> as "the
>>>> pizza principle". Sell the basic model for a decent price but add
>>>> on an
>>>> outrageous markup for each option. The Japanese kicked our butts
>>>> when they
>>>> put all the good stuff in every car and the only choice was color.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the stripped down racing Rhodes would be that much less
>>>> expensive to build, or that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not
>>>> building
>>>> or selling boats, or cars.
>>>>
>>>> I just want to know where I can get parts and/or accessories without
>>>> losing
>>>> a friend, if I can help it, and if it's fair and reasonable.
>>>>
>>>> BenCittadino
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>> http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-
>>>> tp24660048p24704459.html
>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>> go to
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
>>
>>Lou Rosenberg
>>Videographer
>>
>>Steinhardt School of Culture, Education and
>>Human Development at NYU
>>
>>239 Greene Street, Room 315
>>lsr3 at nyu.edu
>>
>>(212) 998-5122
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------ 
>>
>>Message: 6
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:04:28 -0400 (EDT)
>>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in all fairness
>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Message-ID:
>> <25945721.1248879868382.JavaMail.root at elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>>Lou,
>>
>>My guess is retirement in 10-15 years, although I marvel at his, Rose's, 
>>and Elton's energy in this business arena. The composite support effort I 
>>have seen by Rhoadies to help other fleet skippers is incredible, and will 
>>become even more vital in the years ahead. As parts and accessories may 
>>become less available, I, for one, have been keeping my eye out for 
>>alternatives. As I discovered a year ago, the spreader brackets are 
>>available from Dwyer (I'd keep a close eye on your's if they become 
>>distorted with mast stepping using the old GB method). The alternative 
>>transom crutch I use and posted can be fabricated by a SS shop I have done 
>>work with.
>>
>>I have been told that replacement parts is one of the greatest concerns of 
>>fleet skippers if we cannot obtain from GB, a problem I encountered as 
>>long as two years ago. I have usually been able to find a substitute as 
>>necessary. Maybe we can delay Stan's retirement until 20 years!
>>
>>Art
>>
>>-----Original Message----- 
>>>From: Lou Rosenberg <lsr3 at nyu.edu>
>>>Sent: Jul 29, 2009 10:11 AM
>>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in all fairness
>>>
>>>Rhodes owners, wanna be owners, and lurkers like me,
>>>
>>>I bought my R22 from a discouraged owner who had not taken care of
>>>the boat and was basically dumping it in the back of
>>>a Pt Jefferson yard back in '04. I had been on the list for about a
>>>year before this and Stan advised me NOT to buy that boat.
>>>I went against his advice and through the years , Stan and Elton have
>>>helped me greatly. I ended up only buying about $1500, worth of rigging
>>>and supplies on a visit to Edenton NC in 2005, but subsequently Elton
>>>brought up a much needed used bow pulpit and new traveler assembly
>>>to my yard a few yrs later.
>>>
>>>In all fairness I have not bought that much from GB over the years
>>>but trust their judgement and of course Stan was right, I should've
>>>waited and I may've found
>>>a better deal. Restoring any boat is NOT that much fun but there are
>>>rewards of doing it yourself, but sailing is the eventual goal and
>>>ive sacrificed many sailing days to get where I am now.
>>>
>>>I owe so much to all the people on this list ALL of you helping me
>>>out with questions for this novice sailor who has few skills in terms
>>>of carpentry, fibreglassing
>>>and the like. Next Thurs I hope to launch Miracles for the rest of
>>>the year, keeping her in the calm, semi-polluted waters of Mill Basin
>>>all winter long.
>>>
>>>wish me luck , I'll need it.
>>>
>>>Stan, maybe its time to bring in new blood and find a way to accept
>>>some sort of retirement from all this grind?
>>>
>>>all the best
>>>and thanks for all your help
>>>
>>>Lou Rosenberg
>>>s/v Miracles
>>>On Jul 29, 2009, at 9:43 AM, stan wrote:
>>>
>>>> I guess this is a dear John letter
>>>>
>>>> John Shulick,
>>>>
>>>> That does not sound like the Stan I know. I know I do not ignore
>>>> the good
>>>> guys or the bad guys (well maybe with one exception or two) and I
>>>> do know I
>>>> do not get all my e-mails and that some of my e-mail does not get
>>>> through as
>>>> was currently the case with everyone using comcast.net.
>>>>
>>>> While I have a lot of Johns and do not recall which one you are,
>>>> please do
>>>> not feel slighted because
>>>> at my age I have trouble remembering if there are any Stands on the
>>>> list.
>>>>
>>>> I do note that you say you have a 71 Rhodes (almost even before my
>>>> time) and
>>>> I do know that when I get an e-mail from someone indicating wanting
>>>> to put a
>>>> lot of money into one of the first Rhodes ever built (and not built
>>>> by us) I
>>>> try very had to discourage them from pouring money into it with the
>>>> advice
>>>> to just sail it as is and when ready, get a more recent model since
>>>> the
>>>> differences are so drastic.
>>>>
>>>> I also note that you say we did sell you parts implying what you
>>>> got was not
>>>> satisfactory but note that you did not say that we always tell
>>>> whole boat
>>>> and parts buyers that everything from us is returnable. Did you
>>>> send back
>>>> any faulty parts - if not, please do.
>>>>
>>>> ss
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "John Shulick" <jsbudda at verizon.net>
>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:39 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ben,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the demise of the demise of the US auto industry has many
>>>>> complex
>>>>> factors in it and while they used the pizza principle I'm not shure
>>>>> whether
>>>>> it was the decisive factor in their fall. As for the cost and what
>>>>> the
>>>>> price
>>>>> point would be for a "sport model". GB would have to make that
>>>>> determination. Stan does not seem to notice or respond to any posts I
>>>>> place
>>>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat on Ebay and not
>>>>> through
>>>>> him.
>>>>> After buying my boat I approached him for a rudder and inquired
>>>>> about some
>>>>> various small parts. He sold me a used rudder assembly with a
>>>>> tiller for
>>>>> $750.00 The tiller had a crack at the end bolted to the rudder (but
>>>>> usable)
>>>>> and I had to seal and paint the blade myself. The request for
>>>>> small parts
>>>>> was ignored. Since I can take a hint I now go to other sources for
>>>>> my mast
>>>>> parts, trailer parts (I am bolting on a new Dexter axle this week
>>>>> as part
>>>>> of
>>>>> my trailer overhaul this is an exact replacement part not an
>>>>> equivilent) ,
>>>>> and sails. Stan has lost over $2,000 in potential sales to me and
>>>>> by the
>>>>> time my 71 restoration is finished he will probably loose $2,000
>>>>> more. I
>>>>> still am in the market for a 150 Genoa and a furler plus a
>>>>> complete set of
>>>>> standing rigging and hardware. Like yourself I'm looking for parts
>>>>> and
>>>>> accessories at a fair and resonable price and will find or make
>>>>> them as
>>>>> needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> John S
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John;
>>>>> You're referring to the old US car manufacturers technique known
>>>>> as "the
>>>>> pizza principle". Sell the basic model for a decent price but add
>>>>> on an
>>>>> outrageous markup for each option. The Japanese kicked our butts
>>>>> when they
>>>>> put all the good stuff in every car and the only choice was color.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the stripped down racing Rhodes would be that much less
>>>>> expensive to build, or that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not
>>>>> building
>>>>> or selling boats, or cars.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just want to know where I can get parts and/or accessories without
>>>>> losing
>>>>> a friend, if I can help it, and if it's fair and reasonable.
>>>>>
>>>>> BenCittadino
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-
>>>>> tp24660048p24704459.html
>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>> go to
>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>>Lou Rosenberg
>>>Videographer
>>>
>>>Steinhardt School of Culture, Education and
>>>Human Development at NYU
>>>
>>>239 Greene Street, Room 315
>>>lsr3 at nyu.edu
>>>
>>>(212) 998-5122
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
>>>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to 
>>>http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>__________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------ 
>>
>>Message: 7
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:05:27 -0400
>>From: "Lowe, Rob" <rlowe at vt.edu>
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in all fairness
>>To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Message-ID:
>> <7A5B57319AFF9D4A8060949F2E724D5E02B8B38D at mirkwood.cc.w2k.vt.edu>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>Lou,
>>Good luck to you! It's been fun following along with your trials and
>>progress over the years. I could have done what you have done, I'm glad
>>my '76 was sailable from day one.
>>
>>Now where is Mill Basin and Rockaway Inlet exactly? I'm hunting on
>>yahoo maps and you're in the New York area?? - Rob
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message----- 
>>From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Lou Rosenberg
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 10:12 AM
>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in all fairness
>>
>>Rhodes owners, wanna be owners, and lurkers like me,
>>
>>I bought my R22 from a discouraged owner who had not taken care of
>>the boat and was basically dumping it in the back of
>>a Pt Jefferson yard back in '04. I had been on the list for about a
>>year before this and Stan advised me NOT to buy that boat.
>>I went against his advice and through the years , Stan and Elton have
>>helped me greatly. I ended up only buying about $1500, worth of rigging
>>and supplies on a visit to Edenton NC in 2005, but subsequently Elton
>>brought up a much needed used bow pulpit and new traveler assembly
>>to my yard a few yrs later.
>>
>>In all fairness I have not bought that much from GB over the years
>>but trust their judgement and of course Stan was right, I should've
>>waited and I may've found
>>a better deal. Restoring any boat is NOT that much fun but there are
>>rewards of doing it yourself, but sailing is the eventual goal and
>>ive sacrificed many sailing days to get where I am now.
>>
>>I owe so much to all the people on this list ALL of you helping me
>>out with questions for this novice sailor who has few skills in terms
>>of carpentry, fibreglassing
>>and the like. Next Thurs I hope to launch Miracles for the rest of
>>the year, keeping her in the calm, semi-polluted waters of Mill Basin
>>all winter long.
>>
>>wish me luck , I'll need it.
>>
>>Stan, maybe its time to bring in new blood and find a way to accept
>>some sort of retirement from all this grind?
>>
>>all the best
>>and thanks for all your help
>>
>>Lou Rosenberg
>>s/v Miracles
>>On Jul 29, 2009, at 9:43 AM, stan wrote:
>>
>>> I guess this is a dear John letter
>>>
>>> John Shulick,
>>>
>>> That does not sound like the Stan I know. I know I do not ignore
>>> the good
>>> guys or the bad guys (well maybe with one exception or two) and I
>>> do know I
>>> do not get all my e-mails and that some of my e-mail does not get
>>> through as
>>> was currently the case with everyone using comcast.net.
>>>
>>> While I have a lot of Johns and do not recall which one you are,
>>> please do
>>> not feel slighted because
>>> at my age I have trouble remembering if there are any Stands on the
>>> list.
>>>
>>> I do note that you say you have a 71 Rhodes (almost even before my
>>> time) and
>>> I do know that when I get an e-mail from someone indicating wanting
>>> to put a
>>> lot of money into one of the first Rhodes ever built (and not built
>>> by us) I
>>> try very had to discourage them from pouring money into it with the
>>> advice
>>> to just sail it as is and when ready, get a more recent model since
>>> the
>>> differences are so drastic.
>>>
>>> I also note that you say we did sell you parts implying what you
>>> got was not
>>> satisfactory but note that you did not say that we always tell
>>> whole boat
>>> and parts buyers that everything from us is returnable. Did you
>>> send back
>>> any faulty parts - if not, please do.
>>>
>>> ss
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "John Shulick" <jsbudda at verizon.net>
>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ben,
>>>>
>>>> I think the demise of the demise of the US auto industry has many
>>>> complex
>>>> factors in it and while they used the pizza principle I'm not shure
>>>> whether
>>>> it was the decisive factor in their fall. As for the cost and what
>>>> the
>>>> price
>>>> point would be for a "sport model". GB would have to make that
>>>> determination. Stan does not seem to notice or respond to any posts I
>>>> place
>>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat on Ebay and not
>>>> through
>>>> him.
>>>> After buying my boat I approached him for a rudder and inquired
>>>> about some
>>>> various small parts. He sold me a used rudder assembly with a
>>>> tiller for
>>>> $750.00 The tiller had a crack at the end bolted to the rudder (but
>>>> usable)
>>>> and I had to seal and paint the blade myself. The request for
>>>> small parts
>>>> was ignored. Since I can take a hint I now go to other sources for
>>>> my mast
>>>> parts, trailer parts (I am bolting on a new Dexter axle this week
>>>> as part
>>>> of
>>>> my trailer overhaul this is an exact replacement part not an
>>>> equivilent) ,
>>>> and sails. Stan has lost over $2,000 in potential sales to me and
>>>> by the
>>>> time my 71 restoration is finished he will probably loose $2,000
>>>> more. I
>>>> still am in the market for a 150 Genoa and a furler plus a
>>>> complete set of
>>>> standing rigging and hardware. Like yourself I'm looking for parts
>>>> and
>>>> accessories at a fair and resonable price and will find or make
>>>> them as
>>>> needed.
>>>>
>>>> John S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John;
>>>> You're referring to the old US car manufacturers technique known
>>>> as "the
>>>> pizza principle". Sell the basic model for a decent price but add
>>>> on an
>>>> outrageous markup for each option. The Japanese kicked our butts
>>>> when they
>>>> put all the good stuff in every car and the only choice was color.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the stripped down racing Rhodes would be that much less
>>>> expensive to build, or that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not
>>>> building
>>>> or selling boats, or cars.
>>>>
>>>> I just want to know where I can get parts and/or accessories without
>>>> losing
>>>> a friend, if I can help it, and if it's fair and reasonable.
>>>>
>>>> BenCittadino
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>> http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-
>>>> tp24660048p24704459.html
>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>> go to
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
>>
>>Lou Rosenberg
>>Videographer
>>
>>Steinhardt School of Culture, Education and
>>Human Development at NYU
>>
>>239 Greene Street, Room 315
>>lsr3 at nyu.edu
>>
>>(212) 998-5122
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>__________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------ 
>>
>>Message: 8
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:30:55 -0400 (EDT)
>>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>
>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yellowstone Lake, Jackson Lake Sailing
>>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>Message-ID:
>> <10147864.1248881456189.JavaMail.root at elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>>Caesar,
>>
>>How goes the sailing? I have been told of the excellent sailing in the 
>>Wyoming area by a member of the Montgomery fleet, possibly not far from 
>>you at all. Apparently Yellowstone Lake is excellent, with the only 
>>exception being a fixed bridge between the lake and marina. The same 
>>skipper reported that Jackson Lake has no obstructions to contend with, 
>>and is much more favorable anyway, apparently even warm enough to swim in. 
>>My Swedish cousins laugh at our caution about cold water and insist they 
>>usually break the Baltic ice to take a refreshing dip.
>>
>>I am told the marinas on the south shore are impressive, and the only 
>>irritant is mosquitos in the shallow water areas of the lake.
>>
>>Have you tried sailing here? I camped there years ago, and it is awesome 
>>scenery.
>>
>>Best to you,
>>
>>Art
>>
>>
>>------------------------------ 
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Rhodes22-list mailing list
>>Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>
>>
>>End of Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1931, Issue 1
>>**********************************************
>>__________________________________________________
>>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to 
>>http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>__________________________________________________
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to 
> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
> 


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