[Rhodes22-list] Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 2730, Issue 1

Wed Nov 30 14:39:15 EST 2011

If you have a local small airport that sells avgas it is relatively free of varnish substance and has a barrel life of 7 years. It contains lead but engines ran on lead for many years and it helps cool valves. Also a higher octane doesn't hurt an engine, it just makes up for any octane loss over time.

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Today's Topics:

   1. Three Ethanol Myths Clarified (Michael D. Weisner)
   2. Re: Three Ethanol Myths Clarified (Rick)
   3. Re: Three Ethanol Myths Clarified (Lowe, Rob)
   4. Re: Three Ethanol Myths Clarified (Rob Granger)
   5. Re: Three Ethanol Myths Clarified (Lowe, Rob)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:37:19 -0500
From: "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Three Ethanol Myths Clarified
To: "'The Rhodes 22 Email List'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID: <00a501ccaec5$eddfcfc0$c99f6f40$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

This may answer some of your questions about ethanol gasoline mixes and shed
light on the problems we have had with the engines.

Mike

s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)

Nissequogue River, NY

Three Ethanol Myths Clarified
<http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp> 

By Bob Adriance

It's time we get to the bottom of how E10 is affecting our engines

In the few years since ethanol began to be widely used in the United States,
a lot has been written about its properties, the problems it's created, and
how to best cope with its possible effects. Some of the advice has been
based on science, some on hearsay. While E10 is not an ideal fuel - and E15
could cause serious problems for marine engines - at least a few myths about
ethanol have arisen with the potential to do more harm than good:

http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/assets/img/ethanol.jpg

Myth #1: Ethanol-enhanced gasoline (E10) loses octane much faster than
regular gasoline.

Many mechanics believe that octane loss during winter storage could be great
enough to damage an engine when it's run in the spring. These same mechanics
will often recommend leaving the tank almost empty so that fresh gasoline
can be added in the spring to raise depleted octane levels. While all
gasoline loses octane as it ages, ethanol-enhanced gasoline loses octane at
about the same rate as regular gasoline, according to Jim Simnick, a
technical advisor at BP Global Fuels Technology, and Lew Gibbs, a senior
engineering consultant and Chevron Fellow. The two men have over 75 years of
combined experience working with gasoline and both agree that the loss of
octane over the winter would not be sufficient to damage an engine. Note,
however, to keep any gasoline, including E10, as fresh as possible; they
said it's good practice to always add fuel stabilizer - an antioxidant -
whenever the boat will be idle for long periods.

The recommendation to leave a tank mostly empty is bad advice; it could
significantly increase the amount of water that gets into the tank. When
enough water enters through the vent, the ethanol will separate ("phase
separate") from the gasoline. Leaving a tank mostly empty does three things
to increase the chances of phase separation:

It increases the volume of open space in the tank (its "lung capacity") so
it can "breathe in" damaging moist air. An almost-empty tank leaves more
space on tank walls for condensation to form. Leaving less gasoline in the
tank means there will be less ethanol to absorb the condensation.

It's interesting to note that in areas of the Midwest that have been dealing
with E10 for over a decade, topping off tanks is common practice. (As an
alternative, completely emptying the tank would eliminate any chance of
phase separation.)

If phase separation occurs, the highly corrosive ethanol/water mixture will
settle to the bottom of the tank and remain there even after fresh fuel is
added in the spring. The only way to remedy the problem would then be to
drain the tank and add fresh gasoline. The best way to avoid phase
separation over the winter (aside from emptying the tank) is to leave the
tank 95-percent full (which allows for expansion) so that there's less moist
air in the tank, less space for condensation to collect, and more gasoline
to absorb whatever moisture does accumulate.

Myth #2: E10 attracts water, so it's important to install a water separator
to prevent the water reaching the engine.

Mercury Marine, which recently hosted a Webinar on ethanol myths, noted that
ethanol does not "grab water molecules out of the air." It is hydrophilic,
which means ethanol holds water. With regular gasoline (E0) as well at E10,
the primary cause of water collecting in tanks is condensation on tank
walls. But unlike E0, which can absorb almost no moisture, E10 can hold up
to half of one percent of water by volume, and the water molecules will
dissolve in the fuel. The "solubilized" water will bypass the water
separator and burn harmlessly through the engine. Only if phase separation
were to occur would a water separator do its job, but by then the fuel
itself would be the problem. The phase-separated water/ethanol mixture would
settle on the bottom of the tank near the fuel pick-up and would quickly
stall out or even damage your engine. And because ethanol is used to boost
octane, the remaining (low-octane) gasoline at the top of the tank would
also have the potential to damage your engine.

Note, however, that a fuel filter (10-micron) is essential to keep gunk from
reaching your engine. Ethanol is a solvent that dissolves resins, rust, and
dirt that have accumulated on older tank walls. Especially when you first
make the transition to E10, it's important to carry spare filters and a
galvanized bucket to store used filters prior to disposal. Even in new
engines and tanks, E10 will sometimes form a mysterious gooey substance that
will also clog filters. Richard Kolb, the manager of Emissions and
Regulations for Volvo Penta, believes the goo is caused by water mixing with
one or more of the 108 approved compounds that can be used in gasoline.
These compounds vary among suppliers, so one solution is to change to a
different brand of gasoline. Another is to use carburetor cleaner, which he
says has sometimes remedied the problem.

Myth #3: Certain additives can prevent phase separation?

Both Gibbs and Simnick said that the additives that eliminate water may work
incrementally to protect against phase separation, but Joe Simnick stressed
that no additives will stand up to a good slug of water. Lew Gibbs added
that the best way to prevent phase separation in E10 is to "keep it dry,
keep it dry, keep it dry." That means keeping the tank filled to prevent
condensation. Mercury Marine has also noted that, contrary to statements
made by some companies that produce fuel additives, there are no additives
that can make stale or phase-separated gasoline usable.

E10 is certainly not as trouble-free as E0, especially the first few
tankfulls. But for newer engines, those built after about 1991, there's no
reason the initial problems can't be overcome. No less an authority than
Mercury Marine says, "After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually
be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving
through the fuel system, keeping the 
system 'dry.'"http://www.boatus.com/magazine/assets/img/StoryEnd.png

Bob Adriance is Editor of Seaworthy, the BoatUS Marine Insurance
damage-avoidance publication, and author of Seaworthy, Essential Lessons of
Things Gone Wrong (published by International Marine/McGraw Hill, available
at www.Amazon.com
<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/007145327X/qid=1137435438/002-5727410-9825
655>  and major bookstores).

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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 20:45:46 -0500
From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Three Ethanol Myths Clarified
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID:
	<CABkv36a-+5Ump1XKX5p2EHNCgLw7S8gXN74zgXVW5gx1WRD0SA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Here's a more scarey picture of an ethanol corroded carburetor float bowl
taken from a marine engine.

Rick

On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Michael D. Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com>wrote:

>
> This may answer some of your questions about ethanol gasoline mixes and
> shed
> light on the problems we have had with the engines.
>
>
> Mike
>
> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>
> Nissequogue River, NY
>
>
>
>
>
> Three Ethanol Myths Clarified
> <http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp>
>
>
> By Bob Adriance
>
>
> It's time we get to the bottom of how E10 is affecting our engines
>
> In the few years since ethanol began to be widely used in the United
> States,
> a lot has been written about its properties, the problems it's created, and
> how to best cope with its possible effects. Some of the advice has been
> based on science, some on hearsay. While E10 is not an ideal fuel - and E15
> could cause serious problems for marine engines - at least a few myths
> about
> ethanol have arisen with the potential to do more harm than good:
>
> http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/assets/img/ethanol.jpg
>
>
> Myth #1: Ethanol-enhanced gasoline (E10) loses octane much faster than
> regular gasoline.
>
>
>
> Many mechanics believe that octane loss during winter storage could be
> great
> enough to damage an engine when it's run in the spring. These same
> mechanics
> will often recommend leaving the tank almost empty so that fresh gasoline
> can be added in the spring to raise depleted octane levels. While all
> gasoline loses octane as it ages, ethanol-enhanced gasoline loses octane at
> about the same rate as regular gasoline, according to Jim Simnick, a
> technical advisor at BP Global Fuels Technology, and Lew Gibbs, a senior
> engineering consultant and Chevron Fellow. The two men have over 75 years
> of
> combined experience working with gasoline and both agree that the loss of
> octane over the winter would not be sufficient to damage an engine. Note,
> however, to keep any gasoline, including E10, as fresh as possible; they
> said it's good practice to always add fuel stabilizer - an antioxidant -
> whenever the boat will be idle for long periods.
>
> The recommendation to leave a tank mostly empty is bad advice; it could
> significantly increase the amount of water that gets into the tank. When
> enough water enters through the vent, the ethanol will separate ("phase
> separate") from the gasoline. Leaving a tank mostly empty does three things
> to increase the chances of phase separation:
>
> It increases the volume of open space in the tank (its "lung capacity") so
> it can "breathe in" damaging moist air. An almost-empty tank leaves more
> space on tank walls for condensation to form. Leaving less gasoline in the
> tank means there will be less ethanol to absorb the condensation.
>
> It's interesting to note that in areas of the Midwest that have been
> dealing
> with E10 for over a decade, topping off tanks is common practice. (As an
> alternative, completely emptying the tank would eliminate any chance of
> phase separation.)
>
> If phase separation occurs, the highly corrosive ethanol/water mixture will
> settle to the bottom of the tank and remain there even after fresh fuel is
> added in the spring. The only way to remedy the problem would then be to
> drain the tank and add fresh gasoline. The best way to avoid phase
> separation over the winter (aside from emptying the tank) is to leave the
> tank 95-percent full (which allows for expansion) so that there's less
> moist
> air in the tank, less space for condensation to collect, and more gasoline
> to absorb whatever moisture does accumulate.
>
>
> Myth #2: E10 attracts water, so it's important to install a water separator
> to prevent the water reaching the engine.
>
>
>
> Mercury Marine, which recently hosted a Webinar on ethanol myths, noted
> that
> ethanol does not "grab water molecules out of the air." It is hydrophilic,
> which means ethanol holds water. With regular gasoline (E0) as well at E10,
> the primary cause of water collecting in tanks is condensation on tank
> walls. But unlike E0, which can absorb almost no moisture, E10 can hold up
> to half of one percent of water by volume, and the water molecules will
> dissolve in the fuel. The "solubilized" water will bypass the water
> separator and burn harmlessly through the engine. Only if phase separation
> were to occur would a water separator do its job, but by then the fuel
> itself would be the problem. The phase-separated water/ethanol mixture
> would
> settle on the bottom of the tank near the fuel pick-up and would quickly
> stall out or even damage your engine. And because ethanol is used to boost
> octane, the remaining (low-octane) gasoline at the top of the tank would
> also have the potential to damage your engine.
>
> Note, however, that a fuel filter (10-micron) is essential to keep gunk
> from
> reaching your engine. Ethanol is a solvent that dissolves resins, rust, and
> dirt that have accumulated on older tank walls. Especially when you first
> make the transition to E10, it's important to carry spare filters and a
> galvanized bucket to store used filters prior to disposal. Even in new
> engines and tanks, E10 will sometimes form a mysterious gooey substance
> that
> will also clog filters. Richard Kolb, the manager of Emissions and
> Regulations for Volvo Penta, believes the goo is caused by water mixing
> with
> one or more of the 108 approved compounds that can be used in gasoline.
> These compounds vary among suppliers, so one solution is to change to a
> different brand of gasoline. Another is to use carburetor cleaner, which he
> says has sometimes remedied the problem.
>
>
> Myth #3: Certain additives can prevent phase separation?
>
>
>
> Both Gibbs and Simnick said that the additives that eliminate water may
> work
> incrementally to protect against phase separation, but Joe Simnick stressed
> that no additives will stand up to a good slug of water. Lew Gibbs added
> that the best way to prevent phase separation in E10 is to "keep it dry,
> keep it dry, keep it dry." That means keeping the tank filled to prevent
> condensation. Mercury Marine has also noted that, contrary to statements
> made by some companies that produce fuel additives, there are no additives
> that can make stale or phase-separated gasoline usable.
>
> E10 is certainly not as trouble-free as E0, especially the first few
> tankfulls. But for newer engines, those built after about 1991, there's no
> reason the initial problems can't be overcome. No less an authority than
> Mercury Marine says, "After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually
> be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving
> through the fuel system, keeping the
> system 'dry.'"http://www.boatus.com/magazine/assets/img/StoryEnd.png
>
> Bob Adriance is Editor of Seaworthy, the BoatUS Marine Insurance
> damage-avoidance publication, and author of Seaworthy, Essential Lessons of
> Things Gone Wrong (published by International Marine/McGraw Hill, available
> at www.Amazon.com
> <
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/007145327X/qid=1137435438/002-5727410-9825
> 655>  and major bookstores).
>
>
>
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> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:05:52 -0500
From: "Lowe, Rob" <rlowe at vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Three Ethanol Myths Clarified
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID:
	<20DE79EA3783484A94EF626CFBEB95B32DFC568EBD at rivendell.cc.w2k.vt.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I'm blaming ethanol for turning my fuel tank contents into what looked like Jell-O last year which completely fouled my motor.

>E10 will sometimes form a mysterious gooey substance that will also clog filters.

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 8:46 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Three Ethanol Myths Clarified

Here's a more scarey picture of an ethanol corroded carburetor float bowl taken from a marine engine.

Rick

_________________________________

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:09:51 -0500
From: Rob Granger <rgranger at sbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Three Ethanol Myths Clarified
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID:
	<CACh5v-MYND9epm-ro=Y16qTyND6-7ZGP0drWn68=hWogf+CviQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I did not get the picture

can you reattach?

mack

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 9:05 AM, Lowe, Rob <rlowe at vt.edu> wrote:

> I'm blaming ethanol for turning my fuel tank contents into what looked
> like Jell-O last year which completely fouled my motor.
>
> >E10 will sometimes form a mysterious gooey substance that will also clog
> filters.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org [mailto:
> rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rick
> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 8:46 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Three Ethanol Myths Clarified
>
> Here's a more scarey picture of an ethanol corroded carburetor float bowl
> taken from a marine engine.
>
> Rick
>
> _________________________________
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>

-- 
Dr. Robert Granger
Department of Chemistry
Sweet Briar College
434-381-6403
rgranger at sbc.edu

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:38:15 -0500
From: "Lowe, Rob" <rlowe at vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Three Ethanol Myths Clarified
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID:
	<20DE79EA3783484A94EF626CFBEB95B32DFC568EFD at rivendell.cc.w2k.vt.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Mack,
Links to photos show up at the very bottom of the message.  Here it is. - rob

http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20111129/9a81ffd9/attachment.jpg

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rob Granger
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 9:10 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Three Ethanol Myths Clarified

I did not get the picture

can you reattach?

mack
__________________________________________________

------------------------------

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End of Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 2730, Issue 1
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