[Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions

Peter and Jennifer sailer291 at hotmail.com
Thu May 2 08:47:24 EDT 2013 

Graham,great Canadian idea in good old boat, ultimate mast raising setup, wish l had this for my old yawl.http://www.goodoldboat.com/promo_pdfs/May13_Promo.pdfpeter

> From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 18:34:40 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
> 
> Rummy: That is good advice and reassuring. I'll leave the hull as is.
> 
> As for "knowing what I was doing when I bought the boat, that would be an
> unqualified exaggeration. I first saw a Rhodes at the Toronto Boat Show in
> 1975. It cost $5500 new  but might as well have cost ten times that amount
> as I barely had a nickel. I just went to the show to dream. While there I
> picked up Stan's reading material and as everyone with a Rhodes knows, his
> description of the boat and its features was totally engrossing as well as
> very funny. I never saw a Rhodes after that until about 1994 when one became
> available in Hamilton. I had eventually bout several boats over the years
> with the latest being a Mirage 27. It was a beautiful boat but I wanted one
> I could trailer as I wanted to get to new places and also avoid the hassle
> and costs of a bigger boat. I looked at everything that was available in a
> trailerable boat but nothing seemed right. But when I saw the ad for the
> Rhodes, I knew immediately that is what I wanted. I still had the original
> material from 20 years earlier.
> 
> The fellow wanted $9,000. That seemed not too far out of place for a similar
> boat, motor and trailer. I would have been glad to pay that  price as I was
> buying a dream as much as I was buying a boat.  When I asked, quite meekly,
> if he would consider a lower price, he immediately said that he was about to
> lower the asking price to $6,500. I managed to keep my composure long enough
> to ask, if this was his asking price what would he actually accept?  He said
> $5,000. Given that I was fully prepare to pay his original price I was
> afraid that if I hesitated for a moment longer he would lower his price and
> I was already feeling guilty a hell so I practically shouted "sold". 
> 
> Yes, the boat needed work and I happily spent the summer doing what was
> necessary to make it look nice. It was only as time went on that I
> discovered more important problems. Two years ago when I was told the boat
> had serious deck delamination that would be hell to fix and that I should
> just sail it into the dump that I decided to do a keel to masthead rebuild -
> starting with the deck as I figured that if I really screwed it up I would
> not have lost much. I have done everything since as a complete armature just
> figuring it out as best I could along the way. 
> 
> The point of the story is that I bought a boat as though I was finding a
> lost love. The "project" part came later. It was done in complete ignorance
> as is usually the case with decisions that involve pure emotion. After all,
> is there ever a purely rational reason to own a boat? . But working on my
> Rhodes is enormously satisfying, problematic as it is. I wanted a big
> challenge and I loved the boat. I don't think there is anything that holds a
> candle to it in this class and size of boat. The design is pure genius with
> every inevitable compromise being the one I would have chosen had I been
> there, with Stan, when it was designed.
> 
> Graham 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of John Tonjes
> Sent: May-01-13 5:15 PM
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
> 
> We have discussed the hull bulging while sitting on the trailer many times
> previously. As you mentioned, it goes away once launched. Adding additional
> support also adds weight and changes the characteristics of the boat from
> the original design. I know of a hull where a previous owner attempted to
> add additional layers of fiberglass to the hull. It didn't work very well
> and during a bottom restoration every bit of it had to be removed. The new
> owner had no idea his hull had been done that way.That being said, Stan has
> made quite a few changes (most for the good) over the 40+ years that the
> Rhodes has been his baby. When changes are made, thought as to total
> structural integrity, weight and balance of the hull are always considered. 
> Simple fact, there ain't much wrong with a Rhodes. My hull is 25+ years old
> and I still love to sail her It sounds to me that you purchased a project
> boat and hopefully you knew that when you got her. Good luck and keep
> posting.
> 
> Rummy
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Graham Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Wed, May 1, 2013 4:47 pm
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
> 
> 
> Thanks Rummy. 
> 
> Actually the hull is only a 74 and I know the earlier work by third party
> contractors could be pretty bad. I don't know when Stan  brought the work in
> house and what he did to change the construction over the years but would
> love to hear from anyone who might know. 
> 
> I try to remember to mention the age of my boat and the fact that my
> construction might well be inferior to latter model boats in my posts. So
> thanks for making that important point.  I don't want to alarm those with
> newer boats. At the same time, those with older boats, if there are any
> besides me, or those considering the purchase of an older boat might need to
> be cautioned. 
> 
> At the same time, being so old, there may be problems that take a longer
> time to become apparent. It is not unreasonable to expect that any boat will
> need some substantial reinvigoration after 40 years. It has held its age
> better  than I have. The boat has its problems but I still think that it is
> worth the work to repair especially when you consider the cost of a new
> Rhodes. 
> 
> It seems like the chainplate construction hasn't changed over the years. 
> 
> Does anyone know if the hull thickness has changed? When I removed the
> kitchen and bulkhead I could see that the hull bulged in quite significantly
> where the forward strut of the trailer bunk pressed on the hull. I raised
> the boat on the trailer to take the weight off the hull and it seems that
> the bulge is disappearing.  I was considering reinforcing the hull with
> additional layers of cloth since it is all exposed at the moment and would
> be more inclined to do so if I knew that the newer hulls were thicker. 
> 
> Does anyone know whether the  deck construction and core material has
> changed? Better quality plywood that was sealed with resin or epoxy and
> bonded strongly to the deck would make a huge difference I would think. 
> 
> It seems from reading other posts that the hull-deck join in some years was
> dependant on screws alone. That would not be an improvement I would think. 
> 
> The ballast arrangements and fill for the keel have changed a number of
> times with some boats having cement poured on the cabin bilge in front of
> the mast post and also in the keel. I can't say that I like that idea much
> and am thankful that mine appears to be bricks of steel that are bonded to
> the hull as well as a mix of what looks like lead flakes and a very soft
> resin mix in the keel. At the same time the bottom of the keel appears to be
> very weak and has developed a huge crack all around the slot for the
> centreboard - something that no one else seems to have experienced. Mine was
> not caused by grounding - not over the last 20 years that I have owned it at
> least - so I tend to think that the fibreglass in that area was too thin.
> 
> Anyway, I agree with Rummy's caution that one should not assume that
> construction problems of a boat of my vintage are present in other boats
> without careful confirmation.. Nor should we assume that all changes
> necessarily turned out to be improvements - especially over the test of
> time.
> 
> 
> Graham 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of
> R22RumRunner at aol.com
> Sent: May-01-13 3:05 PM
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint reseal questions
> 
> Graham,
> Just a caution here. Your hull if I remember correctly is a 77 model. Back
> in those days Stan had other firms doing his fiberglass work. That's part of
> the  reason he won't recycle a hull that old. Many of the problems you
> encountered  are no longer problems with the newer hulls.
>  
> Rummy
>  
>  
> In a message dated 5/1/2013 10:35:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> gstewart8 at cogeco.ca writes:
> 
> Mike:  
> 
> The picks might work fine. This is really a trial and error process.  What
> works partly depends on what the sealant is like. Silicone might come  out
> in longer pieces but other types are more tenacious and will probably  have
> to be cut or scraped out as it tends to crumble. The concave shape of  the
> hull makes it easier to get the tool in the slot. You might try  protecting
> the any visible surface with tape. If you try the hacksaw blade  you can get
> a plastic handle for a few bucks  that will make life  easier for you. I
> would be reluctant to put anything in the slot that does  not completely
> compress.
> As that might simply hold the gap open. I think  the trick is to get the
> sealant way up inside and then compress the join  before the sealant cures.
> You will not get as good a seal if you wait for  it to cure even though some
> like Don Casey suggest a two-stage process of  tightening it down moderately
> until the sealant sets and then more firmly  afterwards. Mind you, he is
> talking about deck hardware where you have big  bolts with backing plates
> that allow you to apply heavy compressive forces.  Others are very critical
> of that approach and I happen to agree with them.  I want the sealant to
> spread out and fill all voids and I can't see that  happening once it has
> set. Neither can I see how the sealant will adhere to  the surfaces once it
> has set even if you could apply enough compressive  force to make it spread.
> 
> When I removes the foredeck of my boat I was  able to expose the hull deck
> join and found that the sealant has been  applied sparsely and with
> significant gaps. If your boat is like mine,  careful installation of the
> sealant will produce much better results than  the original. The hard part,
> but most critical, is getting the old stuff  out.
> 
> By the way, if you look at a cross section of the hill-deck join  (see
> attached photos) you will see that the plywood core at the edge of the  deck
> is exposed to anything that gets up the slot - whether water of bugs -  I
> had both. So the problem is not just a matter of a few splashes of water
> inside the boat, it is also a matter of possible core rot and bug
> infestation. So a good seal is important. Using a sealant with good adhesive
> qualities will also strengthen the whole boat. The strongest is
> 5200 but that stuff is impossible to remove if that ever becomes necessary.
> If it is done well, removal should not be necessary so it might be the most
> permanent solution but the stuff worries me. It is another one of those
> double-edged swords. 
> 
> As an aside, you will also see from the photos  that the plywood core
> literally hangs on the outer skin with some kind of  caulking and the inner
> liner then hangs onto the plywood core. There is no  structural support that
> I could find. So, all of the downward force is  pulling the sandwich
> construction apart. Even the adhesive between the  layers of the plywood had
> given way. I hope that later model boats use  better plywood. With flexing
> over the years it can all come apart.   When I removed the foredeck on my
> boat I found that the caulking holding  the plywood to the outer skin and
> liner was very sparse and in places not  even touching both surfaces. I
> could pull the liner off and remove the  plywood with my hands. Hence the
> spongy deck. You can see the delamination  in the close up photo. Of course
> this kind of "fix" was extreme and  ultimately was unnecessary once I knew
> what was happening inside the core  but at least it provides some photos of
> what is under the skin of the deck  for those who might have a spongy deck
> and are wondering about the options  to fix it. As you might guess, putting
> it all back together was a major  pain. I wish I had know then what I know
> now. It would have saved me a ton  of work. On the other hand I now have a
> foredeck that is as solid as  concrete and probably able to pierce a steel
> hull - which is nice for a  change.
> 
> BTW, I have a vent in the cabin top that once removed gave me a  view of the
> core at least in that area. It appears to me that the top is  made much
> better with a core that is over one inch thick. I saw no  indication of
> delamination, thank goodness.
> 
> Graham  
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:  rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]  On Behalf Of Mike C
> Sent: May-01-13 6:46 AM
> To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] hull deck joint  reseal questions
> 
> Graham - thanks for the idea of wedging the joint open  a bit wider to get
> the sealant further in!  Muireann definitely has  screws that were behind
> the rub rail mounting strip and, so far at least,  no rivets that I've
> found. 
> Starting to clean things up.  I'll try the  hack saw blade, though I confess
> some trepidation about damaging her  paint.  Also, our friends at Harbor
> Freight have a four piece hook and  pick  set
> (http://www.harborfreight.com/4-piece-pick-and-hook-set-66836.html) on  sale
> this month if your get their coupon book mailing.  For $1.49 it  may be
> worth a try.  The depth of the gap has me tempted to try to get  something
> else way
> up in the gap before trying to force sealant in.   On Muireann it looks as 
> if
> the sealant was in general only intruded about  halfway up the gap.  I could
> probably push something up higher to help  serve as a further water
> intrusion deterrent, maybe rope caulk, if that's  still around, or teflon
> valve stem rope.  Heck, even 1/8" inch nylon  or PP cording would slow down
> any water intrusion that got by the sealant  and maybe turn what would have
> been a "squirt" from burying the bow into a  trickle.  Oh well, plenty of
> time to think about that while I clean  out as much of the old sealant as I
> can.  
> 
> 
> 
> -----
> Mike  Cheung
> s/v Muireann
> --
> View this message in  context:
> http://rhodes-22.1065344.n5.nabble.com/hull-deck-joint-reseal-questions-tp45
> 504p45529.html
> Sent  from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at  Nabble.com.
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