[Rhodes22-list] Ballast
The Rhodes 22 Email List
rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Thu Apr 2 10:48:53 EDT 2015
How many Rhodies have added ballast? If so where and how much?
Bob (palatka)
> On Apr 1, 2015, at 8:49 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>
> I have a 1996 R22 (recycled 2012). Last spring I placed seven 26 lb. lead
> bricks (2" x 4"x 8") alongside and forward of the centerboard trunk. I
> cannot really gauge the effect since there are so many variables affecting
> how a sailboat responds to steadily increasing windspeeds or to a gust. If
> I add any more ballast I would, per Stan, place it father forward, on the
> centerline just aft of the vee berth bulkhead and as low as possible.
> Richard Arking R22 on Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn NY
>
> On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 5:10 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List <
> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>
>> The boat is right beside me here in Ontario near Kingston. Want a beautiful
>> 55' steel cutter hull?
>>
>> Graham
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 22
>> Email
>> List
>> Sent: April-01-15 3:36 PM
>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Ballast
>>
>>
>> Graham,
>>
>> Lead will soon be the new gold.
>> Not really... but it IS getting harder to find with the latest EPA
>> regulations. Where is your friend's boat?
>>
>> Todd T.
>>
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 at 2:05 PM
>> From: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> To: "'The Rhodes 22 Email List'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Ballast
>> Sometime in 1976 the internal ballast changed from Steel bricks to
>> cement. I
>> don't know what is used today. Steel is obviously much denser than
>> cement so
>> I expect that the actual ballast weight is greater with steel than
>> with the
>> cement unless the volume of the cement is considerably larger.
>> My neighbour has given up on the construction of a 55' steel cutter
>> after
>> working on it for 40 years - on and off. As a result he has tons
>> (literally)
>> of lead bricks and I can buy some for Agile. I had thought about
>> placing
>> some on either side of the centreboard housing and forward along with
>> the
>> steel bricks that are there already.
>> Does anyone have any thoughts about how one might determine where and
>> how
>> much ballast might be added? At this point I am thinking that I will
>> place
>> some bricks loose in the bilge and play with the distribution until it
>> feels
>> right - but that could constitute a lot of fiddling. All that time
>> spent
>> sailing detracts substantially from the time I have available to work
>> on the
>> repair of the boat.
>> Graham
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 22
>> Email
>> List
>> Sent: April-01-15 1:32 PM
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Permission to come aboard?
>> Graham:
>> Ok. I didnt add the extra ballast. It had it already. I called it
>> "extra"
>> since i consider needing to add internal ballast a design flaw or a
>> building
>> shortcut (i.e. Concrete instead of lead). But hey i am not criticizing
>> the
>> boat, just explaining my word choice.
>> Yes i too am adding LIMBER HOLES too. At 4 am i woke up remembering
>> that i
>> called them "stringer scuppers" yesterday which isnt nautically
>> correct!
>> Hahaha!
>> For the main center floor stringers i cut them from 2x6" pressure
>> treated
>> lumber. The wider area will make adding the floor and bilge inspection
>> hatch easier and acually was cheaper than 5/4" deck wood.
>> I am still deciding what to do about my hull/deck joint. Access is
>> good
>> from inside at this point. I found these great caulk gun tubes of two
>> part
>> epoxy that mix as you pump it that i should be able to use to easily
>> fill
>> the joint. We will see! The other option is the Np-1 Rummy
>> recommended.
>> I think that there is also a fair amount of water that finds its way
>> into
>> the bilge from condensation. I am designing a solar powered bilge
>> dryer.
>> Another "we will see"
>> Another idea is that i am adding floor vents to keep air moving under
>> the
>> floor boards and to allow the bilge to dry.
>> Bob (palatka)
>>>> On Apr 1, 2015, at 1:12 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Bob:
>>>
>>> When you say that you installed "extra" ballast I am wondering what
>>> was there already and how much you added. I would like to add some
>>> myself but don't know how much or where exactly to put it.
>>>
>>> The stringers under the settee and galley rotted out for me as well.
>>> Water gets trapped there - especially under the galley where it is
>> not
>>> visible and rots out the wood. The source of water for me primarily
>>> was a leaking hull deck join. I have glassed the joint so that
>> should
>>> finally end the leaks but I also put drain holes in the bottom of
>> the
>>> stringers to ensure that any water that makes its way in, and it
>> will,
>>> can drain out on its own. Further, I put an inspection hole in the
>>> bottom self of the galley so I can reach in to the space should I
>> want
>>> to check for water or retrieve anything the might fall in behind the
>>> shelf. I am also encapsulating the settee and galley stringers in
>>> multiple coats of epoxy. I am putting white Formica laminate on the
>>> face of these pieces and all other wood surfaces to give a
>> maintenance
>> free and easy to clean interior.
>>>
>>> With the floor stringers I am intending to use pressure treated deck
>> boards.
>>> A previous owner used pressure treated fence boards and while they
>>> stood up very well to rot and held to epoxy very well, being only
>> 1/2"
>>> thick did not give a sufficient area to screw the deck boards to. Of
>>> course I will be putting drain holes in them as well.
>>>
>>> Graham
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes
>> 22
>>> Email List
>>> Sent: March-31-15 10:05 PM
>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Permission to come aboard?
>>>
>>> Mine is a 1983 and is in excellent condition for a boat of that age.
>>> (I have had three 1983 sailboats and one 1982 sailboat) My deck is
>> rock
>> solid!
>>> I can see under the front of my cockpit floor and it seems to have
>>> pine boards set in the glass but not real sure. That floor is also
>> rock
>> solid.
>>>
>>> My floor rotted out most likely because it was stored with the hatch
>> open.
>>> There was one design "flaw" and it was that there were several areas
>>> that trapped water. I am making sure all water can get to the bilge
>>> pump. I am sure Stan probably puts in bilge scuppers in these
>> stringers
>> now.
>>> I am rebuilding these with pressure treated wood/plywood. I dried it
>>> out for several months so fiberglass will stick to it. I also have
>>> had good luck with waterproof construction adhesive holding it in
>>> place until the glass goes off.
>>> Oh and my extra ballast is concrete glassed over just forward of the
>>> main bulkhead.
>>> I sealed this over with fiberglass cloth soaked in epoxy when i
>> placed
>>> the main bulkhead base. I didnt want the moisture in the concrete to
>>> keep the wood wet.
>>>
>>> Bob (palatka)
>>>
>>>>> On Mar 31, 2015, at 8:35 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Bob:
>>>> Don't let me spook you. Any boat that old is bound to have some
>>>> problems but just about anything can be fixed. The trick is to not
>>>> let problems go too long - especially problems with the deck core.
>>>> Some, if not all, of the problems I identified are probably unique
>> to
>>>> my boat. I don't know whether the contractors who built the older
>>>> boats did the layup or just assembled the parts. Nor do I know how
>>>> many contractors were used and what the differences might be
>> between
>> them.
>>>>
>>>> Many of the older boats have problems with the floor stringers
>>>> rotting out - which is not a surprise given that the bilge is often
>>>> wet and the stringers are wood.
>>>>
>>>> What is the ballast arrangement with your boat? In mine I have a
>>>> stack of steel bars fiberglassed to the hull just forward of the
>>>> forward
>>> bulkhead.
>>>> Some boats apparently have cement there.
>>>>
>>>> Graham
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes
>>>> 22 Email List
>>>> Sent: March-31-15 6:55 PM
>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Permission to come aboard?
>>>>
>>>> What years were built where and by whom?
>>>>
>>>> Bob (palatka)
>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:59 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Graham - thanks for clarifying the porta-potti issue. And for
>> the
>>>>> invitation!
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't realize 76's were built by 3rd parties. That's
>> unsettling.
>>>>> I will check out my keel, bearing in mind the problems you have
>> had.
>>>>> And the other flaws you detected.
>>>>>
>>>>> Much appreciated,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jefferson
>>>>>
>>>>> On 15-03-29 3:55 PM, "The Rhodes 22 Email List"
>>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jefferson:
>>>>>> You can use a porta-pottie on Ontario waters so long as it is
>> fixed
>>>>>> in place and has a deck pump out. Most porta-potties have kits
>> for
>>>>>> this purpose. No need for a separate holding tank.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You would be most welcome if you make the trip to my place and
>> can
>>>>>> tie up at my dock given that my boat is still on the hard. I also
>>>>>> have a mooring that you can use. I am located just west of
>> Lemoines
>>>>>> Point on the north Shore of Lake Ontario.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Rhodes 22 were built under contract with 3rd parties in 1976
>>>>>> and as a result some of the construction details were lacking. A
>>>>>> few things that you might want to check on the boat that might
>>>>>> cause problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The transom rings were installed without nuts on the inside,
>>>>>> - the deck leaked where the air vent for the holding tank went
>>>>>> through the deck at the front - you may not have one if you don't
>>>>>> have a holding tank but that is a prime spot for water to make
>> its
>>>>>> way into the core.. The softness that my deck developed when
>> walked
>>>>>> on was not due to rot as I suspected but was because the deck
>> skin
>>>>>> simply separated from the core, There was minimal sealant used to
>>>>>> join the two surfaces and it simply let go. That is actually good
>>>>>> news as it is possible to reattach the core by injecting epoxy
>>>>>> under the skin rather than having to remove the deck and replace
>> the
>> core.
>>>>>> I
>>>> discovered this the hard way.
>>>>>> - The keel on my boat split open at the bottom of the keel at the
>>>>>> centreboard slot. I could only see it by laying flat on my back
>>>>>> right under the keel - a position I rarely found myself in. The
>>>>>> sharp corner seems to be the weakest point. Of course you might
>>>>>> well not have that problem and I have no idea why it developed in
>>>>>> mine, but by the time I realized that I had this problem it was
>>>>>> probably years from the time it started and a crack had spread
>> all
>>>>>> the way around the centreboard opening. I only noticed the
>> problem
>>>>>> when I saw some of the internal filling hanging from the keel. I
>>>>>> suspect that some water got into the keel and froze. I discovered
>>>>>> that there were large voids in the keel where water could collect
>>>>>> in substantial volume if it found its way in. It took 3 gallons
>> of
>>>>>> resin to fill the voids that I was able to find. My advice is to
>>>>>> check it out before you launch. You probably will not have that
>>>>>> problem but given that our boats were built so close together and
>>>>>> potentially by the same builder it might be a reasonably prudent
>>> examination to make.
>>>>>> - The cap on my centreboard housing had been installed with a
>> layer
>>>>>> of fibreglass over it and the flange sealed with something like
>> 3M
>>>>>> 5200. I suspect that might have been a repair done by a
>> subsequent
>>>>>> owner but I can't be sure. It was a pain to remove the cap and
>>>>>> impossible to do so without badly damaging it.
>>>>>> - When I removed the bottom paint last summer I discovered that
>> the
>>>>>> gelcoat and even the substrate of the hull was damaged where the
>>>>>> boat sat against the front struts of the trailer. Fortunately it
>>>>>> isn't difficult to fix and the repair is ultimately covered by
>> the
>>>>>> bottom paint. I would look carefully in that area especially if
>> you
>>>>>> remove the existing paint. I repaired the glass by grinding out
>> the
>>>>>> damaged areas and replacing with multiple layers of cloth and
>> epoxy.
>>>>>> I plan to add some reinforcement to the inside of the hull this
>>>>>> summer - particularly in that region as the fibreglass is thin
>>>>>> there and dents badly on the trailer. Newer boats were built with
>>>>>> thicker hulls to address that problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just because I had these problems does not mean that any of them
>>>>>> will apply to you. But they did seem to me to be weak spots and
>> you
>>>>>> might be reassured to know they aren't a problem in your case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Graham Stewart
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The
>> Rhodes
>>>>>> 22 Email List
>>>>>> Sent: March-29-15 1:02 PM
>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Permission to come aboard?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Graham,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for the welcome. I'm gobsmacked there are only two
>> Rhodes
>>>>>> in the whole country. Throw a rock in any marina and you'll hit a
>>>>>> Catalina 22 - a very inferior design to the Rhodes to my mind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My sympathies for your major restoration. I have neither the
>>>>>> skills nor the patience and am praying that my hull is sound. But
>>>>>> it is good to know someone out there knows. I went to Queen's U
>> and
>>>>>> know Bath well. Beautiful country, and great sailing around
>>>>>> Kingston. I'd love to trailer my boat up there - going up the
>>>>>> Richelieu from Lake Champlain and then up through the endless
>> locks
>>>>>> to Lake Ontario is something I have done once and don't need to
>> do
>>>>>> again! But I read somewhere that porta-potties are forbidden on
>>>>>> Ontario lakes so I'd have to plumb in a head and holding tank or
>> risk
>> getting busted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I pulled the tarp off Patience this morning and sat in the cabin
>>>>>> taking stock until my feet froze. Bring on Spring!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jefferson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 15-03-28 12:28 PM, "The Rhodes 22 Email List"
>>>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jefferson:
>>>>>>> I am very excited to see that there may now be two Rhodes 22
>> boats
>>>>>>> in Canada. Welcome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My boat, Agile, is hull number GBX220052G76 making mine a 1976
>> as
>> well.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> number on the sail is 244. Your boat was built in May and mine
>> in
>>>>>>> July of that year so they should be almost identical. I have
>> been
>>>>>>> doing a major restoration and in the process have dissected
>> almost
>>>>>>> every part of the boat so if you need to know more about what is
>>>>>>> under the skin of the boat I should be able to tell you. I am
>>>>>>> located on Lake Ontario at Kinston.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is to great sailing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Graham
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The
>>>>>>> Rhodes
>>>>>>> 22 Email List
>>>>>>> Sent: March-28-15 10:21 AM
>>>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Permission to come aboard?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am the new owner of a '76 Rhodes, hull number GBX220092E76.
>>>>>>> Despite my admiration for the beauty and ingenuity of the boat's
>>>>>>> design I would likely not have dared to make the jump if I
>> hadn't
>>>>>>> discovered this site and the generosity and patience of its
>>>>>>> contributors. I feel honoured to join your ranks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About me: I grew up in a sailing family. Back in the dawn of
>> time
>>>>>>> when dinosaurs roamed the earth we sailed 14' Ackroyd dinghies,
>>>>>>> then Rhodes Bantams, and on to Lightnings and Flying Dutchmen
>> and
>>>>>>> most recently Flying Scots. I discovered cruising when a good
>>>>>>> friend bought a Catalina 25, and promptly came down with 2
>>>>>>> foot-itis - 25 became a Catalina 27, then a Columbia 31 and
>>>>>>> finally a Mirage 26. We sailed on Lake
>>>>>> Ontario, up the St.
>>>>>>> Lawrence River past Quebec City, and all over Lake Champlain -
>>>>>>> which is really an inland sea 100 miles long and up to 10 miles
>>>>>>> wide in
>>>> places.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then he sold the Mirage, and I thought well hell, now what am I
>>>>>>> going to do?
>>>>>>> After a lot of looking, I came across the Rhodes and fell in
>> love.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The boat: named "Patience," which feels quite appropriate
>> consider
>>>>>>> how long I looked for it. Among the papers inherited from the
>>>>>>> previous owner is the yellowed but legible order sheet for the
>>>>>>> boat in 1976, from GBC in Irvington-on-Hudson. With all the
>>>>>>> options the original owner chose the bill for a brand spanking
>> new
>>>>>>> Rhodes Continental came to $8,095. The second owner bought the
>>>>>>> boat in the early '80's andy sailed it on the Ottawa River, and
>>>>>>> then 22 years ago, so he told me, they bought a cottage on a
>> lake
>>>>>>> too small for sailing and it has remained on its trailer under
>> cover
>> ever since.
>>>>>>> I did a pretty thorough inspection with someone more experienced
>>>>>>> than I, and it seems to be in pretty good shape. All original,
>>>>>>> including cushion covers, the icebox, porta-potty and two burner
>>>>>>> alcohol stove that was standard on RC models in '76. It is
>>>>>>> equipped with a 150 genoa. The work it needs seems to be mostly
>>>>>>> cosmetic, aside from running rigging which needs to be updated,
>>>>>>> and if it doesn't sink to the bottom on launch day I'll be
>> delighted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm going to moor it on Lake Memphremagog this summer while I
>> work
>>>>>>> on it, and then on Lake Champlain. I plan to send 10% of the
>> price
>>>>>>> I paid to Stan, which isn't going to thrill him since I didn't
>> pay
>>>>>>> much, and in Canadian dollars, but seems the right thing to do
>>>>>>> anyway. I'm not sure what I'll be able to afford to buy from
>>>>>>> General Boats, given the current exchange rates and my own
>> budget.
>>>>>>> But it will be my first stop when I go shopping.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So that's me and Patience, slowly emerging from the melting
>> snow.
>>>>>>> I have about six million questions but will try not to test your
>>>>>>> patience. I can't download any attachments with "Old Nabble" in
>>>>>>> the address, and if anyone could enlighten me I will continue to
>>>>>>> scour the archives for answers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jefferson Lewis
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>>>>>>> [1]http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>>>>>>> archives go to [2]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>> archives go to [4]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>> archives go to [6]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
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