[Rhodes22-list] Bow Eye vs. Bow Cleat?

Todd Tavares tavares0947 at gmail.com
Thu Apr 23 20:22:39 EDT 2020 

I guess I must have confused you with someone else, and it may have been
the mount for a UPS, as I give it more thought. Sorry about that.
Todd T.
tavares0947 at gmail.com

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 8:18 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:

> Todd,
>
> Huh?  Why would I want to do that?
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 23, 2020, at 7:26 PM, Todd Tavares <tavares0947 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Roger,
> >
> > Didn't you link the backing plate of your bow deck cleat to the backing
> > plate of the bow eye?
> >
> > Todd T.
> >
> > tavares0947 at gmail.com
> >
> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 5:52 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> There is a real advantage to rigging the anchor line thru the bow eye
> vs.
> >> directly to the bow cleat.  The choice of the bow eye vs. the bow cleat
> has
> >> a significant effect on the anchor scope.  This is because the bow eye
> is
> >> ~1.5 ft closer to the water vs the bow cleat.  For example, suppose we
> are
> >> anchoring in 7 feet of water.  The bow eye is ~2 feet above the water
> and
> >> the bow cleat is ~3.5 feet above the water.  Suppose we let out 65 feet
> of
> >> anchor rode.  The scope using the bow eye is 65 / (7 + 2) = 7.2  The
> scope
> >> using the bow cleat is 65 / (7 + 3.5) = 6.2  A scope of 7.2 is
> sufficient
> >> for decent overnight holding with a minimum 65 foot radius swing
> circle.  A
> >> scope of 6.2 is marginal for an overnight night stay.  Sometimes, there
> >> isn’t sufficient swing room to let out more anchor rode, say if you are
> the
> >> last boat to drop the hook in a crowded anchorage.  In addition, it’s
> >> considered bad anchoring etiquette to use up all the swing room in an
> >> anchorage even if you are the first one there.
> >>
> >> Fortunately, you don’t have to tie off to the bow eye in order to get
> the
> >> scope advantage of using it.  Simply run the anchor rode thru the bow
> eye
> >> first, then up to the bow cleat, and cleat it off.  This will give you
> all
> >> the scope advantage of using the bow eye and all the ease of tying off
> to
> >> the bow cleat.  When departing, reach down and hook the anchor rode
> with a
> >> boat hook below the bow eye.  Pull the anchor rode on board, hang on to
> it,
> >> and then uncleat the rode from the bow cleat.  Easy peasy and no stress
> on
> >> the knees!
> >>
> >> I always use the bow eye in the manner described above.  There is just
> no
> >> reason not to, the extra safety margin on scope helps me sleep better,
> and
> >> I don’t annoy my fellow boaters.
> >>
> >> Roger Pihlaja
> >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>
> >> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> >> Windows 10
> >>
> >> From: Lowe, Rob<mailto:rlowe at vt.edu>
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:16 AM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>; Art
> >> Czerwonky<mailto:a_czerwonky at yahoo.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Spring Lines
> >>
> >> I must say I read that wrong.  Even though I responded bow eye, I was
> >> thinking bow cleat.  I agree with Graham's method using two lines
> running
> >> through the chocks to the bow cleat.  - rob
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> on behalf of
> Art
> >> Czerwonky via Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:03 AM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Spring Lines
> >>
> >> I agree fully with your recommendation, Graham. The bow eye is not
> >> suitable for the shock loads of mooring.  Art CzerwonkyMaryJane, Atlanta
> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> >>
> >>  On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:44 AM, Graham Stewart<gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> >> wrote:   Personally I prefer to not use the bow eye for mooring. For one
> >> thing it is difficult to reach the bow eye if you have old knees. I
> prefer
> >> to rune two nylon lines from the mooring through the chocks and to the
> bow
> >> cleat. It is much easier to attach and release and gives you two lines
> >> instead of one. I have no doubt that either the eye or the cleat is
> plenty
> >> strong. Whichever you use do not connect the boat to the mooring with
> chain.
> >>
> >> Graham Stewart
> >> Agile 1976 Rhodes 22
> >> Kingston Ontario
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> Behalf
> >> Of Lowe, Rob
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 9:02 AM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Spring Lines
> >>
> >> I can't speak for Stan, but I've never heard of a bow eye on the Rhodes
> >> giving way.  Still doesn't mean it can't happen.  I'd inspect the
> backing
> >> plate up in the V berth next time you can and see if it's snug and looks
> >> adequate.  - rob
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> on behalf of
> >> Goodness <spreadgoodnews at gmail.com>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 5:36 PM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Spring Lines
> >>
> >> I went with a mooring this year.  Stan do you think the bow eye alone
> can
> >> hold? A noreaster is rolling into my anchorage tonight!
> >> 😀
> >>
> >>>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 5:01 PM, Sean Allen <seanallen1206 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Jay (and all) as this has been really helpful.
> >>>
> >>> I've got 6 pilings in my slip. I was thinking of using two 3/8" bow
> lines
> >>> around each piling with snubbers both connected to the bow cleat, then
> >> two
> >>> 3/8" stern lines with snubbers each connected from the piling to each
> >> stern
> >>> cleat, and I think i might put spring cleats in approximately mid-ship
> by
> >>> the windows and run a 1/2" spring line with snubbers on each side
> (using
> >>> the grab rails temporarily).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:15 PM Jay Friedland <jayf401 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Sean,
> >>>> I should also add that the Tide-minders prevent any side movement in
> my
> >>>> relatively narrow slip. On the spring lines, I use heavy-duty snubbers
> >> (for
> >>>> up to 5/8” line) to give the boat some forward movement beyond the
> >> stretch
> >>>> of the lines. With the occasional excessive tides, I use the midship
> >> cleat
> >>>> adjustment along with the snubbers to keep the boat centered with
> >> tension,
> >>>> not just the extreme stretch of the spring lines.
> >>>> Jay
> >>>>
> >>>>>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Jay Friedland <JayF401 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sean,
> >>>>> It all depends on the exposure to the elements. Mel & I are on the
> same
> >>>> island but completely different factors to deal with. Mel is fairly
> >>>> protected in a lagoon, so his lines are fine for that location.
> >> Wanderlust
> >>>> is in a  narrow slip in a marina with a sea wall surrounding the
> boats.
> >> It
> >>>> has 11’ of clearance, and exposed to high winds, some wave action and
> >> up to
> >>>> 2-1/2’ of tidal change. While it’s not all visible in the attached
> photo
> >>>> (if it’s not stripped away), is the following, using all 1/2” lines-
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1) bow lines to pilings at a 90°
> >>>>> 2) spring lines to adjustable midship cleats on 1” T-tracks, 30” of
> >>>> movement
> >>>>> 3) Tide-minders on each stern line
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I’ve been through over 12 seasons of squalls, glancing hurricanes,
> >>>> excessive tides and only have to worry about other people’s boats. The
> >>>> other advantage of midship cleats is the versatility of docking in
> many
> >>>> situations. I hope this helps.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jay Friedland
> >>>>> S/v Wanderlust, ‘97
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <Screen Shot 2020-04-22 at 1.40.16 PM.png>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 1:22 PM, Sean Allen <seanallen1206 at gmail.com
> >>>> <mailto:seanallen1206 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm launching my boat in to a new slip in a few weeks and I'm
> curious
> >> if
> >>>>>> and how other Rhodes owners use spring lines? Mine only has one bow
> >>>> cleat
> >>>>>> and two on the stern.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've heard of others using the grab rail on the bulk head mentioned.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Has anyone installed additional cleats? Is that advisable?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The marina is in tidal waters (Barnegat Bay) with quite a bit of
> wake
> >>>> on a
> >>>>>> daily basis.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sean
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 5:52 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> There is a real advantage to rigging the anchor line thru the bow eye
> vs.
> >> directly to the bow cleat.  The choice of the bow eye vs. the bow cleat
> has
> >> a significant effect on the anchor scope.  This is because the bow eye
> is
> >> ~1.5 ft closer to the water vs the bow cleat.  For example, suppose we
> are
> >> anchoring in 7 feet of water.  The bow eye is ~2 feet above the water
> and
> >> the bow cleat is ~3.5 feet above the water.  Suppose we let out 65 feet
> of
> >> anchor rode.  The scope using the bow eye is 65 / (7 + 2) = 7.2  The
> scope
> >> using the bow cleat is 65 / (7 + 3.5) = 6.2  A scope of 7.2 is
> sufficient
> >> for decent overnight holding with a minimum 65 foot radius swing
> circle.  A
> >> scope of 6.2 is marginal for an overnight night stay.  Sometimes, there
> >> isn’t sufficient swing room to let out more anchor rode, say if you are
> the
> >> last boat to drop the hook in a crowded anchorage.  In addition, it’s
> >> considered bad anchoring etiquette to use up all the swing room in an
> >> anchorage even if you are the first one there.
> >>
> >> Fortunately, you don’t have to tie off to the bow eye in order to get
> the
> >> scope advantage of using it.  Simply run the anchor rode thru the bow
> eye
> >> first, then up to the bow cleat, and cleat it off.  This will give you
> all
> >> the scope advantage of using the bow eye and all the ease of tying off
> to
> >> the bow cleat.  When departing, reach down and hook the anchor rode
> with a
> >> boat hook below the bow eye.  Pull the anchor rode on board, hang on to
> it,
> >> and then uncleat the rode from the bow cleat.  Easy peasy and no stress
> on
> >> the knees!
> >>
> >> I always use the bow eye in the manner described above.  There is just
> no
> >> reason not to, the extra safety margin on scope helps me sleep better,
> and
> >> I don’t annoy my fellow boaters.
> >>
> >> Roger Pihlaja
> >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>
> >> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> >> Windows 10
> >>
> >> From: Lowe, Rob<mailto:rlowe at vt.edu>
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:16 AM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>; Art
> >> Czerwonky<mailto:a_czerwonky at yahoo.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Spring Lines
> >>
> >> I must say I read that wrong.  Even though I responded bow eye, I was
> >> thinking bow cleat.  I agree with Graham's method using two lines
> running
> >> through the chocks to the bow cleat.  - rob
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> on behalf of
> Art
> >> Czerwonky via Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:03 AM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Spring Lines
> >>
> >> I agree fully with your recommendation, Graham. The bow eye is not
> >> suitable for the shock loads of mooring.  Art CzerwonkyMaryJane, Atlanta
> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> >>
> >>  On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:44 AM, Graham Stewart<gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> >> wrote:   Personally I prefer to not use the bow eye for mooring. For one
> >> thing it is difficult to reach the bow eye if you have old knees. I
> prefer
> >> to rune two nylon lines from the mooring through the chocks and to the
> bow
> >> cleat. It is much easier to attach and release and gives you two lines
> >> instead of one. I have no doubt that either the eye or the cleat is
> plenty
> >> strong. Whichever you use do not connect the boat to the mooring with
> chain.
> >>
> >> Graham Stewart
> >> Agile 1976 Rhodes 22
> >> Kingston Ontario
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> Behalf
> >> Of Lowe, Rob
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 9:02 AM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Spring Lines
> >>
> >> I can't speak for Stan, but I've never heard of a bow eye on the Rhodes
> >> giving way.  Still doesn't mean it can't happen.  I'd inspect the
> backing
> >> plate up in the V berth next time you can and see if it's snug and looks
> >> adequate.  - rob
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> on behalf of
> >> Goodness <spreadgoodnews at gmail.com>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 5:36 PM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Spring Lines
> >>
> >> I went with a mooring this year.  Stan do you think the bow eye alone
> can
> >> hold? A noreaster is rolling into my anchorage tonight!
> >> 😀
> >>
> >>>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 5:01 PM, Sean Allen <seanallen1206 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Jay (and all) as this has been really helpful.
> >>>
> >>> I've got 6 pilings in my slip. I was thinking of using two 3/8" bow
> lines
> >>> around each piling with snubbers both connected to the bow cleat, then
> >> two
> >>> 3/8" stern lines with snubbers each connected from the piling to each
> >> stern
> >>> cleat, and I think i might put spring cleats in approximately mid-ship
> by
> >>> the windows and run a 1/2" spring line with snubbers on each side
> (using
> >>> the grab rails temporarily).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:15 PM Jay Friedland <jayf401 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Sean,
> >>>> I should also add that the Tide-minders prevent any side movement in
> my
> >>>> relatively narrow slip. On the spring lines, I use heavy-duty snubbers
> >> (for
> >>>> up to 5/8” line) to give the boat some forward movement beyond the
> >> stretch
> >>>> of the lines. With the occasional excessive tides, I use the midship
> >> cleat
> >>>> adjustment along with the snubbers to keep the boat centered with
> >> tension,
> >>>> not just the extreme stretch of the spring lines.
> >>>> Jay
> >>>>
> >>>>>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Jay Friedland <JayF401 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sean,
> >>>>> It all depends on the exposure to the elements. Mel & I are on the
> same
> >>>> island but completely different factors to deal with. Mel is fairly
> >>>> protected in a lagoon, so his lines are fine for that location.
> >> Wanderlust
> >>>> is in a  narrow slip in a marina with a sea wall surrounding the
> boats.
> >> It
> >>>> has 11’ of clearance, and exposed to high winds, some wave action and
> >> up to
> >>>> 2-1/2’ of tidal change. While it’s not all visible in the attached
> photo
> >>>> (if it’s not stripped away), is the following, using all 1/2” lines-
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1) bow lines to pilings at a 90°
> >>>>> 2) spring lines to adjustable midship cleats on 1” T-tracks, 30” of
> >>>> movement
> >>>>> 3) Tide-minders on each stern line
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I’ve been through over 12 seasons of squalls, glancing hurricanes,
> >>>> excessive tides and only have to worry about other people’s boats. The
> >>>> other advantage of midship cleats is the versatility of docking in
> many
> >>>> situations. I hope this helps.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jay Friedland
> >>>>> S/v Wanderlust, ‘97
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <Screen Shot 2020-04-22 at 1.40.16 PM.png>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 1:22 PM, Sean Allen <seanallen1206 at gmail.com
> >>>> <mailto:seanallen1206 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm launching my boat in to a new slip in a few weeks and I'm
> curious
> >> if
> >>>>>> and how other Rhodes owners use spring lines? Mine only has one bow
> >>>> cleat
> >>>>>> and two on the stern.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've heard of others using the grab rail on the bulk head mentioned.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Has anyone installed additional cleats? Is that advisable?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The marina is in tidal waters (Barnegat Bay) with quite a bit of
> wake
> >>>> on a
> >>>>>> daily basis.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sean
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
>

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