[Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection

[Jesse Shumaker]

Mark, thanks for the tip and link regarding the cutting oil.

Jesse Shumaker
S/V Zephyr

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:06 AM Mark Whipple <mark at whipplefamily.com> wrote:

> A drill press allows you to keep a consistent angle and speed while
> carefully controlling the downward pressure. There's also less of a
> tendency for the drill bit to "walk," but I'd still use a punch to create a
> set point for the drill bit. I'd also suggest using cutting oil (fluid)
> when drilling any metal other than maybe aluminum or lead.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=cutting+oil
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:42 AM Jesse Shumaker <
> jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the tips.  I may give the step bit a try.
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 9:44 PM Graham Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I like to use a step bit to gradually drill a larger hole in metal
> > without
> > > having to change bits.
> > >
> > > Graham Stewart
> > > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> > > Kingston Ontario
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf
> > > Of Peter Nyberg
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 8:59 PM
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
> > >
> > > Starting with smaller holes and gradually expanding to larger holes is
> > the
> > > approach I usually take.  I don’t know that it actually matters.
> > >
> > > Using a drill press may help to positions holes more accurately, other
> > > than that, I haven’t noticed that it matters much over using a hand
> > drill.
> > >
> > > —Peter
> > >
> > > > On Sep 10, 2020, at 6:48 PM, Jesse Shumaker <
> > > jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I can confirm what Peter mentioned since I recently ordered mast
> > > organizer
> > > > model DH288
> > > > <
> > >
> >
> https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=40&cat1Name=Hardware&familyID=19&familyName=Halyard+Organizer+Plates
> > > >
> > > > in
> > > > preparation for fall projects.  I attached a photo of the one that I
> > > > received in the mail.  Sorry for the poor lighting in the photo.  It
> > > occurs
> > > > to me that I'll need to drill holes to fit the existing pattern on
> the
> > > > tabernacle.    It appears I may want to use a drill press and
> > > progressively
> > > > larger bits for that given the strength of the material described in
> > > > Roger's earlier post in this thread.
> > > >
> > > > Jesse Shumaker
> > > > S/V Zephyr
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 10:56 AM Peter Nyberg <
> peter at sunnybeeches.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I avoided having to cut off the tab by mounting the organizer
> > backwards,
> > > >> with the tab on the forward side.  I don’t use the tab, but it’s not
> > in
> > > the
> > > >> way there.
> > > >>
> > > >> The halyard organizer, for those who might be interested, came from
> > > Dwyer (
> > > >> www.dwyermast.com).  I just took a look at their current selection
> of
> > > >> organizers, and none appear to have a tab with a hole for mounting a
> > > block
> > > >> at the centerline; only port and starboard.
> > > >>
> > > >> Peter Nyberg
> > > >> Coventry, CT
> > > >> s/v Silverheels (1988/2016)
> > > >>
> > > >>> On Sep 10, 2020, at 10:40 AM, ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com
> >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Graham,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I actually have a modified version of Peter Nyberg’s mast step
> > > >> organizer.  I simply cut off the tab on the aft side so it wouldn’t
> > > >> interfere with the pop top slider.  Unfortunately, the 300 series
> > > stainless
> > > >> alloys have a strong tendency to work harden when they are cold
> > > worked.  It
> > > >> takes a good metal cutting band saw with plenty of coolant to cut
> thru
> > > the
> > > >> work hardened bent tab.  Then, a bench grinder and fine emory cloth
> > will
> > > >> clean up the cut and round off the sharp edges.  Having the anchor
> > > points
> > > >> on the port, starboard, and front sides of the mast is very handy.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Roger Pihlaja
> > > >>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Sent from my iPhone
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On Sep 10, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Graham Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
> >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Roger: Thanks for the thorough response. It all makes sense. I
> > wonder
> > > >> why I didn't have that ring installed on my boat. A second option I
> am
> > > >> considering is to install a mast step organizer such as the one that
> > > Peter
> > > >> Nyberg installed on his boat. I don't have a Cunningham on my boat.
> I
> > > would
> > > >> be interested in seeing what others have installed if anyone has
> > > pictures.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Graham Stewart
> > > >>>> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> > > >>>> Kingston Ontario
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> On
> > > >> Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA
> > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 8:15 AM
> > > >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Graham,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Although, at first glance, the present pop top slider design may
> > look
> > > >> sort of crude, it’s actually pretty elegant.  Remember, there are 2
> > > pieces
> > > >> of tackle that have their lower anchor points on the pop top slider,
> > the
> > > >> boom vang and the Cunningham.  The snap shackle for the Cunningham
> > > actually
> > > >> attaches to the eye strap and the snap shackle for the boom vang
> > > actually
> > > >> attaches to the ring.  This way, the force from the Cunningham,
> which
> > is
> > > >> vertical directly up the mast, is kept as close as possible to the
> > mast.
> > > >> The force from the Cunningham on the two machine screws attaching
> the
> > > eye
> > > >> strap to the pop top slider is almost entirely shear, which is the
> > most
> > > >> mechanically efficient way to load a threaded connection.  In
> > addition,
> > > by
> > > >> attaching the Cunningham to the eye strap vs. the ring, the clam
> cleat
> > > on
> > > >> the block automatically faces aft, thus facilitating ease of use
> from
> > > the
> > > >> cockpit.  Similarly, attaching the snap shackle for the boom vang
> onto
> > > the
> > > >> ring vs. the eye strap, automatically positions the clam cleat
> > downward
> > > and
> > > >> moves it aft slightly, both of which help prevent the two pieces of
> > > tackle
> > > >> from getting fouled up on each other and makes the boom vang easier
> to
> > > use
> > > >> from the cockpit.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> If the ring were simply welded onto the pop top slider, I think it
> > > >> might interfere with the pop top raising and lowering process.  i.e.
> > > When
> > > >> the pop top is raised, the 1st step is to raise the aft end of the
> pop
> > > top
> > > >> up on its support arms until the spring loaded detents lock into
> > > position.
> > > >> In this position, the front corner of the pop top might interfere
> > with a
> > > >> fixed welded ring on the pop top slider.  The present design, with
> its
> > > eye
> > > >> strap and ring, automatically folds down out of the way.  Even with
> > the
> > > >> present pop top slider design, it’s not the eye strap and ring
> that’s
> > in
> > > >> the way if you attempt to raise the pop top with the boom vang and
> > > >> Cunningham in place, it’s the two pieces of tackle and all the
> > > associated
> > > >> line.  Similarly, it’s not the eye strap and ring that tend to chip
> up
> > > the
> > > >> front corner of the pop top, it’s the lower blocks and snap shackles
> > on
> > > the
> > > >> Cunningham and boom vang that do the damage when they start flopping
> > > >> around.  A welded fixed ring wouldn’t change that.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Finally, if the ring is welded onto the pop top slider; then, that
> > > will
> > > >> be a critical weld.  There will be a lot of force on it.  I hope you
> > > are,
> > > >> or have access to, a certified welder.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Even after all these years, it’s fun to critically exam Stan’s
> ideas
> > > >> and designs that were so multifunctional.  He was way ahead of us
> all
> > in
> > > >> anticipating and solving problems.  My boat is in its 44th season
> and
> > > it’s
> > > >> been sailed hard.  The pop top slider hasn’t given a bit of trouble.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Roger Pihlaja
> > > >>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
> for
> > > >> Windows 10
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> From: Graham Stewart<mailto:gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 10:32 PM
> > > >>>> To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Roger:
> > > >>>> I am thinking that it might be worth getting the ring welded to
> the
> > > >> plate at about a 30 degree an angle rather than having it flop
> around
> > in
> > > >> the strap eye. Do you see a reason why that might not work?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Graham Stewart
> > > >>>> gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> On
> > > >> Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA
> > > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 5:24 PM
> > > >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Graham,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> The slider is held in its various positions by a hair pin clip
> that
> > > >> inserts thru holes drilled thru the mast track.  I always keep the
> > hair
> > > pin
> > > >> clip in place to hold the slider down no matter whether I have
> tension
> > > on
> > > >> the boom vang &/or Cunningham or not.  S/V Dynamic Equilibrium came
> > > rigged
> > > >> with the boom vang and Cunningham downhaul when I purchased her.  I
> > > don’t
> > > >> know if a previous owner drilled and tapped the pop top slider for
> the
> > > eye
> > > >> strap.  Or, maybe back in 1976, Stan might have offered a
> “performance
> > > >> mainsail package” that included a boom vang and Cunningham.  There
> is
> > > also
> > > >> an eye strap drilled and tapped into the underside of the boom for
> the
> > > top
> > > >> anchor point on the boom vang.  It all looks pretty professional if
> > they
> > > >> are homemade and they both serve their mainsail shaping functions
> > > >> perfectly.  Both the boom vang and Cunningham must be removed to
> raise
> > > the
> > > >> pop top.  With snap shackles, installing and removing them is not a
> > big
> > > >> deal.  A word of caution, all this hardware on the leading edge of
> the
> > > pop
> > > >> top can chip the fiberglass if they get to banging around.  I solved
> > > this
> > > >> problem by epoxying 10 gage SS sheet metal to the sides and the top
> of
> > > the
> > > >> pop top near the pointy end where it attaches to the pop top slider.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Roger Pihlaja
> > > >>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> On Sep 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Graham Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Roger:
> > > >>>>> My 76 has the same bracket except that it does not have the ring
> or
> > > eye
> > > >>>>> strap. I wonder if that was added by a previous owner. Do you
> have
> > a
> > > >> track
> > > >>>>> stop to keep the pop top down when the boom vang or Cunningham is
> > in
> > > >> use? If
> > > >>>>> it works well I might copy that.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Graham Stewart
> > > >>>>> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> > > >>>>> Kingston Ontario
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>>> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> On
> > > >> Behalf Of
> > > >>>>> ROGER PIHLAJA
> > > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 1:32 PM
> > > >>>>> To: John Carlson; The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Hi All,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I've attached a picture of the pop top slider connection on my
> > older
> > > >> (1976)
> > > >>>>> standard (i.e. non IMF) mainsail Rhodes 22.  As you can see,
> it's a
> > > >> simple
> > > >>>>> weldment.  The bent sheet metal slides up and down in the mast
> > slot.
> > > >> The
> > > >>>>> bolt attaches to a pair of brackets on the leading edge of the
> pop
> > > >> top.  The
> > > >>>>> ring is the lower anchor point for the boom vang and Cunningham
> > > >> downhaul
> > > >>>>> tackle.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> [cid:image003.jpg at 01D686AD.A5678F20]
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Roger Pihlaja
> > > >>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
> for
> > > >> Windows
> > > >>>>> 10
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> From: John Carlson via Rhodes22-list<mailto:
> > > rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 10:36 AM
> > > >>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop top connection
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The front of mine is quite rough as well. I have a picture, but
> it
> > > >> looks a
> > > >>>>> lot like yours (and I use a Mac).
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> --
> > > >>>>> John.
> > > >>>>> 2004/12 Rhodes 22
> > > >>>>> Waco, TX
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On Sep 9, 2020, at 9:26 AM, Mark Whipple <
> > mark at whipplefamily.com
> > > >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>>>> New question: I'm looking at the piece that connects my pop-top
> to
> > > the
> > > >>>>>> mast, and it looks unfinished on the forward end, like it may
> have
> > > >> been
> > > >>>>>> broken at some point. I realize there are many small differences
> > > >> between
> > > >>>>>> our boats but do yours look like this? (Sorry for the blue tape
> in
> > > >> the way
> > > >>>>>> - I removed it but then forgot to take another picture.)
> > > >>>>>> Mark
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>> Boston, MA
> > > >>>>>> 2000 R22 *Luna Mia*
> > > >>>>>> 1987 Nimble 30 *For Sale*
> > > >>>>>> 1982 Com-Pac 16 *For Sale*
> > > >>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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> > > >>>>> <
> > > >>
> > >
> >
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> > > >>>>> <
> > > >>
> > >
> >
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> > > >>>>> ttachment.jpg>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>
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