[Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications

Thu Mar 25 13:58:05 EDT 2021

Roger,

When I sail close hauled in under 10 knots, I point highest when the
traveller is all the way to the leeward end of the bar.  Only in stronger
winds do I move the traveller no tighter than midships.  So even the most
responsive traveller doesn't have the room to dump much wind.

The only use I can think of for a really responsive traveller is in a
frequent tacking situation.

Regards,

Rick Lange

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:01 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:

> Ric,
>
> I don’t understand why you think the GBI 29 Traveler is too slow to be
> useful for depowering the rig?  There is nothing to uncleat or cleat, you
> just push or pull on the control line and the traveler car moves.  It’s at
> least as fast as the mainsheet.  Again, I sail with one hand on the control
> line and the other on the tiller extension.  So, I don’t even need to reach
> for the control line.  The traveler car movement is fast, positive, and
> controlled.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
> From: Ric Stott<mailto:ric at stottarchitecture.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 12:42 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications
>
> Hi Roger
> I’ve been racing sailboats all my life and agree with everything you said
> except, the GBI traveler that I bought from Stan is not operable quickly
> enough to make it an effective and valuable tool to depower when the boat
> is overpowered.
> Maybe I don’t know how to use it correctly. I like it for what it is but
> it has limitations.
> Ric
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Mar 25, 2021, at 12:35 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA <Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Richard,
> >
> > The way the traveler is used to bring the boom to the boat’s centerline
> is the traveler car is positioned to windward and then the mainsheet is
> tensioned.  On the Rhodes 22, this means there is up to 5 feet of traveler
> bar for the car to move to leeward if necessary.  Moving the end of the
> boom 5 feet to leeward is a huge amount of depowering on the mainsail.  In
> fact, on S/V Dynamic Equilibrium, if dumping the traveler is not enough to
> keep the boat on its feet in a gust, we use that as an indication of when
> its time to reef the mainsail.  Note, if dumping the traveler is not
> sufficient, you can always uncleat the mainsheet and let it run.  But, we
> regard this as the equivalent of having the pressure safety valve pop open
> on a pressure vessel.  It’s undesirable and ugly when it happens.  The GBI
> 29 Traveler car is positively moved from one position to another by pushing
> or pulling on the control line.  You never uncleat the control line and let
> the traveler car just slide on its own.  There are several advantages:
> >
> >
> >  1.  Because the GBI 29 Traveler control lines are one continuous loop,
> there is no chance of a line getting snarled or fouled like there is when
> using the mainsheet to depower the mainsail.
> >  2.  You never have to assist the boom to move because of snarls or
> friction in the mainsheet blocks.  Manipulate the GBI 29 Traveler control
> lines and the end of the boom moves right now, every time, no more and no
> less than you ask for.
> >  3.  The end of the boom does not rise up as much as when the mainsheet
> is used to depower the mainsail.  This means there is not as much twist
> introduced into the top half of the mainsail and the mainsail does not
> interfere with the genoa as much.
> >  4.  After the gust has passed, the GBI 29 Traveler can move the end of
> the boom back to the centerline of the boat much more quickly vs the
> mainsheet (~3X less line to be manipulated).  Again there is no chance of a
> tangle or snarl and the end of the boom is already down where it belongs so
> the top of the mainsail is not twisted off.
> >
> > So, for all the above reasons, I strongly disagree with you, Richard.
> Look in any book or video tutorial on sailing fast to windward and you will
> find they agree with me.  Although the details of mainsheet travelers
> varies from boat to boat, the proper usage of them does not change.  The
> GBI 29 Traveler is a unique design that I had not encountered in a lifetime
> of sailing.  I guess that’s why Stan got a patent on it!  Once you get used
> to it, it’s a marvelous piece of equipment.
> >
> > Before you criticize again, I would ask you to try sailing with one hand
> on the tiller extension and the other on the traveler control line.  You
> will quickly come to appreciate the degree of fine control this gives you.
> It’s the sailing equivalent of the “stick and throttle” feel that fighter
> pilots like so much.  If this doesn’t change your mind; then, I guess
> nothing will.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
> >
> > From: Richard Stott<mailto:ric at stottarchitecture.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 9:42 AM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications
> >
> > When sailing to whether, the traveler is used to bring the boom to the
> boat’s centerline.
> > This improves sail shape, the relationship of the Jib/Main and ability
> to point higher.
> > It is not the tool on a Rhodes to depower the Rig in a gust - use the
> main sheet for that.
> > Ric
> > Dadventure
> >
> > Richard Stott, AIA, LEED AP
> > www.stottarchitecture.com<http://www.stottarchitecture.com<
> http://www.stottarchitecture.com%3chttp:/www.stottarchitecture.com>>
> > Office  631-283-1777
> > Cell            516-965-3164
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Mar 24, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Roger,
> >>
> >> That piece of gear is for setting your sails to the prevailing wind.
> It is
> >> too cumbersome and limited for responding to gusts.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Rick Lange
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 4:51 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Rick,
> >>>
> >>> One more question, beginner sailboats do not come equipped with
> mainsail
> >>> travelers; but, more advanced sailboats nearly all have travelers.  If
> you
> >>> don’t sail your Rhodes 22 to windward while playing the traveler, what
> do
> >>> you think that piece of gear is for?
> >>>
> >>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 4:34 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA <Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Rick,
> >>>>
> >>>> If you have so much mainsail area up that dumping the traveler is not
> >>> sufficient to keep the boat upright in a gust; then, you need to reef
> down
> >>> the mainsail.  The more efficient reefed mainsail shape will more than
> >>> compensate for the greater unreeled mainsail area that spends a lot of
> time
> >>> all twisted and luffing.  Besides, it makes you look like a real
> amateur
> >>> and it’s hard on the sail.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 4:25 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA <Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rick,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would welcome the chance to match race you.  I would be willing to
> >>> bet considerable money that your strategy is wrong and I would beat you
> >>> decisively.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 4:21 PM, Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Roger,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We're talking about sailing close hauled in a stiff breeze
> (15-20knt)
> >>> with
> >>>>>> sudden gusts that will round up the boat.  The only mainsail shape
> that
> >>>>>> matters during a gust is the shape that quickly dumps enough wind to
> >>> keep
> >>>>>> the boat on course without luffing the jib and, in the case of the
> R22,
> >>>>>> sailing flat.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Easing the main sheet is the quickest way to react while affording
> the
> >>>>>> tactile control needed to ease and recover appropriately as the
> gust
> >>>>>> varies.  In addition to being quicker than a traveller can move,
> >>>>>> sheet control is not as restrictive as a traveller in allowing
> greater
> >>> boom
> >>>>>> motion for dumping enough wind when there is a really strong gust.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> For small sloops up to 32', sailing close hauled by feeling sheet
> >>> tension
> >>>>>> is the fastest way to go.  I have sailed with totally blind crews
> and
> >>> they
> >>>>>> sail closer to the wind than many sighted sailors distracted by
> >>> watching
> >>>>>> sail shape.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Rick Lange
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 1:48 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <
> roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Rick,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My 1976 Rhodes Continental 22 came with a cable style traveler.
> This
> >>> was
> >>>>>>> not a very good setup and I soon upgraded to the GBI bar-style
> >>> traveler
> >>>>>>> that is mounted on the backstay.  This traveler was much better
> and I
> >>> used
> >>>>>>> it for many years.  However, because the mainsail trimmer needed to
> >>> be in
> >>>>>>> line with the clam cleats on each end of the traveler bar in order
> to
> >>> cleat
> >>>>>>> off the control line, it was very difficult for the helmsman to
> also
> >>> play
> >>>>>>> the traveler.  This was especially an issue when the helmsman was
> >>> sitting
> >>>>>>> up on the windward gunnel (i.e. hiking out) and the traveler needed
> >>> to be
> >>>>>>> trimmed to leeward.  GBI’s 2nd
> >>>>>>> (3rd?) generation traveler pretty much solves all these issues.
> >>> Properly
> >>>>>>> adjusted, the latest generation traveler has a built-in slip
> >>> characteristic
> >>>>>>> that will save you in an accidental gibe or a knockdown gust.   The
> >>>>>>> traveler control line is a continuous loop, which enables the
> >>> helmsman to
> >>>>>>> play the traveler to windward or leeward without leaving his hiking
> >>> station
> >>>>>>> up on the windward gunnel.  The helmsman drives with one hand on
> the
> >>> tiller
> >>>>>>> extension, the other on the traveler control line, and multitasks.
> >>> The
> >>>>>>> helmsman can feel the weather/lee helm pressure thru the tiller and
> >>> is in
> >>>>>>> the best position to adjust the traveler to optimize the weather
> >>> helm/lee
> >>>>>>> helm balance.  I’ve been sailing with the new generation traveler
> for
> >>> 3
> >>>>>>> seasons now.  If you care about boat speed and sail short handed,
> this
> >>>>>>> upgrade is well worth the price!  On a close hauled course in 10-15
> >>> knot of
> >>>>>>> wind, If you get into a drag race with another Rhodes 22 that is
> >>> properly
> >>>>>>> using  its latest generation traveler vs you using your mainsheet,
> >>> you will
> >>>>>>> fall behind by ~30-40 sec/nm.  In a PHRF race, that’s huge!  Other
> >>> than
> >>>>>>> buying new sails, there is probably no other upgrade that offers
> this
> >>> much
> >>>>>>> performance per dollar spent.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> >>>>>>> Windows 10
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> From: ROGER PIHLAJA<mailto:roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 12:12 PM
> >>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler
> >>> Modifications
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Rick,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> When you ease the traveler, the end of the boom does not rise as it
> >>> does
> >>>>>>> when you ease the mainsheet.  Thus the mainsail shape is affected
> >>> much less
> >>>>>>> when you ease the traveler vs the mainsheet.  When you trim the
> >>> traveler
> >>>>>>> back to where it was, the flow reattaches itself much quicker.
> >>> Overall,
> >>>>>>> boat speed stays higher.  That’s why you play the traveler much
> more
> >>> than
> >>>>>>> the mainsheet.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rick Lange <
> sloopblueheron at gmail.com
> >>>> Trim
> >>>>>>> the trawrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Jeff,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Why the traveller?  The sheet is so much faster and gives greater
> >>> range
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> boom movement.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Rick Lange
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 9:13 AM JeffSmith <
> jeffsmithphoto at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> When sailing to weather I like to play the traveler (as opposed
> to
> >>> the
> >>>>>>> main
> >>>>>>>>> sheet) in the puffs while sitting on the high side cockpit
> combing
> >>> with
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> hiking stick.
> >>>>>>>>> A continuous 5mm line with the core removed where it travels
> >>> through the
> >>>>>>>>> blocks on the New Traveler and possibly changing the purchase
> from
> >>> 5 to
> >>>>>>> 1
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> 3 to 1 is part of my plan. Before holes are drilled in the
> cockpit
> >>>>>>> sides to
> >>>>>>>>> accomodate turning blocks to lead the continuous line forward
> >>> around the
> >>>>>>>>> perimeter of the cockpit, I would welcome input.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -----
> >>>>>>>>> Jeff Smith
> >>>>>>>>> 2009 R22 #101 RADIANT
> >>>>>>>>> Atlantic Highlands Municpal Harbor
> >>>>>>>>> Atlantic Highlands, NJ
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Sent from: http://rhodes-22.1065344.n5.nabble.com/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >
>
>